Air Induction Options
08-01-2004, 05:28 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Air Induction Options
Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but I'm a bit confused regarding after-market air induction systems. You see, I'd like to add one to my stock '01 MN6, but have seem terms used on this forum and on manufacturer's web sites that I'm not sure are just interchangeable, or if they really mean something different.
For example, what does "cold air induction" refer to? To me, it means that air is being supplied to the intake from a cooler supply OUTSIDE of the engine compartment. However, many after-market systems are referred to as CAIs yet air is supplied from under the hood. Blackwing, Halltech, the mandrel-bent and y-shaped intake units with K&Ns, etc. all claim CAI, yet the only system that seems like a true CAI to me is the Vararam. Am I misinformed here?
Secondly, I've heard that K&N elements actually flow too MUCH, resulting in smaller particle bypass. True, or wives' tale? And what about what I hear about filter oil on the elements becoming deposited to the MAF wires and causing problems. I've heard this from a friend of mine who is a service director for a GM dealership, and also from a service advisor from another dealership.
Third, my understanding in that the larger the element the better, and the longer the intake path the less turbulent the air received by the engine. If this is true, then the Blackwing system would be one of the best, over the twin K&N units, Halltech, etc. For me, I think the Vararam is out of the running because although miles driven are low, my C5 is a daily driver in Northern California where it rains quite a bit in the winter.
As far as specific models are concerned, the Halltech Trap and the Blackwing models seem similar, except that the Halltech comes with a new air duct, while the Blackwing doesn't. I don't understand why I would need to replace the stock duct. They look the same. For that matter, I've seen carbon fiber replacement ducts for $400! Are they just for looks, or is there some "real" benefit?
From what I've read, I should really replace the stock accordion airbridge with a smooth one. Oh, and what about the the plastic "velocity stack", or whatever they call it...you know, the cone available for insert into the intake... does that really do anything?
Now,the Blackwing also has an optional shroud. Why is that optional? Shouldn't it be part of the kit? Is there some benefit to having/not having it?
In lieu of a ram air system like the Vararam, would at least slotted fog light screens be better than the solid factory plastic around the fog lights, or is that a fallacy that would just open my engine compartment for a more direct intake of debris?
Thank you so much for allowing me to ask so many questions! (I'm sure many of you have already seen all my other questions.) I apologize if I'm just cluttering up this forum. If I am, someone please just say so.
For example, what does "cold air induction" refer to? To me, it means that air is being supplied to the intake from a cooler supply OUTSIDE of the engine compartment. However, many after-market systems are referred to as CAIs yet air is supplied from under the hood. Blackwing, Halltech, the mandrel-bent and y-shaped intake units with K&Ns, etc. all claim CAI, yet the only system that seems like a true CAI to me is the Vararam. Am I misinformed here?
Secondly, I've heard that K&N elements actually flow too MUCH, resulting in smaller particle bypass. True, or wives' tale? And what about what I hear about filter oil on the elements becoming deposited to the MAF wires and causing problems. I've heard this from a friend of mine who is a service director for a GM dealership, and also from a service advisor from another dealership.
Third, my understanding in that the larger the element the better, and the longer the intake path the less turbulent the air received by the engine. If this is true, then the Blackwing system would be one of the best, over the twin K&N units, Halltech, etc. For me, I think the Vararam is out of the running because although miles driven are low, my C5 is a daily driver in Northern California where it rains quite a bit in the winter.
As far as specific models are concerned, the Halltech Trap and the Blackwing models seem similar, except that the Halltech comes with a new air duct, while the Blackwing doesn't. I don't understand why I would need to replace the stock duct. They look the same. For that matter, I've seen carbon fiber replacement ducts for $400! Are they just for looks, or is there some "real" benefit?
From what I've read, I should really replace the stock accordion airbridge with a smooth one. Oh, and what about the the plastic "velocity stack", or whatever they call it...you know, the cone available for insert into the intake... does that really do anything?
Now,the Blackwing also has an optional shroud. Why is that optional? Shouldn't it be part of the kit? Is there some benefit to having/not having it?
In lieu of a ram air system like the Vararam, would at least slotted fog light screens be better than the solid factory plastic around the fog lights, or is that a fallacy that would just open my engine compartment for a more direct intake of debris?
