E-85
07-04-2010, 09:15 AM
#2
WHY? Silly idea.
Do you actually know anything about Ethenol or Octane ratings? Check it out and then see if you still think it a great idea.
Do you actually know anything about Ethenol or Octane ratings? Check it out and then see if you still think it a great idea.
Last edited by dougbfresh; 07-04-2010 at 09:18 AM.
07-04-2010, 12:17 PM
#5
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e85 only? probably pretty cheap as I have done this before.
You will lose mpg as ethanol only produces say 7500 btu I believe, so you will have to load more fuel into your map but the savings should cover the lose.
30-40% bigger injectors, upgraded fuel pump and a good tuner.
Tips: Make sure you dump alot more fuel in the startup map or you will stall out on startup until the engine is warmed up.
If you have any type of forced induction you will gain massive amount of power and even with a test pipe you will NOT have black smoke.
Fun facts: your motor oil will smell like Crisco when you change it.
I would suggest either having a spare pcm or some type of stand alone with a dual map option as there will be times you cannot get e85, but if you have them everywhere no worries, I only ran out of fuel once and the nearest station was say 30 miles away from my house. I keep about 60 gallons at my house.
For anyone to say it will eat through your fuel lines since your car was not created for ethanol... Tested with plenty of old cars for over a year on many forums, no issues.
I <3 corn :P
You will lose mpg as ethanol only produces say 7500 btu I believe, so you will have to load more fuel into your map but the savings should cover the lose.
30-40% bigger injectors, upgraded fuel pump and a good tuner.
Tips: Make sure you dump alot more fuel in the startup map or you will stall out on startup until the engine is warmed up.
If you have any type of forced induction you will gain massive amount of power and even with a test pipe you will NOT have black smoke.
Fun facts: your motor oil will smell like Crisco when you change it.
I would suggest either having a spare pcm or some type of stand alone with a dual map option as there will be times you cannot get e85, but if you have them everywhere no worries, I only ran out of fuel once and the nearest station was say 30 miles away from my house. I keep about 60 gallons at my house.
For anyone to say it will eat through your fuel lines since your car was not created for ethanol... Tested with plenty of old cars for over a year on many forums, no issues.
I <3 corn :P
07-04-2010, 01:31 PM
#6
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22-'23
Oldtimer
In a word, . . . NO ! rebuilding your fuel system to accept anything like E85 or a 'Flex-Fuel' would require an effort akin to re-inventing the wheel. All of the fuel lines, fittings, the tank and pump, sensors and injectors would have to go in favor of stainless steel. And then there's the Powertrain control module, and sofware which at this point doesn't exist and that's just a tip of the iceberg. Just stick with 91 octane. Happy 4th of July everyone ! 
07-04-2010, 05:06 PM
#7
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Wow... It really shows how little many on here don't know much about E85 considering the ignorance shown so far... Must be a lot on bad propaganda going around.
For the record, lots of ls1's have been converted over. You'll have no issues with fuel lines. 80's cars may have issues with fuel lines, but modern cars were designed to handle ethanol because the majority of states have mandatory mixes of ethanol between 10-20%.
You actually only need 25% more fuel when warm, but yes you need more than that when the motor is cold. If tuned properly, you will not lose much economy. 1-2 mpg in many cases which makes the E85 cheaper than gasoline.
E85 works best with higher compression, but you can advance the timing if you don't want to mess with your heads.
One thing to note is that you'll never need fuel injector cleaner with E85 since it's alcohol based which is what fuel injection cleaner is made out of. The pistons and valves will stay clean too.
E85 burns longer and cooler. Meaning while it burns in the combustion chamber, it pushes the piston down longer through the stroke.
Although you're injecting more fuel, you're gaining power so you're not on the gas as much to perform the same task which is why a properly tuned car will not lost that much economy.
If it were an option here in los angeles, I'd tune for E85. But there's only one station in my area that sells it. We have more hydrogen stations in my area. Lol 36 times as many in fact.
