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Thinking about supercharging anyone regret doing this .I’ll have to change a few things on my setup but pretty bored at the power level I’m at .I’d like to get close to 600 not sure but might have my heads ported while I take it apart probably change the cam to suit the blower
I have the ECS kit and I highly recommend it. I have had it on for 6 years and 30,000 miles. The kit comes with everything that you need, including fuel, and will make 500 whp on an otherwise stock set up. I had headers, full exhaust, an MSD Air Force intake manifold, and a LS3 silver blade 90mm throttle body and made 561whp/560wtq. I have a Dewitt's radiator/dual fans on the front end and MCCleod RST clutch on the back end. I added a Texas Speed blower cam and went up to 633whp/597wtq. At this point I started having engine temp issues (I live in Charlotte, so 90+ degree days are common) so I added a Meziere electric water pump and that solved that. The power is extremely controllable, more so than a roots type blower in my opinion, with a significantly lower gas mileage penalty. I haven't broken anything, but I don't do digs at the drag strip. I'm running 325/30/19's on the rear, it's easy to break the tires loose, but it's also easy to get a good launch.
not a single regret ... power across the board, drives docile unless you step on it.
Only downside is decreased gas milage, but you don't really drive a vette for fuel economy. AA super is your best option for a c5, one of the only few kits out there that are still being made for the c5.
I've had an A&A kit on my '02Z for about 10 years. I was at 482/432 before I installed the kit. I have had no problems other than needing to upgrade the drivetrain with well over 600 wheel now. If you use it often, things will break, especially the diff. The blower is dead reliable, but to be fair, I've had the car since new, and it only has 23k miles.
EDIT: I've said before, I would have left the car NA had I known what greater power causes. I say this because it was a ball to drive with almost 500 wheel and a badass bumpy cam sound. Still would have needed a better clutch, but the diff. might not have ended it's life as twisted scrap.
I'm about to do the same with mine. I wanted to put one on my previous 01 back in 09 but bought the GF a ring instead. When we picked up this 01 Vert a few months back the first thing the wife said was "when are you putting the blower on it?"
I had my A&A with the smallest pulley installed on my 1997 with 128,000 or so on a stock motor. I had headers on it as well. I manage not breaking things by being smart when to apply the power. Standing start pulls and manual shift pulls. I try not to allow the A4 to auto downshift, that’s when thing go a little crazy. But it is funny when pulling away from someone and the look is “ ok, that’s not stock”. It’s a ball to drive and we’ll worth it.
I've had an A&A kit on my '02Z for about 10 years. I was at 482/432 before I installed the kit. I have had no problems other than needing to upgrade the drivetrain with well over 600 wheel now. If you use it often, things will break, especially the diff. The blower is dead reliable, but to be fair, I've had the car since new, and it only has 23k miles.
EDIT: I've said before, I would have left the car NA had I known what greater power causes. I say this because it was a ball to drive with almost 500 wheel and a badass bumpy cam sound. Still would have needed a better clutch, but the diff. might not have ended it's life as twisted scrap.
what all have you done to the motor to get over 600
what all have you done to the motor to get over 600
Well, it might be better to go step by step, because I made some mistakes, and changes I shouldn't have...
I went through about 4 catbacks (all used) which made the car no faster. LG longtubes and mid-pipe X was the first performance mod. Then a couple of years later I went all in on a H/C setup. One of the first sets (Trickflow) made, and had to do it all over again in a month when Brian Tooley called me about bad valve stems. When I swapped heads the 2nd time, Brian sent back an all new set that were not just CNC'd but hand finished by him. The Crane cam stayed this time, making the job a little easier. This combo tuned (by Tom Wong) made 455 RW with the small 228-232@112 cam on a Mustang Dyno. I later found a used FAST 90 and hand ported it myself (Quite easy) and bought a used Mezeire EWP. Some non performance stuff , like catch can, but nothing cosmetic. Got Tom to retune and got 482WHP and outstanding throttle response. Put in a RPS twin carbon clutch and a Tick3/4 bore master cyl. with an aftermarket slave (don't remember). This clutch combo sucked because there was almost no slipping the clutch, either on or off, which made driving difficult, but I got used to it. This is the peak of my NA build.