Thank you so much for allowing me to ask so many questions! (I'm sure many of you have already seen all my other questions.) I apologize if I'm just cluttering up this forum. If I am, someone please just say so.
08-01-2004, 06:07 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot
my C5 is a daily driver in Northern California where it rains quite a bit in the winter.
there are a few members on here that are in florida and run the Vararam w/o any problems and we all know how much we floridians like our rain soon i'll be adding myself to the list of floridians with it on their cars.
08-01-2004, 08:40 PM
#3
Advanced
There was a post on in the C5 Tech forums talking about the Velocity Stack. None claimed to see an improvement in HP, but I think some said it made the car run smoother.
As far as the rest of the intake goes, I think I'm gonna try the complete Vortex 400 HP package. I highly doubt it gets you anywhere close to that, but it does completely upgrade the intake up to the TB, and it's all bundled together into 1 unit.
The Halltech TRAP I'm also considering. (Doesn't boast as much HP though)
As far as the rest of the intake goes, I think I'm gonna try the complete Vortex 400 HP package. I highly doubt it gets you anywhere close to that, but it does completely upgrade the intake up to the TB, and it's all bundled together into 1 unit.
The Halltech TRAP I'm also considering. (Doesn't boast as much HP though)
Last edited by Perceval; 08-01-2004 at 08:45 PM.
08-01-2004, 11:35 PM
#4
Race Director
....a few answers.....
Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot
Forgive me for sounding ignorant, but I'm a bit confused regarding after-market air induction systems. You see, I'd like to add one to my stock '01 MN6, but have seem terms used on this forum and on manufacturer's web sites that I'm not sure are just interchangeable, or if they really mean something different.
For example, what does "cold air induction" refer to? To me, it means that air is being supplied to the intake from a cooler supply OUTSIDE of the engine compartment. That is correct. However, many after-market systems are referred to as CAIs yet air is supplied from under the hood. Blackwing, Halltech, the mandrel-bent and y-shaped intake units with K&Ns, etc. all claim CAI, yet the only system that seems like a true CAI to me is the Vararam. Am I misinformed here? If anyone refers to the Blackwing, twin cone, and Halltech Stinger-R as CAI, then they are mistaken. I did document a procedure for allowing cold air to be directed at the Halltech Stinger or Blackwing without having to slot/drill holes in the fog light panels. The cost for parts is about $25 - see Halltech's website for the PDF file.
Secondly, I've heard that K&N elements actually flow too MUCH, resulting in smaller particle bypass. True, or wives' tale? And what about what I hear about filter oil on the elements becoming deposited to the MAF wires and causing problems. I've heard this from a friend of mine who is a service director for a GM dealership, and also from a service advisor from another dealership.I doubt that the K&N filters can allow harmfull dirt particles into your engine. K&N has been around forever and I'll bet their filters are used in more cars and trucks than any other manufacturer's filters. It is true that if you over-oil your aftermarket filter, you can end up with a bad-running engine due to oil getting on the MAF wires. Fortunately, cleaning the wires will fix the problem.
Third, my understanding in that the larger the element the better, and the longer the intake path the less turbulent the air received by the engine. If this is true, then the Blackwing system would be one of the best, over the twin K&N units, Halltech, etc. For me, I think the Vararam is out of the running because although miles driven are low, my C5 is a daily driver in Northern California where it rains quite a bit in the winter.
Consider your intake to be similar in concept to your exhaust. In stock form, your engine can pump a limited amount of air. Reduce restrictions along the air's path and you MAY increase your engine's output. In a C5, opening up the exhaust does help, but the factory intake system is where the most restrictions are.You can gain but a few HP at most with an aftermarket cat-back, but with a hi-flow intake such as the Halltech Stinger-R, you can gain 12+ RWHP. Remember that the Halltech TRAP has a much longer path than the Blackwing, but that is not why it outperforms the Blackwing handilt. The Trap utilizes the "TunnelPort" for a direct blast of cold air, taken from a cutout where the front license plate cover normally resides. Also, C5 coupes and verts have an MAF screen which straightens out (and slows) the flow of air to the MAF. Z06s do not, but this omission may contribute to the display lean codes after a hi-flow intake system is installed. According to a well-respected Z06 tuner, the only way for Z06s to gain the advantages of increased flow when lean codes are thrown is to have the car dyno-tuned. BTW, the big problem with running a Vararam unit in CA is that you will have to remove it every two years before taking your car in for the smog test. As you may have heard, installation is a big pain; imagine having to do it twice, along with a disassembly every two years?
