Corvette Forum  


Go Back   Corvette Forum > C5 Corvettes, 1997 - 2004 > C5 Scan & Tune
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Register Vendors Buy a Vette Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ PhotosGarage

C5 Scan & Tune
Corvette Onboard Diagnostics, Service Advice, Dyno Tuning, Fuel Management, Tuning Software, LS1 Edit, AutoTap, Diablo

Corvette Store
 
 
C6 Parts & Accessories
C5 Parts & Accessories
Wheels & Tires
Sponsored Ads
 
 
Vendor Directory
 
Reply
 
 
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-04-2007, 12:32 PM   #1
2000BSME
CF Senior Member
 
2000BSME's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2005
Location: Beautiful South
Default Can anybody point me to information about transmission tuning???

I have got the thing working better quickly using HP tuners that I just got. I have a lot of questions about other things though, like:
1. What about the "duty cycle" of the TCC?
2. Force motor current, why is there a positive and negative table?
3. Where can I learn more about the apply/release modes of the TCC, and what exactly is being referred to by "torque converter clutch"?

I have read through the help files on HP tuners, and looked up Torque converter on "How stuff works", and "Wikipedia", I have also read the stickies on the Forum over at HPtuners, but I haven't had all my inquries satisfied yet.

Appreciate any direction.
2000BSME is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2007, 11:10 PM   #2
BowTieRocket
CF Senior Member
 
BowTieRocket's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2007
Location: Chico CA
Default Tcc

I can't provide any advice about tuning, since I am just getting into this myself. But the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) is the mechanism that, at a programmed point, locks the torque converter up so it ceases to be a torque multiplication/hydraulic device and becomes a mechanical link like a regular clutch.

The torque converter has a certain amount of slip built into it. In the early ones, this allowed use of low numbers of gears. My '57 Chevy 210 Delray has a Powerglide with two gears.

The engine's power is used to basically force fluid from a set of vanes on the outside of the converter to a set of vanes attached to the inside of the converter. As the speed of the engine increases, the force applied to the fluid as it is flung off by the vanes increases. At some point, inertia is overcome, and the inner set of vanes begin moving along with the outers. By the way, the outer vanes are attached to the case, and from there to the "flywheel" of the engine (called a "flex plate" for an automatic).

At lower speeds, the hydraulics work to amplify (or multiply) the torque at the lower end of the RPM range. Your engine may be producing 100 lb-ft of torque at a relatively low speed, but due to the effects of the hydraulics, it becomes 110, 120, 130, or so lb-ft of torque at the input shaft of the transmission. Which is attached to the inner set of vanes in the converter...

Okay. Worked well. Still does. In fact, the higher the "stall speed" of the transmission, the higher the RPMs of the engine will be before the converter becomes, effectively, a solid mechanical device due to the hydraulic force. So higher stall speed converters help automatic trans cars launch more forcefully, since the torque is multiplied by the converter.

But, at road speeds, the converter will not achieve a hydraulic "lock." They slip slightly, since you aren't really applying a huge load at freeway speed. So, in the late 1970s, the TCC was introduced. At a specific speed and set of conditions, the converter locks up through application of electronic impulse, removing the fuel mileage loss experienced in, say, my 1969 Shelby. At road speed, if I vary the throttle, the RPMs will vary disproportionately to the change in vehicle speed. I may need to add 200-300 RPM to see any increase in vehicle speed.

There are lots of arguments for and against the TCC. It increases mileage and reduces heat generation, since it eliminates the need to push lots of trans fluid around to achieve lock-up, and avoide slipping. On the whole, a good thing.

But it can lock too soon, creating a situation where you could use the benefits of the torque multiplication effect, but can't get it because the TCC is locked. On an old Dodge Magnum my mother had in the early 1980s, the clutch failed in the locked position, and you couldn't engage gears - it was like trying to shift a manual trans car without being able to disengage the clutch.

I'm guessing the TCC Duty Cycle has to do with how early/late the clutch locks up. Beyond that, I can't guess. My 1999 with the A4 does pretty well, but I need to play with the shift points. That's another set of parameters. Set too low, and you "hunt" gears (that's the term GM used relative to my 1984 Trans Am with the A4 trans, back then). You shift up and down, because your shift points are low, but the throttle position keeps kicking you back into lower gears due to slight foot position changes. Set too high, and you wind out in all the gears all the time, and if the PCM Torque Management (TM) is turned off (or even down), may bark the tires at most or all shifts.

Sounds cool but, as a 20 year old college student with a recent Shelby GT500 (A3 trans), it created problems. The factory shift kit in that car made for hard shifts, and if the pavement was wet, you got chirps and barks at any shift. To the point that, after turning onto my girlfriend's residential street and chirping the tires during an almost-closed-throttle shift, the local constabulary felt a need to follow me into her driveway, then hit the lights and siren. Her father was service manager at the dealership that maintained the police cars and, on hearing what had happened, gave John Q. Law a quick lesson on torque multiplication, wet pavement, wide tires, and being a jerk.

So the long and short of it is that the TCC is useful at highway speeds, and to reduce wear at cruise regardless of speed. But you want it out of the way when you are engaging in "spirited" driving. In fact, on some of the early TCC cars, I'd heard of owners removing the fuse or disconnecting the wires so the TCC wouldn't engage.

