Is 220 in town running too hot?
03-18-2013, 11:49 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
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Good question, I run on a hot day 220 to 225 also, always wondered if I have a problem or if the 1999 C5 is normal operating temperature. As soon as I move it cools down. I already did a flush and a over flow replacement tank with new coolant. Even cleaned out the weeds near the top with a re-ver flush water hose from inside to outside of the radiator. That cleaned up the junk up there.... But I looked and it starting to build up again... Like driving a vaccum... Maybe got the Grand Hover model if you ask me.
03-19-2013, 09:45 AM
#42
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
Addressing a few issues
Bill, i am a little confused. You have made yourself clear in this conversation on the preferred engine temp of the LSx engine which "has a sweet spot for longevity 190-210F coolant, which in turn allows the oil to heat up to the sweet spot of 200/220F".
On 5-13-2004 you posted the installation of a 160* stat in which you use in your own car.
Link:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1547302169-post5.html
Running the 160 stat, are you saying you were willing to lose some engine longevity for more power? Just wanting clarification.
I know anything over 197F coolant will cause ecm to pull timing from signal sent from knock sensors and have a negative effect on power and mileage.
I do run 160* stats in my '02 and '09 and satisfied with them.
Bob
On 5-13-2004 you posted the installation of a 160* stat in which you use in your own car.
Link:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1547302169-post5.html
Running the 160 stat, are you saying you were willing to lose some engine longevity for more power? Just wanting clarification.
I know anything over 197F coolant will cause ecm to pull timing from signal sent from knock sensors and have a negative effect on power and mileage.
I do run 160* stats in my '02 and '09 and satisfied with them.
Bob
if the stat is 160 and the ambient is 20 F you will never get the oil above 200 unless the radiator and condenser are clogged. If you have a true 160 stat the stat wont close until the coolant temp gets down to 160.
AS far as my tolerance for some people, Ive been on this forum over 12 years, I have over 30,000 posts both private and open forum... I get as many disrespectful and clueless post in private as I do in open forum. When I left GM and came here after retiring, I spent ten hours a day here answering over 50 PMs a day and sometimes more, for 5 or 6 years before the demand dropped down . I was about to have admin up my "IN Box" when I realized I was spending way too much time here trying to help... I would have my PM box full on many days before I was able to get to them.. I have come here freely to " Help" . I do not get paid to help, I do it as pay back for a career that was exceptional and without the corvette community would have never been able to happen. Yet some people in pm seem to demand my help, as if I work here and its my job. so my time here has become limited, and idiotic banter and arguments take away my time to help people who really want help. I have no tolerance for those who want to butt heads with me... I have said many times, I do not know it all about this car, there are areas of this car that I know very little, however there are many areas that I am an absolute expert. I don't posts in threads where I'm an not confident in my knowledge, I have, on many occasions, offered an educated guess, but usually qualify it as such.. these guesses are usually given in Private message when the member is desperate for a path to a solution..
To those who I've ruffled their feathers, I apologize. When I'm harsh and you think I'm being an ***, just try to look at things from my perspective. I wish I could just suck it up, but it just isn't me.. I don't sugar coat things, and I don't have a lot of time to debate my input, especially with those legends in their own mind and the clueless. One thing that obviously "amps" me up is when people speak with authority and offer the worst possible advice. These people cost members thousands and thousands of dollars with their bad advice. Ill say it again, there are many great people on this forum who know their stuff. The trick is to find out who they are. I always say, "be careful who you listen too".... in this forum.
Bill aka ET
Last edited by Evil-Twin; 03-19-2013 at 11:29 PM.
03-19-2013, 11:43 AM
#43
Le Mans Master
Evil Twin, I am an engineer also, different field but very experienced in mechnical and electrical. I have seen a lot of your posts and I can recognize true knowledge like yours. Don't give up because of a few bad apples, we need you and others like Bill Curlee and 8Vette7 (can't list everyone) who know what they are saying to help. One day I want to post info on how to correctly go through a proper Failure Modes Analysis (Root Cause) to systematically identify possible causes and how to validate via inspection/testing to rule things in or out. The smart guys do proper assessments and diagnostics before just going into parts replacement to hopefully get it right. A lot of owners here just don't have the money to throw parts at problems, and that's you and others come to the rescue. Dadaroo (Sam).
03-19-2013, 11:07 PM
#44
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I Buy you a Beer E.T.! 
As a Newer Corvette owner, even tho the car is 15 years old, It is still my pride and joy. I will listen to your advice always. I trust that what you tell us is truth from knowledge.
