CHICAGOMARK

WHAT SHOULD I DO?????

PAY FOR LS1 EDIT OR BUY THE DIABLO PROGRAMMER?

16Again

Two completely different items here. Do you have a laptop? Do you feel comfortable re-programming your computer? Then get the LS Edit, if not Diablo Predator will be fine. Predator Performance program is pre-loaded with updates available as well as safe perimeters installed so as not to damage your engine. In other words you have a certain amount of user tuning available but, within a pre-determined area only. I was one of the Beta testers for the Predator and it really is a good unit. That being said I just ordered my own copy of LS EDIT as I feel I have out grown the Predator. Good Luck. :reddevil :cheers:

Bob

RWTD

I don't want to be biased, but... :D Really though, Bob gives good advice. Remember, if you purchase through me, I can always get you a new custom tune when you need it for your given modifications, and this can be done via email/internet.

Sincerely...

Oyea

RWTD

If you could refer to my post http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=592001 and supply me with the information I seek, I will possibly purchase through you. :D

RWTD

Oyea, done bud! ;)

SpinMonster

:withstupid:

Bink

If you are serious about building/modding your car then buy LS1Edit. :yesnod: :thumbs:

corvette184

when and if you need a custom program or multiple changes at a later date....how much do you charge????or is that a service included in the original purchase.......how do you update it on the internet??? :party: :party: 10 weeks

RWTD

I currently do not charge for custom tunes, but that may change here soon. However, with that being said, you will only be charged a one time fee if and when we decide to start charging. For possible pricing, please email me at sales@runninwiththedevil.com .

As for how they are done, we can do them in person, if you're near us, or we can do it via internet/email. I supply the user with instructions on how to do this. It's very simple, and requires about 15 minutes of your time.

Sincerely...

C52002VETTE

B4 you do anything...listen to this. I have an 02 C5 Coupe with a Vortex, Corsa Indies and Corsa X-pipe. I took it to the Dyno today so I could load my Predator software on it.

Here are the results:

Baseline before software load: 306.2 RWHP 313 RWTQ (average on 3 pulls)
After Predator base tune load: 298RWHP 307 RWTQ
Finally after screwing around for another 10 runs...I got these results after adding 5% WOT fuel increase and 5% Spark advance increase: 306 RWHP 317 RWTQ A/F ratio was averaging 12.3 at WOT, Oil temp was 205. That was the best we could get under these conditions.

The very slight gain could have been due to anything, not only software. Temp, time etc...

2 things I learned today:

1) If you are using any type of software to tune, always use a Dyno to measure the results. There is NO WAY to measure your gains/losses without it. You cannot feel the difference on such slight gains.

2) The Predator ain't worth a damn....it's a joke and a HUGE waste of money :mad I spent $560.00 CDN on the Predator and $420.00 for 3 hours on the Dyno to get these useless results. Total spent was $1000.00 for no gain. Boy was I pissed.

Buy the LS1 Edit and take it to the guys at your local Speed/Custom shop. While it is a little tougher to master, a good tuner will be able to get it going even if they have little experience with the software. They will know what to change to get you results! If you are trying to do it yourself, you need a Dyno to measure once again, so you need to take it to a tuner.

To anyone who claims that the Predator will help you...make sure that they back it up with a money back guarantee and is offering to pay for your Dyno time, otherwise it is no more than an expensive placebo. For a grand, I could have spent the money where it would have had at least some value...what a waste.

BTW...it was said last year on this board that the Predator would be updated using the web, this never happened and there is no evidence that it will anytime soon. I have version 1.02 and it needs to be sent back to Diablosport because the stupid thing has NO access to the Shift line pressure, which they admit they knew about. The owners manual, box and the site have no phone number to reach them "Contact is via e-mail only" according to the site...real nice...try e-mailing someone when you're in the middle of a Dyno run and you need support.

On the 1st load, I lost all of my gauges and got script errors. When I finally reached them, they said: Oh yeah....you need to send it in for an update, but make sure that you set your tune back to factory.....so now I have to go back to the Dyno and spend another whack of $$$$? These guys are not exactly what you would call customer service oriented and the product sucks...(I am being polite).

If you go Predator...Good luck. Any company that hides behind e-mail looses my business. They are a joke.

If you want, I will sell you my Predator cheap.


[Modified by C52002VETTE, 1:48 AM 7/8/2003]

RWTD

I see you have exhaust and intake modifications. That will cause your car to run lean, which in turn causes the pcm to lean you out (I'm sure you realize this). Curious, but why haven't you talked to your dealer about a custom tune? I normally have a tune nailed on the 1st attempt after I have some good data from the end-user. And $420 CA for dyno time? Nothing rude towards you, but I'm a bit confused as to why it took you 3 hours of dyno time to realize you weren't getting anywhere?

The Predator is a tool, just like any other flashing device. The canned programming isn't for everyone, and I tell each and every customer of mine this. If they need a custom tune afterwards, or have mods that require this immediately, then I do that for them. I can give you the same results as any other company via long distance, email, etc. Put me in person, and I can give you the same results as anyone else in person. Our software is not limited in that regard.