CHAPTER 2
Got the urge for boost, even though I never raced this car... Just a middle age crisis, I guess. Talked several times to Andy @ A&A and he came up with a kit that was put together out of spare components for a ridiculous price, to which I added a stg. 3 blower cam that lowered my DCR to a safer level for boost. Adding the SC kit; clearance issues made me go back to the stock LS6 intake, and ditch the EWP. Found out later I could have used both with a little tweaking, but oh well, another mistake. With some fueling issues with the in-tank upgrade, I added a Magnason fuel pump booster and Tom tuned it again. Drove it for about a month before shifting hard into 3rd, I turned the diff. into shrapnel. Getting Rck to build me a new one, then I also got a Pfadt diff brace, and an ECS trans brace, just for insurance. Finally came to my senses and stopped modding.
Sorry for the book, but maybe my mistakes will help someone else. Part of my blowing up my diff is the added power, and part of it was the VERY harsh clutch. I've since put in a smaller bore Tick which has helped out the harshness a lot.
what all have you done to the motor to get over 600
not quite as dramatic on mine:
i had the TVS on a stock engine + exhaust for mid-500s to the ground for 7yrs. then decided to port the blower, swap in some built higher-compression heads, & add a big cam - which squeezed out almost 150 more hp to the wheels... that said, i also did a better clutch, changed the drive shaft, rebuilt the trans, upgraded my fuel system, and did some extra cooling mods to account for it.
These cautionary tales are precisely why I won’t boost it. Lol!
I know there will never be enough, and then the repairs and upgrades…. Just gotta stay in my lane, and wave.
oh, there's certainly a conscious commitment to the addiction.
my wife supports the habit so long as i include her... shoot, right before we packed the old girl up for the winter, my wife finally asked to drive again (after 5yrs and being more nervous about how low/long the nose is than the power).
Forced induction is the most reliable means of adding power to any combustion engine.
The key to maintaining reliability is first, you absolutely must know how to tune the engine and have a plan for tuning before a single change.
Next, don't modify the motor much.
Use a low lift cam with a slow ramp rate to maintain valvetrain reliability and high RPM stability.
Do not port or modify heads. Use factory parts wherever possible. Keep the compression as low as possible for safety.
Blowers can supply a given HP worth of airflow- power is limited by the blower, not the engine. Modifying the engine does not increase power significantly, it only adds risk.
How much power can a 2L engine make with a 500hp turbo?
How much power can a 4L engine make with a 500hp turbo?
How much power can a 6L engine make with a 500hp turbo?
They are all capped to 500hp by the forced induction they chose. Modifying the engine by stroking, boring, displacment, head mods, flow mods, large lift cams, etc... only will reduce reliability.
Forced induction is the most reliable means of adding power to any combustion engine.
The key to maintaining reliability is first, you absolutely must know how to tune the engine and have a plan for tuning before a single change.
Next, don't modify the motor much.
Use a low lift cam with a slow ramp rate to maintain valvetrain reliability and high RPM stability.
Do not port or modify heads. Use factory parts wherever possible. Keep the compression as low as possible for safety.
Blowers can supply a given HP worth of airflow- power is limited by the blower, not the engine. Modifying the engine does not increase power significantly, it only adds risk.
How much power can a 2L engine make with a 500hp turbo?
How much power can a 4L engine make with a 500hp turbo?
How much power can a 6L engine make with a 500hp turbo?
They are all capped to 500hp by the forced induction they chose. Modifying the engine by stroking, boring, displacment, head mods, flow mods, large lift cams, etc... only will reduce reliability.
a a a a a a n n d . . . here we go!
dropping compression on LS engines is great when shoving as much air in the cylinders as possible and ops-testing the travel limit of your gas pedal... but for part-throttle driving (which is basically every other non-drag-race scenario & more what it sounds like the OP is looking for), it'd feel more sluggish and castrated compared to its current driving feel because you'll need high boost to get back to 'normal' cylinder pressure (which is what dictates how much power you make).
it's true that stock LS top ends are pretty decent out of the box, but there are worlds of gain to be had by pairing the right combination of heads and cam with your blower goals. that's because much more so than a turbo, a supercharger is kinda like cocaine in that it simply amplifies the power curve of whatever the engine does naturally aspirated. that said, if you have a specific power goal: you can use blower A to make that on a stock engine or smaller blower B on a modified engine... or blower A turning slower on the modified engine... or blower A on the modified engine surpassing your goal.