I realize from listening to you that these cars are NOT for shade tree Mechanics.
You are very right on the point that people need to realize, This is NOT Grandpas 63 Buick.
These cars are very precisely tuned Machines. Which is why, IF we LISTEN to those that know their stuff, we can look to get about 300K miles out of the Engine.
I have a friend that has a 2009 Vette with 180k miles on it and he is the one that told me about this Forum.
E.T. Please know that the Majority of us on here (especially Newbies like me) really do appreciate the time and effort that you put into this Forum to answer our questions and concerns.
Without Knowledgeable People like you, this Forum would be worthless.
Thanx again!
As a Newer Corvette owner, even tho the car is 15 years old, It is still my pride and joy. I will listen to your advice always. I trust that what you tell us is truth from knowledge.
I realize from listening to you that these cars are NOT for shade tree Mechanics.
You are very right on the point that people need to realize, This is NOT Grandpas 63 Buick.
These cars are very precisely tuned Machines. Which is why, IF we LISTEN to those that know their stuff, we can look to get about 300K miles out of the Engine.
I have a friend that has a 2009 Vette with 180k miles on it and he is the one that told me about this Forum.
E.T. Please know that the Majority of us on here (especially Newbies like me) really do appreciate the time and effort that you put into this Forum to answer our questions and concerns.
Without Knowledgeable People like you, this Forum would be worthless.
Thanx again!
03-20-2013, 08:02 AM
#45
Melting Slicks
Man are you clueless.... did we have to meet emissions ? Yes but the engine was designed around the temp necessary to achieve that end. Get your head out of the 60's... this engine can easily produce a lot of oil shear by design .. running cooler only increases oil shear thus causing thermal break down and loss of top end lubricity.. so please stop trying to play engineer. Tuners want you to lower the stat so they can advance the timing, its their job to get you more HP. This is Old school.... what tuner don't tell you is by running cooler, it will cost you down the road with engine longevity.. The LSX motor was internally designed to go 200,000 miles ( a first in the automotive industry mandated by Dave Hill ). Your Old school thinking was designed around cast iron blocks from the 60's, it has no place in the life expectancy of a modern engine design.
People who modify their car ( engine ) come running all the time when their car breaks, Ive had over 20,000 Private messages asking for help over the 12 years here, and 12,000 open forum post. When I left GM and came here to give back to a community that gave me a wonderful career, I was getting 50 private messages a day, Ive seen it all. Most problems occur when people who come here think everyone here knows what they are talking about... on the surface , having more performance seems like a good idea. Its not a good idea to lower the engine ability to lubricate this engine, the LSX engine has a sweet spot, for longevity 190 to 210F coolant, which in turn allows the oil to heat up to the sweet spot od 200/220F. Everything is a trade off, you want more performance you will loose on the other end. If you are willing to choose performance over longevity, that great. but don't think you are getting something for nothing. Ive been an automotive engineer for 40 years. The last 5 of those years were exclusive to the design and launch of the C5 platform before retiring. This is not 1960. What I usual tell newbies here is to be careful who they listen too. There are far more legends in their own mind here, than those who actually know something about this car.
People who modify their car ( engine ) come running all the time when their car breaks, Ive had over 20,000 Private messages asking for help over the 12 years here, and 12,000 open forum post. When I left GM and came here to give back to a community that gave me a wonderful career, I was getting 50 private messages a day, Ive seen it all. Most problems occur when people who come here think everyone here knows what they are talking about... on the surface , having more performance seems like a good idea. Its not a good idea to lower the engine ability to lubricate this engine, the LSX engine has a sweet spot, for longevity 190 to 210F coolant, which in turn allows the oil to heat up to the sweet spot od 200/220F. Everything is a trade off, you want more performance you will loose on the other end. If you are willing to choose performance over longevity, that great. but don't think you are getting something for nothing. Ive been an automotive engineer for 40 years. The last 5 of those years were exclusive to the design and launch of the C5 platform before retiring. This is not 1960. What I usual tell newbies here is to be careful who they listen too. There are far more legends in their own mind here, than those who actually know something about this car.
03-20-2013, 08:07 AM
#46
Le Mans Master
Many people who come here are concerned about higher temps of this motor.. only because this is not a cast iron motor, and its designed to run hotter to get the most out of the engine and to think with this design we increased the longevity of the motor from 100,000 miles to 200,000 miles. although I have many member check in with me about how great their 200K, 300K, and 400K C5 are running. You have got to let that old 80's mentality go. not to get confusing about cold vs. hot, it is true you can get more ponies from a colder engine but at the expense of longevity. From a longevity point of view hotter is better than colder. Tuners can easily get more HP out of this motor, they don't care that it might cost you 50,000 miles of longevity, its there job to show you a gain in HP. not to preserve the engines designed integrity.