I'm sure you were pissed, and rightfully so, but I'm confused why you didn't choose a company that would build you custom tunes based off your mods, and/or dyno data? Many individuals do not find it unreasonable to pay for 2 to 3 runs on a dyno for anywhere from $50 to $75 (US), and report back their findings to their tuner so that they in turn can build them the proper tune based off of that, regardless of what programming system they use.

This tells me that you didn't purchase it through any reputable company. All legitimate DiabloSport dealers offer money back guarantees. As for dyno time, there isn't any tuning company that'll pay for that, unless it's included in some package deal.

v1.02 was stopped being produced LAST year. v1.03 is the latest software, and v1.04 is due out at anytime.

They never have admitted that they "knew" about shift line pressure, because at the time the equipment they were using didn't allow them to realize this. They have since updated the equipment to keep issues like this from happening again. You can't blame DiabloSport directly because the dealers continued to sell the unit under these observations. They quickly updated it to v1.03 to fix these problems, and even paid for shipping to and from for those that requested it.

Once again, I must ask why you didn't purchase through a reliable dealer? As for DiabloSport's #'s, all the new units sold have their telephone #'s included with the literature within the box. So you will know, the # is 561-908-0041. A simple call to any dealer and they could have given you the #.

The Predator didn't directly cause your guages to be lost. This can happen even at the dealership during a reflash, and even happens with Edit users. The fix for this is to pull your negative battery cable for 5 to 10 minutes, or just reprogram.

You didn't purchase your Predator from DiabloSport. Your purchased it through your dealer. You need to quit blaming this on them. You ultimately made the mistake of purchasing it through someone that hasn't given you support (or you haven't given them the chance to, one of the other!). Regardless, you're not going to find Ken's (LS1Edit) personal phone # either!

You had 30 days from the time that you bought it. I'm not quite sure who you bought it from, but irregardless, if you weren't happy with it within 30 days then you should have returned it. If the company you purchased it from didn't give you that opportunity, you should have seeked out the # to DiabloSport so you could have taken it up with them at that time. Back then, the # was easily found by asking for it from any dealer, and it still is, amongst other places (it's all in mag articles too!).

In closing, this reply isn't trying to put blame on you, or chastise you, so please do not take it as that. I'm willing to help you get where you need, even though you aren't my customer. If you want to talk about this, feel free to call me.

Kind Regards...

cthoreen

RWTD you are a great salesman! :) I wish I had bought my Predator from you.I'll relate my experiences with the Predator. You can see from my bio that
my Mods are pretty close to C52002vette's. My car baselined on a dynojet @
286hp (A4 stock) but I haven't been back since I made any of the mods. If I
get 306hp now I would be happy. When I installed the Predator performance
tune I didn't feel any increase in SOTP performance but then I didn't feel any
change with any of the other mods either. (must have a dead butt :) ) Anyways, I took the car to the drag strip this last weekend to see if I could actually see a difference in the time slips with and without the Predator tune. With the Predator tune I turned a best of 9 passes @ 13.26 103.8mph 2.06 60' 1550' density altitude. Without the Predator tune my first pass was a 13.31 and my second and final pass was a 13.25 104.96mph 2.11 60' 1408' density altitude. My 13.26 was my very first pass of the night and all passes got slower after that untill I reinstalled the stock tuneup. Air temp was slowly coming down so the air was slightly thicker but the track was also cooling off hence the slower 60' times. even so 150' change in density altitude isn't enough to consider. The increase in mph is interesting. Ultimately I think the best that can be said is that there was probably no increase in horsepower in my case with the Predator tuneup. However, we used to go out and buy
the latest and greatest carburetor expecting fantastic results only to be disappointed. (least that was my experience) :) I still think I purchased a good diagnostic tool and I am learning what makes these things run. I also just paid several hundred dollars for a cable and program (autotap,efilive) that won't do anything more than educate me and possibly show me where I can make improvements. I'll probably purchase LS1 Edit in the future once I have learned a lot more than I know now. One question. With the Predator
can you make changes to your pcm (timing,shift points,etc.) without loading the performance tuneup first? That would be cool if you could.

C52002VETTE

1st of all...I take no issue with the you James, from what I have seen of your posts you are a very decent guy. I purchased it from BR in Canada who is their CDN distributor, and I also take no issue with them either as he would help me when I ask. As a diagnostic tool, it works fine...but that was not why I bought it. I would only use that when or if I was on the Dyno trying to bring up the numbers with the software, which obviously didn't happen. What upsets me is are the false claims that this device increases performance or even the implication that the unit increases performance on the Vette. The tuner I used is very skilled at that and has seen LS! edit in action with tremendous results, but was unable to achieve anything better than the factory tune. In fact, the ECM detected engine knock on the Predator canned tune and was compensating for it. You cannot drill far enough down to make any changes that need to be made, so the tool falls far short of it's claims or implied claims as such. I could change the fan settings, but that can be achieved at far less cost than a Predator. Shift firmness did not work, unit requires an update, this to me, is poor R&D or bad QC. This was sold for GM products including Vettes as it is advertised so, at least test the thing in a Vette to make sure that it does what it is supposed to! I now have to ship the unit back at my expense across borders because they are not supplying the updates on the web as they and I believe you said they would...again I cannot blame you and this is not a personal attack on you, you were not the one that sold it to me. I do very much appreciate your concern and your willingness to help me James. But....I wasted a lot of money on the Dyno time trying to get ths thing to work as I was led to believe it should. I was very very upset and frustrated when I was on the dyno and could not easily reach them...and by the way, I bought the unit last September where at that time, the only software was 1.02. I got the 1st ones in Canada.