As far as specific models are concerned, the Halltech Trap and the Blackwing models seem similar, except that the Halltech comes with a new air duct, while the Blackwing doesn't. I don't understand why I would need to replace the stock duct. They look the same. For that matter, I've seen carbon fiber replacement ducts for $400! Are they just for looks, or is there some "real" benefit?I believe you're thinking of the Halltech Stinger-R, which has been proven to add a few HP more than the Blackwing, at least from the dyno tests I've seen.The real benefit comes after you decide to add a supercharger, turbo, NOS, or heads/cam. That is when the larger airbridge gives you an advantage over the stock airbridge and accordian coupler.
From what I've read, I should really replace the stock accordion airbridge with a smooth one. Oh, and what about the the plastic "velocity stack", or whatever they call it...you know, the cone available for insert into the intake... does that really do anything?
Now,the Blackwing also has an optional shroud. Why is that optional? Shouldn't it be part of the kit? Is there some benefit to having/not having it?That is probably the cold air shroud and yes, having cold air flow through the throttlebody will prevent HP loss, especially when intake air temps exceed 110F.
In lieu of a ram air system like the Vararam, would at least slotted fog light screens be better than the solid factory plastic around the fog lights, or is that a fallacy that would just open my engine compartment for a more direct intake of debris?Yes, cold air is a good thing. If you do remove or cut-up the fog light panels, you should also install screens (as in Z06 screens) to prevent bugs and other stuff from entering your engine bay. My cold air mod includes a stainless steel wire mesh that filters similarly, although this mod's advantage over fog light panel cutting is from directing the cold air directly at the filter, instead of just cooling the air surrounding it.
Thank you so much for allowing me to ask so many questions! (I'm sure many of you have already seen all my other questions.) I apologize if I'm just cluttering up this forum. If I am, someone please just say so.
For example, what does "cold air induction" refer to? To me, it means that air is being supplied to the intake from a cooler supply OUTSIDE of the engine compartment. That is correct. However, many after-market systems are referred to as CAIs yet air is supplied from under the hood. Blackwing, Halltech, the mandrel-bent and y-shaped intake units with K&Ns, etc. all claim CAI, yet the only system that seems like a true CAI to me is the Vararam. Am I misinformed here? If anyone refers to the Blackwing, twin cone, and Halltech Stinger-R as CAI, then they are mistaken. I did document a procedure for allowing cold air to be directed at the Halltech Stinger or Blackwing without having to slot/drill holes in the fog light panels. The cost for parts is about $25 - see Halltech's website for the PDF file.
Secondly, I've heard that K&N elements actually flow too MUCH, resulting in smaller particle bypass. True, or wives' tale? And what about what I hear about filter oil on the elements becoming deposited to the MAF wires and causing problems. I've heard this from a friend of mine who is a service director for a GM dealership, and also from a service advisor from another dealership.I doubt that the K&N filters can allow harmfull dirt particles into your engine. K&N has been around forever and I'll bet their filters are used in more cars and trucks than any other manufacturer's filters. It is true that if you over-oil your aftermarket filter, you can end up with a bad-running engine due to oil getting on the MAF wires. Fortunately, cleaning the wires will fix the problem.
Third, my understanding in that the larger the element the better, and the longer the intake path the less turbulent the air received by the engine. If this is true, then the Blackwing system would be one of the best, over the twin K&N units, Halltech, etc. For me, I think the Vararam is out of the running because although miles driven are low, my C5 is a daily driver in Northern California where it rains quite a bit in the winter.