To ease your concern just go look where the red line is on your temp gage. Many road racers run their car on the track at 260 F with no ill effects.
To ease your concern just go look where the red line is on your temp gage. Many road racers run their car on the track at 260 F with no ill effects.
03-20-2013, 09:25 AM
#47
Safety Car
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Oldtimer
03-20-2013, 10:56 AM
#48
Burning Brakes
To the OP, cleaning out the radiator will also help. Last August [at just over 50,000 miles] I noticed that mine was starting to run slightly warmer in hot weather than it had in the past. I cleaned the radiator and A/C intake and my underway temp immediately dropped 5*. My temps while sitting in traffic also dropped. They still creep up some but nowhere near as much as they did prior to the cleaning. I was really surprised by the amount of dirt and junk that came out of the radiator, as shown in the photo. I've since put cleaning the radiator on my list of things to do every year. Other items on that list include renewing the clutch fluid and cleaning the MAF sensor and throttle body intake.
03-20-2013, 01:03 PM
#49
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04
when you are running around town below 35 mph. the fans will kick in to control the coolant temp. this is done by heat transfer, where the fans draw surface air into and through both condenser and radiator in an effort to draw hot air from the system.
With a partially clogged condenser and radiator, you are reducing significantly their ability to transfer heat from the system. So keep them clean. The C5 cooling system works well when properly maintained. The body design doesn't not allow for flawless operation leaving the C5 as a bottom breather sucking in air from 8 inches off the surface.. in some cases that surface could be a blacktop surface on a 90+ F day where air temps right off the surface can reach 140 degrees, offering little heat transfer. this is another reason to keep the cooling system in top shape. Understanding this all helps you understand what needs to be done and why.
With a partially clogged condenser and radiator, you are reducing significantly their ability to transfer heat from the system. So keep them clean. The C5 cooling system works well when properly maintained. The body design doesn't not allow for flawless operation leaving the C5 as a bottom breather sucking in air from 8 inches off the surface.. in some cases that surface could be a blacktop surface on a 90+ F day where air temps right off the surface can reach 140 degrees, offering little heat transfer. this is another reason to keep the cooling system in top shape. Understanding this all helps you understand what needs to be done and why.
03-20-2013, 01:35 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
when you are running around town below 35 mph. the fans will kick in to control the coolant temp. this is done by heat transfer, where the fans draw surface air into and through both condenser and radiator in an effort to draw hot air from the system.
With a partially clogged condenser and radiator, you are reducing significantly their ability to transfer heat from the system. So keep them clean. The C5 cooling system works well when properly maintained. The body design doesn't not allow for flawless operation leaving the C5 as a bottom breather sucking in air from 8 inches off the surface.. in some cases that surface could be a blacktop surface on a 90+ F day where air temps right off the surface can reach 140 degrees, offering little heat transfer. this is another reason to keep the cooling system in top shape. Understanding this all helps you understand what needs to be done and why.
With a partially clogged condenser and radiator, you are reducing significantly their ability to transfer heat from the system. So keep them clean. The C5 cooling system works well when properly maintained. The body design doesn't not allow for flawless operation leaving the C5 as a bottom breather sucking in air from 8 inches off the surface.. in some cases that surface could be a blacktop surface on a 90+ F day where air temps right off the surface can reach 140 degrees, offering little heat transfer. this is another reason to keep the cooling system in top shape. Understanding this all helps you understand what needs to be done and why.
03-21-2013, 03:01 AM
#51
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um... excuse me but I was in no way trying to argue. I was merely pointing out that the OP, whom you should have chastised, was WAY over the line with regard to his/her statements regarding ET. I'd appreciate proper attributions, I can get in enough chit all by my lonesome.
Some things that are said on a thread can be misconstrued by others.
We are Gentlemen and we have Ladies here that read these Forums.
It is in our best interest for all involved to act as such Gentlemen and show the Ladies that we are all Civilized Vette Enthusiasts!
Nothing Hotter than a pretty Brunette in a Corvette Convertible! Eh?
03-24-2013, 09:24 AM
#52
Racer
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Ok! What say we all have a Beer! and let bygones be bygones?
Some things that are said on a thread can be misconstrued by others.