Doesn't help with the parameters, but may help explain why they're there...
__________________
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in the old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal-temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Tim
BowTieRocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2007, 11:36 AM   #3
hex
CF Senior Member
 
hex's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2006
Location: OKC OK
Default

The force motor current has been used by some to firm the shifts, but should be left alone, and the main and shift firmness tables should be modified for firmer shifts. Keep in mind it uses torque as the 2nd dimension, versus the old school method of TP. An easy mod there would be to multiply the main pressure table by 20%, and see how it feels.

The TCC duty cycle is setup to make the TCC lockups smooth, and you should raise the max to 99%, and you can also raise the min to 25-50% to affect a tighter operation, but don't look for a big SOTP feel there, you will feel the main line pressure firmness the most.
hex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2007, 09:45 PM   #4
2000BSME
CF Senior Member
 
2000BSME's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2005
Location: Beautiful South
Default

Thanks for the good posts. I guess experimentation is easy enough, given that flashing a tune is a matter of 1 minute or less time.

I just purchased a transgo shift kit, should I keep it for anything in particular? I've heard that some of the parts, like solenoids and such, were worthwhile to install.

What do you think?
2000BSME is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 01:37 AM   #5
tblu92
CF Senior Member
 
tblu92's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2005
Default

How I learned to tune with a shift kit is to delete all of the torque management and to also set all the shift times to "0" which puts it into the adaptive learning mode
As far as the force motor current and the duty cycles, I never touch them .
tblu92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 04:52 AM   #6
BowTieRocket
CF Senior Member
 
BowTieRocket's Avatar
 
Member Since: Feb 2007
Location: Chico CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000BSME View Post
Thanks for the good posts. I guess experimentation is easy enough, given that flashing a tune is a matter of 1 minute or less time.

I just purchased a transgo shift kit, should I keep it for anything in particular? I've heard that some of the parts, like solenoids and such, were worthwhile to install.

What do you think?
I was going to buy one - have one in my Shelby and my son's gen two Trans Am. The owner of the local top-notch trans shop (Transamatic) always used them in the pre-computer rebuilds. But when I asked, he and his foreman both discouraged the Transgo unit. They said to tune it with software.

But that's one shop's opinion. I'll take it - Max and his guys have been keeping my cars and my friends' cars running for nearly 40 years, and he's been doing this longer than all that. You may want to check with Rodney at RPM transmissions. Look for his posts - he seems to have a good handle on these newer A4s.
BowTieRocket is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 02:56 PM   #7
Mike04
CF Senior Member
 
Mike04's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2004
Location: Orange Park Fl
Default

Great info
Mike04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 04:14 PM   #8
Mike04
CF Senior Member
 
Mike04's Avatar
 
Member Since: Jun 2004
Location: Orange Park Fl
Default

Could you change the TCC setting to lock the TC in 3rd gear at 2000rpm for a dyno run? All dyno sheets that I have seen from A4s start at a much higher RPM. I'd like to see what my car does down low.
Mike04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 04:38 PM   #9
hex
CF Senior Member
 
hex's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2006
Location: OKC OK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike04 View Post
Could you change the TCC setting to lock the TC in 3rd gear at 2000rpm for a dyno run? All dyno sheets that I have seen from A4s start at a much higher RPM. I'd like to see what my car does down low.
The HP tuners scantool will allow you to lock 3rd and the converter for the dyno runs, and you can get it reasonably to 2000rpm, but it's hard on the tranny to load it hard too low. You could also change your shift tables to lock in all early, but you still need to be careful with the trans, and put it back to where it was when you're done.
hex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 04:41 PM   #10
hex
CF Senior Member
 
hex's Avatar
 
Member Since: Mar 2006
Location: OKC OK
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000BSME View Post
Thanks for the good posts. I guess experimentation is easy enough, given that flashing a tune is a matter of 1 minute or less time.

I just purchased a transgo shift kit, should I keep it for anything in particular? I've heard that some of the parts, like solenoids and such, were worthwhile to install.

What do you think?
Shoot, yeah. Transgo is good stuff, but keep it in the middle of harshness. You can get it setup too hard, and divert too much lube from the planetaries-The same problem can occur from calibration, as well. I like to get it firm, and improve the hydraulic volume, and finsh tune it with the calibration.
hex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 10:15 PM   #11
tblu92
CF Senior Member
 
tblu92's Avatar
 
Member Since: Aug 2005
Default

I agree with your tranny guy too--there is really no need for a shift kit with these A4's--but if you do install one remember to delete the TM and to set the shift times to 0 or you will develope terminal problems
ALSO on all of my A4 tunes I always delete the 3rd gear TCC lock-up anyway and only use the lock-up converter in 4th--It really cuts down on the tranny "hunting for gears" around town and I can't see any need for it
tblu92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2007, 10:15 PM
 
Go Back   Corvette Forum > C5 Corvettes, 1997 - 2004 > C5 Scan & Tune
Reload this Page Can anybody point me to information about transmission tuning???
 
 
 
Reply

Tags
a4, c5, clutch, converter, cycle, disengaging, duty, hp, lock, torque, trans, tuners


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Click for Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.5.1 PL1
Emails & Password Backup