I suspect I broke my timing chain. Who makes the strongest one?
05-28-2006, 09:24 AM
#1
Drifting
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I suspect I broke my timing chain. Who makes the strongest one?
I think mine broke yesterday and I'm hoping nothing else internally went with it. The car made a popping sound and then the motor cut off. The code I get is camshaft sensor and there are no bad noises like metal hitting metal when I start it, other than the flywheel turning the crank sounding somewhat strange and no firing. I tried resetting the code without effect. I guess it's possible the camshaft retainer loosened and the cam backed out, but that wouldn't explain the whole event as well as the chain breaking.
Who makes the best replacement chain set without spending $$$ as I don't want this to happen again.
Who makes the best replacement chain set without spending $$$ as I don't want this to happen again.
Last edited by Dr Chill; 05-28-2006 at 09:26 AM.
05-28-2006, 10:02 AM
#2
Team Owner
OH man Doc say it aint so....
I can't help with the correct part, just hope the repair goes smoothly and your back on track quickly. 
I can't help with the correct part, just hope the repair goes smoothly and your back on track quickly.
05-28-2006, 10:58 AM
#3
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
Originally Posted by Dr Chill
I'm hoping nothing else internally went with it.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm ...valves that are down when the timing chain breaks will hit the pistons as you try to crank it , but it will never start. This is basic automotive knowlege. So you have some bent valves for sure.
Last edited by Evil-Twin; 05-28-2006 at 11:05 AM.
05-28-2006, 11:06 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
Unless you are running deeply notched pistons and a low lift cam you will have bent valves along with a failed timing chain. Pull a valve cover and engage the stater to see if the valves are moving as the crank rotates. If you are running an LS1/6 based engine there are several double roller timing chains available. I have used the Rollmaster with no problems. If you are running an LS2 based engine there is no double roller chain on the market yet although I have heard that one is coming soon.
I have failed two timing chains on my 421 cid LS2 stroker engine (road race car). The first was the stock LS2 chain with no cam chain guide. I then installed an N-Motion single roller adjustable chain set with an LS2 cam chain guide. This chain also failed and it looked like the gear teeth were worn down to points after only four DE days. It looked like the gears were not heat treated properly... I then talked to Jason at Katech and he sent me a C6R chain (single roller) that he said had never had a failure in the C6R program ($140 just for the chain)... I now have this chain with OEM gears in my engine ... Both of the failed timing chain events resulted in bent valves even though I have deep valve reliefs in my forged pistons. I would also recommend that you drain the oil and remove the lower oil pan cover and clean it and the screen so that fragments don't get into the oil pump and bearings.
Hope this helps...
Shirl Dickey
I have failed two timing chains on my 421 cid LS2 stroker engine (road race car). The first was the stock LS2 chain with no cam chain guide. I then installed an N-Motion single roller adjustable chain set with an LS2 cam chain guide. This chain also failed and it looked like the gear teeth were worn down to points after only four DE days. It looked like the gears were not heat treated properly... I then talked to Jason at Katech and he sent me a C6R chain (single roller) that he said had never had a failure in the C6R program ($140 just for the chain)... I now have this chain with OEM gears in my engine ... Both of the failed timing chain events resulted in bent valves even though I have deep valve reliefs in my forged pistons. I would also recommend that you drain the oil and remove the lower oil pan cover and clean it and the screen so that fragments don't get into the oil pump and bearings.
Hope this helps...
Shirl Dickey
05-28-2006, 11:51 AM
#5
Premium Supporting Vendor
Dr Chill,
Unfortunately, as mentioned above, I can confirm the LS1/6 is an interference motor. I lost a timing chain in a race early in the 04 season. I believe I was lucky in that I only lost six valves:
Amazingly, nothing else was damaged including the pistons. My brother-in-law rebuilt the engine for me and had a race shop do a valve job on the heads. I ended up winning the SCCA Midwest Division T1 title with that rebuilt motor.
To confirm mine had a broken timing chain, I took off a valve cover and turned over the motor and noted that none of the valves moved.
Can't help you with aftermarket timing chains, but I did change mine out with a slightly heavier duty GM chain that I believe is used in the 04 LSx motors and I put a dampner in the V of the timing chain which is supposed to help prevent stresses on the chain by keeping it from curling into the V.