Consider your intake to be similar in concept to your exhaust. In stock form, your engine can pump a limited amount of air. Reduce restrictions along the air's path and you MAY increase your engine's output. In a C5, opening up the exhaust does help, but the factory intake system is where the most restrictions are.You can gain but a few HP at most with an aftermarket cat-back, but with a hi-flow intake such as the Halltech Stinger-R, you can gain 12+ RWHP. Remember that the Halltech TRAP has a much longer path than the Blackwing, but that is not why it outperforms the Blackwing handilt. The Trap utilizes the "TunnelPort" for a direct blast of cold air, taken from a cutout where the front license plate cover normally resides. Also, C5 coupes and verts have an MAF screen which straightens out (and slows) the flow of air to the MAF. Z06s do not, but this omission may contribute to the display lean codes after a hi-flow intake system is installed. According to a well-respected Z06 tuner, the only way for Z06s to gain the advantages of increased flow when lean codes are thrown is to have the car dyno-tuned. BTW, the big problem with running a Vararam unit in CA is that you will have to remove it every two years before taking your car in for the smog test. As you may have heard, installation is a big pain; imagine having to do it twice, along with a disassembly every two years?
As far as specific models are concerned, the Halltech Trap and the Blackwing models seem similar, except that the Halltech comes with a new air duct, while the Blackwing doesn't. I don't understand why I would need to replace the stock duct. They look the same. For that matter, I've seen carbon fiber replacement ducts for $400! Are they just for looks, or is there some "real" benefit?I believe you're thinking of the Halltech Stinger-R, which has been proven to add a few HP more than the Blackwing, at least from the dyno tests I've seen.The real benefit comes after you decide to add a supercharger, turbo, NOS, or heads/cam. That is when the larger airbridge gives you an advantage over the stock airbridge and accordian coupler.
From what I've read, I should really replace the stock accordion airbridge with a smooth one. Oh, and what about the the plastic "velocity stack", or whatever they call it...you know, the cone available for insert into the intake... does that really do anything?
Now,the Blackwing also has an optional shroud. Why is that optional? Shouldn't it be part of the kit? Is there some benefit to having/not having it?That is probably the cold air shroud and yes, having cold air flow through the throttlebody will prevent HP loss, especially when intake air temps exceed 110F.
In lieu of a ram air system like the Vararam, would at least slotted fog light screens be better than the solid factory plastic around the fog lights, or is that a fallacy that would just open my engine compartment for a more direct intake of debris?Yes, cold air is a good thing. If you do remove or cut-up the fog light panels, you should also install screens (as in Z06 screens) to prevent bugs and other stuff from entering your engine bay. My cold air mod includes a stainless steel wire mesh that filters similarly, although this mod's advantage over fog light panel cutting is from directing the cold air directly at the filter, instead of just cooling the air surrounding it.
Thank you so much for allowing me to ask so many questions! (I'm sure many of you have already seen all my other questions.) I apologize if I'm just cluttering up this forum. If I am, someone please just say so.
08-02-2004, 03:52 AM
#6
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
OK, Dave, correct me if I'm wrong about understanding what you've said:
Although the Trap is designed for LS6s, it can be used on LS1s, provided some mod be done to direct air into it from a cutout at the front license plate panel. the The Halltech Stinger is designed for LS1's, and by default, uses under hood air. It's up to me if I want to try and fashion something to get cooler air to the unit. Your PDF doc details how I might do that for directing air right to the warhead. If I don't want to cut the shroud, I could use one of the aftermarket foglight panels or screens to get cooler air near the warhead, although this might not be as efficient as forcing air with something like your DIY idea.
I didn't realize that the warhead filter element was as large as it is. I found some pics under the Install link on the Halltech website that showed the element. It seems pretty close to the Blackwing element.
Do you think the one-piece airbridge that replaces BOTH the stock airbridge AND accordion hose in one unit is a good thing? I mean, I've heard some installation nightmares about the Stinger not seating easily and fitting under the hood right. Is that true, or was that a problem in its early days that's been rectified?
And what about the other kits, like the twin K&Ns, now that you've cleared up the concerns I had previously? (Incidentally, I previously had a K&N on my C4, and had no problems.) Wouldn't the mandrel-bent twin intake kit perform just as well as a Stinger?
Thanks a million for not compaining about answering questions!
