I ran into up to 5* to 8* of knock on some runs which scares me. Judging by my narrow band O2 values it would lend me to believe I need to richen these areas up a bit (I know narrow band is not the best thing to go by, but for now its the only thing I got)
Any suggestions on how to go about modifying things with HPtuners? I haven't downloaded the bin file yet, or tinkered with anything in regards to modifying the tune.
Thanks for taking a peak at the charts. I am scanning and using narrow band O2's. I do not currently have a Wide Band O2 for scanning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuch
I ran into up to 5* to 8* of knock on some runs which scares me. Judging by my narrow band O2 values it would lend me to believe I need to richen these areas up a bit (I know narrow band is not the best thing to go by, but for now its the only thing I got)
Since the PCM ignores data from the factory NB O2 sensors during WOT (because they are not accurate below 13.5 to 1 AFR)... it's difficult to give any suggestions without any WB O2 data.
Narrowband have been used for ages, although they are not extremely accurate you can gather enough information to do mild tune on your car.
If anything it seems that I will be needing to richen up my mixture due to the small increase in flow with the mild mods that I have. My 02 values support this.
The computer does not use the O2 values at WOT because the system goes into open loop mode, and has no feedback.
I guess my next question is if I wanted to richen up the upper RPM areas at WOT, where would I do this with the HPTuners suite?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Mercury
Since the PCM ignores data from the factory NB O2 sensors during WOT (because they are not accurate below 13.5 to 1 AFR)... it's difficult to give any suggestions without any WB O2 data.
Start off tuning the part throttle areas of the VE table using the help files included with the software. It looks like you have +LTFTs at part throttle and they are being carried over into the WOT regions. This richens the mixture up as the pcm is attempting to protect the engine against a perceived lean condition. As you get the part throttle dialed in, your WOT fuel trims should drop back to zero. Don't forget to reset your LTFTs using the live controls in the scanner after you make changes to your tune. And then drive for a while (50 miles or so) to let them settle until you start logging.
Do not use your stock nb O2s to try to reach a set AFR at WOT. They will not be accurate much below 14.7 +/- and will not even report the same mV for the same AFR on a day to day basis. Leave the WOT tuning alone until you get a handle on making changes to your tune and have a wb set up.
I purchased the standard version of hpt last fall and tuned off of fuel trims until I upgraded to the EIO in March. I also installed an LC-1 at the same time. Tuning off of the fuel trims is a loooong and sometimes frustrating process compared to tuning with a wb! The wb makes tuning idle, part throttle, and WOT very quick, easy, and much more precise.
The best you can do without a w/b is to follow the HPT Help guidelines on STFT vs. VE. Then set up your PE table and tune the MAF sensor. Realistically, though, no w/b= guessing.
Bshell, that will give me an excellent start. Thanks for your input.
I will be getting an LC1 hopefully late in the season. However I would like to get myself familiar with the HPTuners software and tinker a little till then. Atleast try and minimize the knock that I am getting with a little fuel.
Going to check out the Help guidelines on STFT vs VE and starting tuning the part throttle areas of my VE table.
Thanks for the suggestions guys. As you can see im a little over anxious to start f'n things up
I don't know what you'll gain with part throttle tuning as your trims aren't off that much... and the PCM will compensate for non-WOT irregularities (well.... up to a point they will).
Quote:
The computer does not use the O2 values at WOT because the system goes into open loop mode, and has no feedback
and why do you think that is ???
it's because NB sensors are no good for WOT tuning.
If you already have all the answers... then why ask questions here
Last edited by Mike Mercury; 06-23-2006 at 07:27 PM.
Mike I didn't mean to touch on your sensative side. Its called a discussion. There are plenty of people who have tuned their vehicles with success without going wideband. (although I will be going to wideband in the future) My post wasn't to start a debate on NB vs. WB however.
Do you agree that I am getting knock due to a possible lean condition at WOT?
My current scans have led me to believe this (although I would like confirmation that I am on the right track)
If so I would like to compensate on these lean conditions within my tune, and eliminate my knock conditions. 5*-8* of knock has me concerned.
I appreciate any input, and realize that I do eventually need to suit up with a wideband.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Mercury
I don't know what you'll gain with part throttle tuning as your trims aren't off that much... and the PCM will compensate for non-WOT irregularities (well.... up to a point they will).
and why do you think that is ???
it's because NB sensors are no good for WOT tuning.
If you already have all the answers... then why ask questions here
Until I looked at your scan, I didn't realize that you had a 2003 C5. You should put that in your signature.
If you want to run an SD tune, email me your .hpt file and I'll fix it for you.
... and I should talk! I didn't attach my signature either.
BTW, the reason you're running lean, is that your intake is screwing up your stock MAF table. Use the MAF table from 6.0 litre truck. That will actually solve all your problems without any tuning.