We also have the most flex fuel vehicles out here and there's STILL no stations out here. Lame.
For the record, lots of ls1's have been converted over. You'll have no issues with fuel lines. 80's cars may have issues with fuel lines, but modern cars were designed to handle ethanol because the majority of states have mandatory mixes of ethanol between 10-20%.
You actually only need 25% more fuel when warm, but yes you need more than that when the motor is cold. If tuned properly, you will not lose much economy. 1-2 mpg in many cases which makes the E85 cheaper than gasoline.
E85 works best with higher compression, but you can advance the timing if you don't want to mess with your heads.
One thing to note is that you'll never need fuel injector cleaner with E85 since it's alcohol based which is what fuel injection cleaner is made out of. The pistons and valves will stay clean too.
E85 burns longer and cooler. Meaning while it burns in the combustion chamber, it pushes the piston down longer through the stroke.
Although you're injecting more fuel, you're gaining power so you're not on the gas as much to perform the same task which is why a properly tuned car will not lost that much economy.
If it were an option here in los angeles, I'd tune for E85. But there's only one station in my area that sells it. We have more hydrogen stations in my area. Lol 36 times as many in fact.
We also have the most flex fuel vehicles out here and there's STILL no stations out here. Lame.
07-04-2010, 05:56 PM
#8
Race Director
One way to do this would be to transplant the engine, fuel system, and electronics from a truck.
Problem is that E85 is cheaper per gallon but is it cheaper in per mile costs. Your miles per gallon will drop (you can see a drop when running only 10% ethanol) so you have to factor that cost in. More than likely it will cost more per mile.
And don't forget, use of ethanol puts the gas station in competation with the grocery store!
tom...
Last edited by Tom73; 07-04-2010 at 06:00 PM.
07-04-2010, 08:10 PM
#9
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Wow... It really shows how little many on here don't know much about E85 considering the ignorance shown so far... Must be a lot on bad propaganda going around.
For the record, lots of ls1's have been converted over. You'll have no issues with fuel lines. 80's cars may have issues with fuel lines, but modern cars were designed to handle ethanol because the majority of states have mandatory mixes of ethanol between 10-20%.
You actually only need 25% more fuel when warm, but yes you need more than that when the motor is cold. If tuned properly, you will not lose much economy. 1-2 mpg in many cases which makes the E85 cheaper than gasoline.
E85 works best with higher compression, but you can advance the timing if you don't want to mess with your heads.
One thing to note is that you'll never need fuel injector cleaner with E85 since it's alcohol based which is what fuel injection cleaner is made out of. The pistons and valves will stay clean too.
E85 burns longer and cooler. Meaning while it burns in the combustion chamber, it pushes the piston down longer through the stroke.
Although you're injecting more fuel, you're gaining power so you're not on the gas as much to perform the same task which is why a properly tuned car will not lost that much economy.
If it were an option here in los angeles, I'd tune for E85. But there's only one station in my area that sells it. We have more hydrogen stations in my area. Lol 36 times as many in fact.
We also have the most flex fuel vehicles out here and there's STILL no stations out here. Lame.
For the record, lots of ls1's have been converted over. You'll have no issues with fuel lines. 80's cars may have issues with fuel lines, but modern cars were designed to handle ethanol because the majority of states have mandatory mixes of ethanol between 10-20%.
You actually only need 25% more fuel when warm, but yes you need more than that when the motor is cold. If tuned properly, you will not lose much economy. 1-2 mpg in many cases which makes the E85 cheaper than gasoline.
E85 works best with higher compression, but you can advance the timing if you don't want to mess with your heads.
One thing to note is that you'll never need fuel injector cleaner with E85 since it's alcohol based which is what fuel injection cleaner is made out of. The pistons and valves will stay clean too.
E85 burns longer and cooler. Meaning while it burns in the combustion chamber, it pushes the piston down longer through the stroke.
Although you're injecting more fuel, you're gaining power so you're not on the gas as much to perform the same task which is why a properly tuned car will not lost that much economy.