Although the Trap is designed for LS6s, it can be used on LS1s, provided some mod be done to direct air into it from a cutout at the front license plate panel. the The Halltech Stinger is designed for LS1's, and by default, uses under hood air. It's up to me if I want to try and fashion something to get cooler air to the unit. Your PDF doc details how I might do that for directing air right to the warhead. If I don't want to cut the shroud, I could use one of the aftermarket foglight panels or screens to get cooler air near the warhead, although this might not be as efficient as forcing air with something like your DIY idea.
I didn't realize that the warhead filter element was as large as it is. I found some pics under the Install link on the Halltech website that showed the element. It seems pretty close to the Blackwing element.
Do you think the one-piece airbridge that replaces BOTH the stock airbridge AND accordion hose in one unit is a good thing? I mean, I've heard some installation nightmares about the Stinger not seating easily and fitting under the hood right. Is that true, or was that a problem in its early days that's been rectified?
And what about the other kits, like the twin K&Ns, now that you've cleared up the concerns I had previously? (Incidentally, I previously had a K&N on my C4, and had no problems.) Wouldn't the mandrel-bent twin intake kit perform just as well as a Stinger?
Thanks a million for not compaining about answering questions!
08-02-2004, 06:27 AM
#7
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Originally Posted by sxe60
Hey, Dave68! Great answers. You can always learn something from the forum.
Outstanding, objective and very helpful response. Your answers are one of the best reasons I've seen to overcome those who complain about repeated questions being asked on CF.
Thanks.
08-02-2004, 07:59 AM
#9
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Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot
I mean, I've heard some installation nightmares about the Stinger not seating easily and fitting under the hood right. Is that true, or was that a problem in its early days that's been rectified?
08-02-2004, 10:32 AM
#10
Race Director
Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot
OK, Dave, correct me if I'm wrong about understanding what you've said:
Although the Trap is designed for LS6s,Actually, the Trap was originally designed for C5s (including the Z06) and a newer version will be available for the C6. it can be used on LS1s, provided some mod be done to direct air into it from a cutout at the front license plate panel. The Tunnelport is not necessary, but it does provide a more direct path to the Warhead filter, compared to having the fog light panels opened up. the The Halltech Stinger is designed for LS1's, and by default, uses under hood air. It's up to me if I want to try and fashion something to get cooler air to the unit. Your PDF doc details how I might do that for directing air right to the warhead. If I don't want to cut the shroud, I could use one of the aftermarket foglight panels or screens to get cooler air near the warhead, although this might not be as efficient as forcing air with something like your DIY idea.That is correct. Even without cold air, your intake system would still be much more efficient than the restrictive OEM box.
I didn't realize that the warhead filter element was as large as it is. I found some pics under the Install link on the Halltech website that showed the element. It seems pretty close to the Blackwing element.
Do you think the one-piece airbridge that replaces BOTH the stock airbridge AND accordion hose in one unit is a good thing? I mean, I've heard some installation nightmares about the Stinger not seating easily and fitting under the hood right. Is that true, or was that a problem in its early days that's been rectified?The Stinger-R is composed of three pieces - the Warhead filter, the airbridge, and the smooth coupler. Although there have been a couple of tight-fit issues, I haven't heard of any happening to 2000+ C5 installs.
And what about the other kits, like the twin K&Ns, now that you've cleared up the concerns I had previously? (Incidentally, I previously had a K&N on my C4, and had no problems.) Wouldn't the mandrel-bent twin intake kit perform just as well as a Stinger?...probably not for two reasons: The first is total surface area of the filter elements - the Warhead filter may very well be the largest available for a C5. The second reason is that some twin intakes tubes are made of steel, which retains heat far longer than plastic runners. Virtually all of the latest intake systems are made of plastic or plastic composite. The nice thing about the twin flow intakes (if the fog light panels are open)is that the filters are positioned closer to the in-rush of cold air. However, with my cold air mod or with no cold air, the Stinger-R and Blackwing positions are more advantageous.
Thanks a million for not compaining about answering questions!