Data from GM Parts direct a few years ago, so pricing is likely off:
GM PART # 88958608
CATEGORY: Belt or Chain, Engine Timing
PACK QTY: 1 CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $107.10
OUR PRICE: $74.97
DESCRIPTION: CHAIN
From the 2004 GM Performance Parts Catalog: page 106:
88958607 Timing Chain Damper, LS1, LS6
“This timing chain damper is intended for high engine speed applications and is used to improve timing chain life. Some blocks require drilling and tapping- an instruction sheet is included. “
From GM Parts Direct:
GM PART # 88958607
CATEGORY: Belt or Chain, Engine Timing
DESCRIPTION: DAMPENER
GM LIST: $117.30
OUR PRICE: $82.11
Unfortunately, as mentioned above, I can confirm the LS1/6 is an interference motor. I lost a timing chain in a race early in the 04 season. I believe I was lucky in that I only lost six valves:
Amazingly, nothing else was damaged including the pistons. My brother-in-law rebuilt the engine for me and had a race shop do a valve job on the heads. I ended up winning the SCCA Midwest Division T1 title with that rebuilt motor.
To confirm mine had a broken timing chain, I took off a valve cover and turned over the motor and noted that none of the valves moved.
Can't help you with aftermarket timing chains, but I did change mine out with a slightly heavier duty GM chain that I believe is used in the 04 LSx motors and I put a dampner in the V of the timing chain which is supposed to help prevent stresses on the chain by keeping it from curling into the V.
Data from GM Parts direct a few years ago, so pricing is likely off:
GM PART # 88958608
CATEGORY: Belt or Chain, Engine Timing
PACK QTY: 1 CORE CHARGE: $0.00
GM LIST: $107.10
OUR PRICE: $74.97
DESCRIPTION: CHAIN
From the 2004 GM Performance Parts Catalog: page 106:
88958607 Timing Chain Damper, LS1, LS6
“This timing chain damper is intended for high engine speed applications and is used to improve timing chain life. Some blocks require drilling and tapping- an instruction sheet is included. “
From GM Parts Direct:
GM PART # 88958607
CATEGORY: Belt or Chain, Engine Timing
DESCRIPTION: DAMPENER
GM LIST: $117.30
OUR PRICE: $82.11
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05-28-2006, 02:58 PM
#6
Safety Car
Originally Posted by MrEracer
Unless you are running deeply notched pistons and a low lift cam you will have bent valves along with a failed timing chain. Pull a valve cover and engage the stater to see if the valves are moving as the crank rotates. If you are running an LS1/6 based engine there are several double roller timing chains available. I have used the Rollmaster with no problems. If you are running an LS2 based engine there is no double roller chain on the market yet although I have heard that one is coming soon.
I then talked to Jason at Katech and he sent me a C6R chain (single roller) that he said had never had a failure in the C6R program ($140 just for the chain)... I now have this chain with OEM gears in my engine ... Both of the failed timing chain events resulted in bent valves even though I have deep valve reliefs in my forged pistons. Hope this helps...
Shirl Dickey
I then talked to Jason at Katech and he sent me a C6R chain (single roller) that he said had never had a failure in the C6R program ($140 just for the chain)... I now have this chain with OEM gears in my engine ... Both of the failed timing chain events resulted in bent valves even though I have deep valve reliefs in my forged pistons. Hope this helps...
Shirl Dickey
05-28-2006, 07:02 PM
#8
Drifting
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Alot of rebuilds have reported to use the LS2 chain and almost all the parts from the LS7 bolt right up to the LS1 like the LS7 Clutch and fly wheel but If you are doing a high- horse power rebuild you might want to take a gander at the "other" site! ......................LS1 TECH!
05-28-2006, 08:19 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by Evil-Twin
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm ...valves that are down when the timing chain breaks will hit the pistons as you try to crank it , but it will never start. This is basic automotive knowlege. So you have some bent valves for sure.That was my fear, but I was trying to be optimistic. Your dose of reality has burst my bubble. Maybe it's time for some new cylinder headswhile I'm at it. Now I have to worry about the pistons.