If it were an option here in los angeles, I'd tune for E85. But there's only one station in my area that sells it. We have more hydrogen stations in my area. Lol 36 times as many in fact.
We also have the most flex fuel vehicles out here and there's STILL no stations out here. Lame.
Do you know what it takes to switch over?
07-04-2010, 08:31 PM
#10
Race Director
the main two things would be the sensors to tell the computer what is coming through the gas lines and a computer that is capable of making the necessary engine adjustments based on the sensor input. That is assuming that the gas lines are of sufficent size to handle the added flow.
07-04-2010, 08:32 PM
#11
Melting Slicks
e85 only? probably pretty cheap as I have done this before.
You will lose mpg as ethanol only produces say 7500 btu I believe, so you will have to load more fuel into your map but the savings should cover the lose.
30-40% bigger injectors, upgraded fuel pump and a good tuner.
Tips: Make sure you dump alot more fuel in the startup map or you will stall out on startup until the engine is warmed up.
If you have any type of forced induction you will gain massive amount of power and even with a test pipe you will NOT have black smoke.
Fun facts: your motor oil will smell like Crisco when you change it.
I would suggest either having a spare pcm or some type of stand alone with a dual map option as there will be times you cannot get e85, but if you have them everywhere no worries, I only ran out of fuel once and the nearest station was say 30 miles away from my house. I keep about 60 gallons at my house.
For anyone to say it will eat through your fuel lines since your car was not created for ethanol... Tested with plenty of old cars for over a year on many forums, no issues.
I <3 corn :P
You will lose mpg as ethanol only produces say 7500 btu I believe, so you will have to load more fuel into your map but the savings should cover the lose.
30-40% bigger injectors, upgraded fuel pump and a good tuner.
Tips: Make sure you dump alot more fuel in the startup map or you will stall out on startup until the engine is warmed up.
If you have any type of forced induction you will gain massive amount of power and even with a test pipe you will NOT have black smoke.
Fun facts: your motor oil will smell like Crisco when you change it.
I would suggest either having a spare pcm or some type of stand alone with a dual map option as there will be times you cannot get e85, but if you have them everywhere no worries, I only ran out of fuel once and the nearest station was say 30 miles away from my house. I keep about 60 gallons at my house.
For anyone to say it will eat through your fuel lines since your car was not created for ethanol... Tested with plenty of old cars for over a year on many forums, no issues.
I <3 corn :P
In a word, . . . NO ! rebuilding your fuel system to accept anything like E85 or a 'Flex-Fuel' would require an effort akin to re-inventing the wheel. All of the fuel lines, fittings, the tank and pump, sensors and injectors would have to go in favor of stainless steel. And then there's the Powertrain control module, and sofware which at this point doesn't exist and that's just a tip of the iceberg. Just stick with 91 octane. Happy 4th of July everyone !
Wow... It really shows how little many on here don't know much about E85 considering the ignorance shown so far... Must be a lot on bad propaganda going around.
For the record, lots of ls1's have been converted over. You'll have no issues with fuel lines. 80's cars may have issues with fuel lines, but modern cars were designed to handle ethanol because the majority of states have mandatory mixes of ethanol between 10-20%.
You actually only need 25% more fuel when warm, but yes you need more than that when the motor is cold. If tuned properly, you will not lose much economy. 1-2 mpg in many cases which makes the E85 cheaper than gasoline.
E85 works best with higher compression, but you can advance the timing if you don't want to mess with your heads.
One thing to note is that you'll never need fuel injector cleaner with E85 since it's alcohol based which is what fuel injection cleaner is made out of. The pistons and valves will stay clean too.
E85 burns longer and cooler. Meaning while it burns in the combustion chamber, it pushes the piston down longer through the stroke.
Although you're injecting more fuel, you're gaining power so you're not on the gas as much to perform the same task which is why a properly tuned car will not lost that much economy.
If it were an option here in los angeles, I'd tune for E85. But there's only one station in my area that sells it. We have more hydrogen stations in my area. Lol 36 times as many in fact.