We are Gentlemen and we have Ladies here that read these Forums.
It is in our best interest for all involved to act as such Gentlemen and show the Ladies that we are all Civilized Vette Enthusiasts!
Nothing Hotter than a pretty Brunette in a Corvette Convertible! Eh?
Some things that are said on a thread can be misconstrued by others.
We are Gentlemen and we have Ladies here that read these Forums.
It is in our best interest for all involved to act as such Gentlemen and show the Ladies that we are all Civilized Vette Enthusiasts!
Nothing Hotter than a pretty Brunette in a Corvette Convertible! Eh?
That would be ideal!
Most of us do not come on here for the pi$$ing contests from self proclaimed experts proud to be involved designing a car with more inherent problems than a ford pinto. I surely wouldn't be bragging or trying to chastise others, but we need to remember not everyone has the best social skills in place for having a proper discussion, so I know now which threads by title will go in a negative direction in advance.
That being said, I love my vette and the improvments that were made along the way, a good car made better beginning with the oil catch can and oil sender relocation after standing up the intake manifold to drain out the oil into a bucket (the black burnt oil), all second guessing the 'engineers'.
Yeah love the car, fun to drive, but I don't hestitate to tell folks it is the best looking, fastest POS I ever owned, they are very "needy" cars. But I enjoy turning wrenches and trying to keep up with her. The site aftermarket vendors will always be able to make a very good living off of these cars, hands down, thanks to some genious' at the drawing tables.
03-24-2013, 07:03 PM
#53
That would be ideal!
Most of us do not come on here for the pi$$ing contests from self proclaimed experts proud to be involved designing a car with more inherent problems than a ford pinto. I surely wouldn't be bragging or trying to chastise others, but we need to remember not everyone has the best social skills in place for having a proper discussion, so I know now which threads by title will go in a negative direction in advance.
That being said, I love my vette and the improvments that were made along the way, a good car made better beginning with the oil catch can and oil sender relocation after standing up the intake manifold to drain out the oil into a bucket (the black burnt oil), all second guessing the 'engineers'.
Yeah love the car, fun to drive, but I don't hestitate to tell folks it is the best looking, fastest POS I ever owned, they are very "needy" cars. But I enjoy turning wrenches and trying to keep up with her. The site aftermarket vendors will always be able to make a very good living off of these cars, hands down, thanks to some genious' at the drawing tables.
Most of us do not come on here for the pi$$ing contests from self proclaimed experts proud to be involved designing a car with more inherent problems than a ford pinto. I surely wouldn't be bragging or trying to chastise others, but we need to remember not everyone has the best social skills in place for having a proper discussion, so I know now which threads by title will go in a negative direction in advance.
That being said, I love my vette and the improvments that were made along the way, a good car made better beginning with the oil catch can and oil sender relocation after standing up the intake manifold to drain out the oil into a bucket (the black burnt oil), all second guessing the 'engineers'.
Yeah love the car, fun to drive, but I don't hestitate to tell folks it is the best looking, fastest POS I ever owned, they are very "needy" cars. But I enjoy turning wrenches and trying to keep up with her. The site aftermarket vendors will always be able to make a very good living off of these cars, hands down, thanks to some genious' at the drawing tables.
03-24-2013, 08:54 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
This guy must have grown up listing to his grand father and how he maintaned his 60 buick...
FYI the sweet spot of an LSX motor is designed to run between 190 and 220F coolant and the sweet spot for oil is above 210. The LSX motor was the first to be benched marked at 200,000 miles.. we achieved this with the right spec of oil additive to protect this motor and to control shear .. HP is achieved through design which includes extremely tight clearances. Running cool oil below 190 will indeed starve off lubricity in the top end. This is not your grandfathers Buick. These cars see 300K and 400 K plus because we know what we are doing and developed a New age engine using a pushrod motor...this is a tribute to Dave Hill's vision on engine design and accomplished through dedicated engineers and delivered at the hands of John Juriga.
I often say to newbies to be careful who you listen too on this forum. Unfortunately there are way more legends in their own mind here than people who actually know their stuff.. the good news is there are a good amount of people here who are experts in their particular area of expertise.. You have an electrical issue, the first name that pops up is Bill Curlee, we have a bunch of great tuners, engineers and professional mechanics in this forum, we have guys like Ed Bon ( patches ) who is also an engineer who can help most people with most things mechanical And he does it with grace and kindness. Something that eludes me at times. Especially in the face of people who claim to know something but in reality do not and what makes it worse is they want to argue. The trick here is know who to listen too and who not to listen too... here is a hint.. there is a guy in the thread that no one should be listening too. See if you can figure out who that might be.