05-28-2006, 09:08 PM
#10
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
Originally Posted by Dr Chill
That was my fear, but I was trying to be optimistic. Your dose of reality has burst my bubble. Maybe it's time for some new cylinder headswhile I'm at it. Now I have to worry about the pistons.
As a racer, you must know that things break..These are life lessons, Things you will talk about fifteen , twnety years from now... I can realate to breaking things back in the early sixties.
Good luck with your action plan..A well thought out plan will only make you stronger...
Bill aka ET
05-29-2006, 07:42 AM
#11
Team Owner
I am running the Katech chain as well and was told that it has never broke on a C5R. It is a nice piece and you don't have to space the oil pump which I didn't want to do. If you are high RPM racing, get the GMPP timing chain damper as well, it helps keep the chain from trying to follow the lower gear. Neither of these parts are cheap, but well worth the money in my opinion.
bub
05-29-2006, 09:27 PM
#13
Drifting
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Well I confirmed it, the timing chain is broken. I cranked the starter with the valve covers off and the valvetrain didn't move. I'm looking for heads now (on a budget) and am praying the pistons are ok.
05-29-2006, 11:02 PM
#14
Premium Supporting Vendor
Originally Posted by Dr Chill
Well I confirmed it, the timing chain is broken. I cranked the starter with the valve covers off and the valvetrain didn't move. I'm looking for heads now (on a budget) and am praying the pistons are ok.
05-30-2006, 10:38 AM
#15
Safety Car
Thunder Racing has the chain from the C5R. It a JWIS chain, it's very sturdy, I've been running it for yrs. now with 145lbs. seat pressure and many trips to 6800 rpm with no problems. As said above it can be purchased, but for ~$170. I'd use it, it's good insurance. A double roller set invloves machine work to the pulley unless you use an aftermarket one that has been modified for a double roller. Also, sometimes the front cover need some work to give extra clearance. If you are regularly running road courses where you are at sustained high rpm's, I would also install the dogbone damper Subdriver used.
Good luck in your repairs. I hope you get things resolved quickly and inexpensively.
Good luck in your repairs. I hope you get things resolved quickly and inexpensively.
Last edited by ArKay99; 05-30-2006 at 10:44 AM.
05-30-2006, 03:30 PM
#16
Premium Supporting Vendor
Originally Posted by MrEracer
Unless you are running deeply notched pistons and a low lift cam you will have bent valves along with a failed timing chain. Pull a valve cover and engage the stater to see if the valves are moving as the crank rotates. If you are running an LS1/6 based engine there are several double roller timing chains available. I have used the Rollmaster with no problems. If you are running an LS2 based engine there is no double roller chain on the market yet although I have heard that one is coming soon.
I have failed two timing chains on my 421 cid LS2 stroker engine (road race car). The first was the stock LS2 chain with no cam chain guide. I then installed an N-Motion single roller adjustable chain set with an LS2 cam chain guide. This chain also failed and it looked like the gear teeth were worn down to points after only four DE days. It looked like the gears were not heat treated properly... I then talked to Jason at Katech and he sent me a C6R chain (single roller) that he said had never had a failure in the C6R program ($140 just for the chain)... I now have this chain with OEM gears in my engine ... Both of the failed timing chain events resulted in bent valves even though I have deep valve reliefs in my forged pistons. I would also recommend that you drain the oil and remove the lower oil pan cover and clean it and the screen so that fragments don't get into the oil pump and bearings.
Hope this helps...
Shirl Dickey
I have failed two timing chains on my 421 cid LS2 stroker engine (road race car). The first was the stock LS2 chain with no cam chain guide. I then installed an N-Motion single roller adjustable chain set with an LS2 cam chain guide. This chain also failed and it looked like the gear teeth were worn down to points after only four DE days. It looked like the gears were not heat treated properly... I then talked to Jason at Katech and he sent me a C6R chain (single roller) that he said had never had a failure in the C6R program ($140 just for the chain)... I now have this chain with OEM gears in my engine ... Both of the failed timing chain events resulted in bent valves even though I have deep valve reliefs in my forged pistons. I would also recommend that you drain the oil and remove the lower oil pan cover and clean it and the screen so that fragments don't get into the oil pump and bearings.
Hope this helps...
Shirl Dickey
Thats a C5-R chain. Selling you a C6.R chain would get me in some BIG TROUBLE. =)