LS allows the user to drill down to specific points and make the changes there, not just making global changes. GM spends big money mapping the ECM at every single point, so how could we expect the Predator to even come close to something that allows each individual point to be modified? I wonder how many pro tuners would use this instead of a product like LS1 Edit... :cheers: and thanks again...sure would be nice if this site had a spell checker!


[Modified by C52002VETTE, 12:08 PM 7/8/2003]

Scubanme

I know this sounds stupid, but what exactly is an LS 1 edit? Where would you purchse this program? I am about to purchase heads and a cam and will do the install myself, but the tuning part will be a bit trickier I know. Hardware is a bit easier to deal with to me. Can you give me some good advice on tuning?
!'m in CA.

Thanks :flag

RWTD

I do understand that the canned tuning did not give you any increase, nor did adjusting the options. The canned tune that comes with it was developed for stock vehicles, basically, and it does get updated from time to time (There were variables changed from v1.02 to v1.03). Normally the pcm can compensate well enough for some basic mods, but all vehicles are different. On average I have new custom tunes written for 80+% of my customers, because the majority of my customers aren't stock, and there are even some customers that are stock that I write custom tunes for. Myself, I do not make false accusations concerning this device, nor do I guarantee any specific horsepower gain for the Gas vehicles (the Diesels are a different story altogether). I do, however, give the guarantee to my customer that the end-result will be to their likings regardless of what it requires from me for them. If they need me to have a custom tune made, I have it done.

So you will know, the only vehicles that were affected by this old glitch were 2002 vehicles. It wasn't just Vettes, it was all of the 2002 GM's that DiabloSport makes the Predator for.

If you need help, I'll do my best to work with you. I'm here. A custom tune can easily be written for you.

Let us keep in mind that Edit is not the only tuning software out there. Do not get me wrong, Edit is AWESOME, no doubt about it, and it basically started the LS1 aftermarket programming movement. The software that DiabloSport uses is made in house, by a team of 11+ degreed engineers, is called "Revolution", and is ever developing just as Edit is. It can go toe to toe with any software. Ultimately, it's not the software that will be the limit, but rather the tuner's knowledge.

Although I'd love to be at all places in the US at once to give in person custom tuning, that is not possible. Soon, it will be available in the masses to qualified DiabloSport dealers, which will give more choices nationwide when it comes to where you want to go to get your vehicle tuned in yourself. I can't state that it'll ever become available to customers of the dealers, but a VIN locked version similar to Edit is definitely not out of the question.

Kind Regards...


[Modified by RWTD, 10:13 PM 7/8/2003]

rwj383

Bottom line:
Predator = very limited tuning capabilities that require interface with product seller to get any further upgrades, free or otherwise. Time-consuming and still limited. Cost ~ $400 (??)

Edit = full tuning capabilities, period. All you'll ever need. PERIOD. Plus, If you get 3 others in on your locked version and split the total costs, comes out to $275 each. Predator what????!

If you have any common sense and desire to learn a few tuning basics, Edit is very much the clear choice. There are only 2 reasons one should buy Predator:

1. if they have NO tuning savvy or desire to learn some, or access to someone that can help.
2. do not wish to get the most out of their mods. you would only be LUCKY if you got the most out of your mods with Predator (or any other preset tuning parameters).

Warning: because Edit opens up SOO many doors for tuning, one can get themselves into trouble quite easily if they do not pay attention to how the change tables. It is a very low level program meaning it will not prompt you that you made an inadvertant huge change (via transposed #'s, for instance). If you are not educated on the use of Edit, take some time at LS1Edit.com or other forums that have Scan/Tune sections to bone up on it.

Robert Judd
GenIII Motorsports, Inc


[Modified by rwj383, 9:17 AM 7/9/2003]

Mike Mercury

]

you forgot something... "IMO"

ToplessTexan

Another item to be on the lookout for is TunerCat for the LSx family. It's still in development but expect something similar in spirit to LS1-Edit, perhaps less functionality initially, and substantially lower cost. Doesn't help any in the here and now, but hey...

In the short term, I still say LS1-Edit for all the reasons Robert pointed out above, but mostly that I want the fun of doing my own tuning rather than paying somebody else to do it. I also want to know exactly what has and hasn't been done.

Fastlane

Can LS1edit be used on the LS6? This might be a dumb question, but I'll ask anyway.

thx.

RWTD

No ? is a dumb ?, and, yes, it definitely can be used on an LS6!

Kind Regards,

James