Bill aka ET
FYI the sweet spot of an LSX motor is designed to run between 190 and 220F coolant and the sweet spot for oil is above 210. The LSX motor was the first to be benched marked at 200,000 miles.. we achieved this with the right spec of oil additive to protect this motor and to control shear .. HP is achieved through design which includes extremely tight clearances. Running cool oil below 190 will indeed starve off lubricity in the top end. This is not your grandfathers Buick. These cars see 300K and 400 K plus because we know what we are doing and developed a New age engine using a pushrod motor...this is a tribute to Dave Hill's vision on engine design and accomplished through dedicated engineers and delivered at the hands of John Juriga.
I often say to newbies to be careful who you listen too on this forum. Unfortunately there are way more legends in their own mind here than people who actually know their stuff.. the good news is there are a good amount of people here who are experts in their particular area of expertise.. You have an electrical issue, the first name that pops up is Bill Curlee, we have a bunch of great tuners, engineers and professional mechanics in this forum, we have guys like Ed Bon ( patches ) who is also an engineer who can help most people with most things mechanical And he does it with grace and kindness. Something that eludes me at times. Especially in the face of people who claim to know something but in reality do not and what makes it worse is they want to argue. The trick here is know who to listen too and who not to listen too... here is a hint.. there is a guy in the thread that no one should be listening too. See if you can figure out who that might be.
Bill aka ET
03-25-2013, 12:32 AM
#55
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That would be ideal!
Most of us do not come on here for the pi$$ing contests from self proclaimed experts proud to be involved designing a car with more inherent problems than a ford pinto. I surely wouldn't be bragging or trying to chastise others, but we need to remember not everyone has the best social skills in place for having a proper discussion, so I know now which threads by title will go in a negative direction in advance.
That being said, I love my vette and the improvments that were made along the way, a good car made better beginning with the oil catch can and oil sender relocation after standing up the intake manifold to drain out the oil into a bucket (the black burnt oil), all second guessing the 'engineers'.
Yeah love the car, fun to drive, but I don't hestitate to tell folks it is the best looking, fastest POS I ever owned, they are very "needy" cars. But I enjoy turning wrenches and trying to keep up with her. The site aftermarket vendors will always be able to make a very good living off of these cars, hands down, thanks to some genious' at the drawing tables.
Most of us do not come on here for the pi$$ing contests from self proclaimed experts proud to be involved designing a car with more inherent problems than a ford pinto. I surely wouldn't be bragging or trying to chastise others, but we need to remember not everyone has the best social skills in place for having a proper discussion, so I know now which threads by title will go in a negative direction in advance.
That being said, I love my vette and the improvments that were made along the way, a good car made better beginning with the oil catch can and oil sender relocation after standing up the intake manifold to drain out the oil into a bucket (the black burnt oil), all second guessing the 'engineers'.
Yeah love the car, fun to drive, but I don't hestitate to tell folks it is the best looking, fastest POS I ever owned, they are very "needy" cars. But I enjoy turning wrenches and trying to keep up with her. The site aftermarket vendors will always be able to make a very good living off of these cars, hands down, thanks to some genious' at the drawing tables.
As in every Automobile ever made, yes, there are some Lemons.
Mine has an Oil Pressure sensor that does not work, Will I call my Vette a P.O.S.? NEVER! I will do everything in my power to make this Beauty better.
Does the Engine still run Strong? Do you not enjoy getting behind the wheel and driving one of the best Automobiles ever made? These are the things you must ask yourself.
You are more than welcome to buy a Pinto, Hot Rod it out as much as you want, put a 454 in that badboy if you want to, but trashing a Corvette is really not cool in my book. If you do not like your Corvette, By ALL MEANS! Sell it to someone that will appreciate it, Then go on the Pinto Forums and have a great time!
But Please, Do not trash or criticize those that offer advice to newer Corvette Owners such as myself.
As you said, this is not a pi$$ing contest, nor did I ever intend it to be one.
E.T. offers experienced advice having worked at G.M. and having been involved with the design of this Engine. It is a no brainer to LISTEN to someone that knows what they are talking about rather than take an offensive to the knowledge they offer.
E.T. Offers so many Vette Owners so much advice from his experience and gets so much dang static from alot of people, yet, He is still here for those dummys like me that truely need the best advice.
My hat is off to E.T. and others like him on this Forum. They offer the best help they can and try to make everyones Corvette experience the best possible.