turbos are a different story when it comes to weighing the pros:cons of top end work.
as for the 2L, 4L, and 6L engines all using the same turbo (which this is a supercharger discussion): the 2L would be as gutless as a thanksgiving turkey until it gets wound up, while the 6L would barely be asking it to work at all & therefore much more tame with a broader powerband but tapering off earlier... but that's beside the point and more-appropriate for a different turbo thread - though i do see the point you're making about the head unit can only move so much air regardless of what it's on.
that said: yes, you can make 600hp to the wheels with a centri on a stock long block.
but you'll find many more heads/cam cars making 600+hp because it's easier on the engine & the blower if they've been optimized for higher airflow than GM gave it. experience doesn't lie.
edit:
i liken it to needing to mow 2 acres. you can do it with a 21" push mower (stock engine) or a 42" riding mower (modified engine)... both tools will totally get the job done, but the push mower will end up requiring a lot more work because it wasn't designed for that big of a yard.
Blowers love big heads and big headers. Those holes can’t be too big. Boost is a tricky thing in that it is indeed back pressure. It really likes to have a nice escape route. And compression is not a problem, provided you have the right timing and fuel octane.
Also note that blower engines can benefit from blower specific cams and stronger valve springs. Blowers actually push against the valves in a way to make it harder for the springs to close the valves. So appropriate cam and spring help the flow and valve train control.
The A&A kits are a proven winner. Maybe some upgraded valve train components, but that’s just me. Lots of guys do nothing, even run with stock exhaust and they run hard! There is lots of hp to add in heads, cam, exhaust, etc, but just try to hook up 550 WHP on the street, and you’ll probably be fine staying there.
dropping compression on LS engines is great when shoving as much air in the cylinders as possible and ops-testing the travel limit of your gas pedal... but for part-throttle driving (which is basically every other non-drag-race scenario & more what it sounds like the OP is looking for), it'd feel more sluggish and castrated compared to its current driving feel because you'll need high boost to get back to 'normal' cylinder pressure (which is what dictates how much power you make).
There is a big difference between what I recommend to people asking about forced induction for the first time, and what will I use for myself. With decades of tuning experience one would use a higher compression personally for street vehicles. However, novices asking about their first supercharger intending to utilize pump gasoline fuels asking for basic advice of how they can maintain reliability of their already-high compression natural aspirated V8 engine, the answer is simple: do not raise the compression unless you know what you are doing and getting into. Reiterate, if the engine already has a too-high compression at perhaps 10:1 being originally N/A so there is no way no how you will want to raise that regardless of benefits. To review this concept we should look at OEM forced induction engines. The average compression ratio of forced induction 2L and 3L range engines is roughly 8.5:1 compression. Those power vehicles with 25-30mpg (Silvia, Skyline, Supra) that do fine at 2L to 3L OEM forced induction 300-600rwhp applications with stock engines. If somebody will think a novice will need higher than 8.5:1 compression with two or three times the displacement to make roughly the same power to weight ratio is an idiopathic or spontaneous response. Factory engines from the 90's function well in 3000lbs daily drivers with 122 to 183 cubic inches of displacement at 300rwhp to 600rwhp using 8.5:1 compression then there is some serious oversight or lack of experience with what 122-183 cubic inches can do when setting up 300-400 cube displacement engines with higher compression in similar weight vehicles that people complain idiopathically are sluggish or irresponsive. I would suggest that the tuning efforts be reviewed and seeking help with fundamentals of setting up a drivetrain for particular applications as street or strip.
it's true that stock LS top ends are pretty decent out of the box, but there are worlds of gain to be had by pairing the right combination of heads and cam with your blower goals.
There is nothing to gain. It has never happened and will never happen and you cannot prove it has ever happened no matter what you post or think because thermodynamics is quite clear about the rules of mass in must equal mass out and the turbo or supercharger is a pump which is pumping some particular mass and whatever mass is pumped in must also exit the engine exhaust no matter what you've done to the engine will not change that fact.
that's because much more so than a turbo, a supercharger is kinda like cocaine in that it simply amplifies the power curve of whatever the engine does naturally aspirated.