Although the Trap is designed for LS6s,Actually, the Trap was originally designed for C5s (including the Z06) and a newer version will be available for the C6. it can be used on LS1s, provided some mod be done to direct air into it from a cutout at the front license plate panel. The Tunnelport is not necessary, but it does provide a more direct path to the Warhead filter, compared to having the fog light panels opened up. the The Halltech Stinger is designed for LS1's, and by default, uses under hood air. It's up to me if I want to try and fashion something to get cooler air to the unit. Your PDF doc details how I might do that for directing air right to the warhead. If I don't want to cut the shroud, I could use one of the aftermarket foglight panels or screens to get cooler air near the warhead, although this might not be as efficient as forcing air with something like your DIY idea.That is correct. Even without cold air, your intake system would still be much more efficient than the restrictive OEM box.
I didn't realize that the warhead filter element was as large as it is. I found some pics under the Install link on the Halltech website that showed the element. It seems pretty close to the Blackwing element.
Do you think the one-piece airbridge that replaces BOTH the stock airbridge AND accordion hose in one unit is a good thing? I mean, I've heard some installation nightmares about the Stinger not seating easily and fitting under the hood right. Is that true, or was that a problem in its early days that's been rectified?The Stinger-R is composed of three pieces - the Warhead filter, the airbridge, and the smooth coupler. Although there have been a couple of tight-fit issues, I haven't heard of any happening to 2000+ C5 installs.
And what about the other kits, like the twin K&Ns, now that you've cleared up the concerns I had previously? (Incidentally, I previously had a K&N on my C4, and had no problems.) Wouldn't the mandrel-bent twin intake kit perform just as well as a Stinger?...probably not for two reasons: The first is total surface area of the filter elements - the Warhead filter may very well be the largest available for a C5. The second reason is that some twin intakes tubes are made of steel, which retains heat far longer than plastic runners. Virtually all of the latest intake systems are made of plastic or plastic composite. The nice thing about the twin flow intakes (if the fog light panels are open)is that the filters are positioned closer to the in-rush of cold air. However, with my cold air mod or with no cold air, the Stinger-R and Blackwing positions are more advantageous.
Thanks a million for not compaining about answering questions!
08-02-2004, 12:49 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Dave68
Actually, the Trap was originally designed for C5s (including the Z06)...
BTW, I suspect cleaning the warhead would require dismantling of either system, but the trap would be more painful?
Thanks again, Dave.
08-02-2004, 12:53 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ne14vettefun
I just installed the Singer-R this past weekend and thought , there is no way this is gonna fit under here, but then as I actually read the detailed install instructions from Halltech's website that says to turn it as you install it, it fits perfectly. I don't know if they changed designs but the one I just received looks like it was built for the car from the factory so no issue here!
Thanks again.
08-02-2004, 01:12 PM
#13
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Thanks for the good info Dave! though the answers weren't directed for me, helped me understand a few things! Will be investing in some intake mods after i get my Borla Stingers put on!
Will be investing in some intake mods after i get my Borla Stingers put on!
08-02-2004, 01:23 PM
#14
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Good answers by Dave68. Saved this for future reference.
08-02-2004, 01:47 PM
#15
Wil Cooksey #256
I have the Vortex RamAir, which is another true Cold Air Induction system. A hole about a foot square is cut in the fan shroud, underneath the air box. The main difference between this and the Vararam is the placement of the air intakes. Because of the front air dam the cold outside air is pressurized a little allowing the engine all the air it needs.
I have been caught is some real bad thunderstorms in Tennessee where you couldn't even see the road because the water couldn't run off fast enough. I had no problem driving in this soup, even though I was concerned about vapor lock.
In the picture below you can see the radiator thru the air box.
I have been caught is some real bad thunderstorms in Tennessee where you couldn't even see the road because the water couldn't run off fast enough. I had no problem driving in this soup, even though I was concerned about vapor lock.
In the picture below you can see the radiator thru the air box.
08-02-2004, 02:52 PM
#17
Race Director
Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot
Then, how does the trap work with an LS1? Is the warhead just placed farther down in the front? Without the ram intake near the front license plate, I would think that the stinger and trap would perform the same. Unless the trap actually comes with the pieces for the tunnel ram?
BTW, I suspect cleaning the warhead would require dismantling of either system, but the trap would be more painful?
Thanks again, Dave.
BTW, I suspect cleaning the warhead would require dismantling of either system, but the trap would be more painful?
Thanks again, Dave.
Removing the Warhead filter on the Stinger-R system for cleaning is a piece of cake - simply loosen its clamp, slide it down a half-inch and take it out.