__________________
Best regards,
Bill
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
2003 Quicksilver roadster , 1SB, F55, QF5, MN6, Z06 Ti catback, 2 cat H-pipe & air lid, Euro red/amber tails, Vette Net, and HP Tuners s/w - available for free to anyone in Calgary
Do you agree that I am getting knock due to a possible lean condition at WOT?
My current scans have led me to believe this (although I would like confirmation that I am on the right track)
If so I would like to compensate on these lean conditions within my tune, and eliminate my knock conditions. 5*-8* of knock has me concerned.
It is possible that you are too lean at WOT. But you can also get knock from being too rich due to positive fuel trimming. The pcm is designed to err on the rich side of things to protect the engine. Your WOT AFR is set from the factory to about 12.5 @ 4k rpm and it just gets richer from there up to 12.0 @ 6k.
Start working through the ve helpfiles to get the table sorted out and see what happens to kr.
I will download the HPT file this weekend and send it down to you.
Last chance I had to download it and it took FOREVERRRRR and kept switching from high to low speed mode. I was just going to delete the CAGS, and snoop around.
When I get the download I will e-mail you the HPT file.
P.S. whats an "SD tune"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billf6531
Until I looked at your scan, I didn't realize that you had a 2003 C5. You should put that in your signature.
If you want to run an SD tune, email me your .hpt file and I'll fix it for you.
... and I should talk! I didn't attach my signature either.
BTW, the reason you're running lean, is that your intake is screwing up your stock MAF table. Use the MAF table from 6.0 litre truck. That will actually solve all your problems without any tuning.
hmmm although the NB O2 isn't reliable (i will have to say this anytime I refer to the NB 02 readings now) You can see a reliable trend of them getting leaner and leaner, throughout the WOT runs.
Time to see if I can tune in my MAF and VE table....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bshell
It is possible that you are too lean at WOT. But you can also get knock from being too rich due to positive fuel trimming. The pcm is designed to err on the rich side of things to protect the engine. Your WOT AFR is set from the factory to about 12.5 @ 4k rpm and it just gets richer from there up to 12.0 @ 6k.
Start working through the ve helpfiles to get the table sorted out and see what happens to kr.
SD = Speed Density. Removes the MAF from having any input into the total airflow reading (and therefore the fuel side as well). Leaves you with just the VE table to control fueling (aside from any adders like the OLFA table, PE, COT, etc). With the MAF in the equation, you get a mixture between MAF and VE up to 4k rpm. After 4k the MAF is used as the only airflow reading, the only exception being during throttle transients when the VE table is referenced.
However, from a touchy-feely perspective, an SD tune will give you incredibly smooth increase in rpm from idle to redline, with no lurches, hiccups, etc. If you want to see what I mean, using your stock tune, accelerate from 1000 rpm to redline in 3rd gear under 1/4 - 1/3 throttle (not aggressively - it's not a race) and you'll feel poor VE and fuelling. A quality speed density tune (VE) will remove the anomilies.
If you're not ready for nirvana, I can give you a MAF-only tune that will remove most of your problems.
I did these tunes with a w/b.
Like Mike tried to tell you, what really screws up your NB sensors is heat. Under WOT they get hot, and even more inaccurate then they normally are when they're not in the 14.5 - 14.7 afr range. And it's not predictable, or repeatable. Anyone who relies on NB sensors for a tune will be re-building their engine, sooner or later, or suffering from a poor performer.
W/Bs are an inexpensive tool. An LC-1, for example, is ~ $200. You can't buy a good set of rings for that amount of money.
__________________
Best regards,
Bill
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
2003 Quicksilver roadster , 1SB, F55, QF5, MN6, Z06 Ti catback, 2 cat H-pipe & air lid, Euro red/amber tails, Vette Net, and HP Tuners s/w - available for free to anyone in Calgary
So really there are no disadvantages to going SD (or are there?), it simply enables me to skip the step of tuning in the MAF tables???
And will constantly refer to the VE tables for fueling?
What other changes does a SD tune have other then deleting the MAF?
Changed VE table?
Does the SD tune delete the MAF input from 0-redline? or only from 0-4000rpm? or from 4000rpm+?
Disadvantages of going SD:
1) By going SD you will set a dtc (P0103) which may effect you if your area does an OBDII check as a part of emissions.
2) The high octane table is no longer used. This leaves you with only one driving spark table (effectively disabling knock learning). -This could also be seen as an advantage.
Advantages of SD:
1) Improved throttle response.
2) You, the tuner, have control over the engines fueling.
There are more, but I just wanted to list a couple of each. FWIW, I've been in SD since I received hpt and since I've had my wb I've been in OLSD full time. My area doesn't require emissions checks (yet), and I see no real reason to dial in the MAF (now sitting on my workbench!).
Corvette Store
Check out my scan, suggestions for tuning needed
They will not be accurate much below 14.7 +/- and will not even report the same mV for the same AFR on a day to day basis. Leave the WOT tuning alone until you get a handle on making changes to your tune and have a wb set up. 