Superchargers do the same thing as turbochargers. This is showing your inexperience and making me sad. I had higher regard for you than this. I am not picking on you but what did you actually think a turbo was if not a supercharger attached to an exhaust stream? They are both the same devices. The only difference is one parasitically drains kinetic energy from rotating angular velocity of the engine thereby reducing its overall power potential and the other is moved by kinetic energy of exhaust gas- making it a far superior choice as it conserves angular momentum of the rotating engine allowing it to produce more power. Superchargers are easy to install that is their only upside. Turbochargers are superior for high boost and high output conditions, superior in every other way.
that said, if you have a specific power goal: you can use blower A to make that on a stock engine or smaller blower B on a modified engine... or blower A turning slower on the modified engine... or blower A on the modified engine surpassing your goal.
You have it backwards. If we modify the engine, boost will be lower at a specific output, but that does not mean you need a smaller blower. The size of the blower "big" and "small" has nothing to do with boost. Your statement reveals a distinct weakness in knowledge how blowers function and all I can say is please read more,
Also, matchbot provides some useful exercise in establishing rules of larger vs smaller compressors, I think if you play with matchbot for a couple hours you will have a deeper understanding https://www.borgwarner.com/matchbot/
I'm not picking on you, I want you to replace me. But to do that you must be willing to work and come up to the level.
turbos are a different story when it comes to weighing the pros:cons of top end work.
No its the same compressor wheel on a turbo. They follow the same rules. Top end work drops the boost down making turbos and many superchargers less efficient if the boost is falling below roughly 15psi. Look at practically any compressor map and find the 2:1 pressure ratio line and consider the flow of the axial compressor below that pressure ratio while keeping in mind pressure ratio is a ratio of pressure between the inlet and outlet, NOT a specific boost pressure. For example I can make a pressure ratio of 2.0 by using an air filter that gives me 2.5psi of pressure drop making the intake manifold pressure of 10psi become 2:1 pressure ratio, when the compressor outlet is roughly 12psi and there is 2.5psi lost by the filter and 2psi to friction in the plumbing and intercooler.
as for the 2L, 4L, and 6L engines all using the same turbo (which this is a supercharger discussion): the 2L would be as gutless as a thanksgiving turkey until it gets wound up, while the 6L would barely be asking it to work at all & therefore much more tame with a broader powerband but tapering off earlier... but that's beside the point and more-appropriate for a different turbo thread - though i do see the point you're making about the head unit can only move so much air regardless of what it's on.
Gutless huh
2.0L
2.5L
3.0L
These are ancient engines from the 90's and all have broad usable powerbands, 2L 2.5L and 3L engines work well in the 450-800rwhp bracket at 8.5:1 compression ratio and knock down 25-30mpg at 3000lbs vehicle weight. Once you understand what 3L is capable of you will question everything you ever learned about V8 engines and re-think the entire game.
Its like you want to train to become faster, so you add weight to your body. You get used to the weight, adapt to carrying an extra 100lbs everywhere you run and live. Then, remove the weight and see the results. If somebody hands you a V8 its like you never had to work with the extra 100lbs and you are missing out training and knowledge and experience from true training of the mind and body which needs to come first before you can understand how to utilize such a large displacement to its fullest potential
I'm about to do the same with mine. I wanted to put one on my previous 01 back in 09 but bought the GF a ring instead. When we picked up this 01 Vert a few months back the first thing the wife said was "when are you putting the blower on it?"
We all need a wife like yours!! To be fair, my wife has been awfully good about my addiction, er...hobby
There is nothing to gain. It has never happened and will never happen and you cannot prove it has ever happened no matter what you post or think because thermodynamics is quite clear about the rules of mass in must equal mass out and the turbo or supercharger is a pump which is pumping some particular mass and whatever mass is pumped in must also exit the engine exhaust no matter what you've done to the engine will not change that fact.
Would a magnacgarger or A&A kit be reliable on a basically stock engine, headers, 3.73 gears, and 3200 converter. Is it safe to road course a magnacharger or A&A kit, or heads and cam kit better for a road course. I have an A4 trans. Probably fine with 450-475 at the wheels. I want to take my C5 across the country. Would you take your blown c5 or heads and cam C5 across country?
12-24-2022, 06:28 PM
Supercharging
To be fair, my wife has been awfully good about my addiction, er...hobby