We also have the most flex fuel vehicles out here and there's STILL no stations out here. Lame.
For the record, lots of ls1's have been converted over. You'll have no issues with fuel lines. 80's cars may have issues with fuel lines, but modern cars were designed to handle ethanol because the majority of states have mandatory mixes of ethanol between 10-20%.
You actually only need 25% more fuel when warm, but yes you need more than that when the motor is cold. If tuned properly, you will not lose much economy. 1-2 mpg in many cases which makes the E85 cheaper than gasoline.
E85 works best with higher compression, but you can advance the timing if you don't want to mess with your heads.
One thing to note is that you'll never need fuel injector cleaner with E85 since it's alcohol based which is what fuel injection cleaner is made out of. The pistons and valves will stay clean too.
E85 burns longer and cooler. Meaning while it burns in the combustion chamber, it pushes the piston down longer through the stroke.
Although you're injecting more fuel, you're gaining power so you're not on the gas as much to perform the same task which is why a properly tuned car will not lost that much economy.
If it were an option here in los angeles, I'd tune for E85. But there's only one station in my area that sells it. We have more hydrogen stations in my area. Lol 36 times as many in fact.
We also have the most flex fuel vehicles out here and there's STILL no stations out here. Lame.
Another informed post, thanks!Why not, the trucks have flex fuel option with the LS engine. But they were designed from the git-go for it. Would need a truck computer or an all new programing on your car, sensors to detect what fuel is being used so the computer can adjust. Will need more E85 so would need to make sure that fuel lines are of suffficent size to deliver the extra fuel needed.
One way to do this would be to transplant the engine, fuel system, and electronics from a truck.
Problem is that E85 is cheaper per gallon but is it cheaper in per mile costs. Your miles per gallon will drop (you can see a drop when running only 10% ethanol) so you have to factor that cost in. More than likely it will cost more per mile.
And don't forget, use of ethanol puts the gas station in competation with the grocery store!
tom...
One way to do this would be to transplant the engine, fuel system, and electronics from a truck.
Problem is that E85 is cheaper per gallon but is it cheaper in per mile costs. Your miles per gallon will drop (you can see a drop when running only 10% ethanol) so you have to factor that cost in. More than likely it will cost more per mile.
And don't forget, use of ethanol puts the gas station in competation with the grocery store!
tom...
Where are you people getting information?
I am running stock fuel lines, fuel rails, a stock sending unit with a standard aftermarket fuel pump, standard aftermarket fuel injectors etc. There is NOTHING special about my fuel system other than the volume it can support. No special materials, no special products. Everything in GM's fuel systems have been Ethanol compliant for a long time and the same is true for nearly all the aftermarket fuel system parts available.
You do need to support around 30% more fuel volume though, that is correct. E85, by volume, does contain less energy. However, most people that switch to E85 don't actually experience a drop in mpg proportionate to that reduction in stored energy. Due to the highly increased timing E85 allows you to pick up a LOT of power in the low/mid-range and part-throttle. In general you'll need less throttle position just driving around compared to 91, and that will help offset the increased fuel consumption.
I haven't gotten a 91 tune in my Z yet, but I'll compare mpg once I do. That said, I'm seeing about the same mpg as I did before I went E85.
Please Note: I switched to E85 with my new motor, I never ran the old motor on E85 nor have I run the new motor on 91. But I went from a 348 cui motor with a 224/230, .591/.591 - 113 cam and 42# injectors to a 427 cui motor with a mid-240s/mid-250s, .670/.670 cam and 80# injectors and see about the same mpg in regular driving conditions.
E85 is around 104 octane, so it lets us run a LOT more timing in my 12:1 motor. The motor made 600RWHP NA with a stock C5Z06 85mm MAF and stock C5Z06 Ti exhaust. It also made 530RWTQ which is very high for a NA 427. I challenge you to find me ANYBODY that made 600+ RWHP NA through a stock Ti exhaust on 91. I have seen a very few 427cui+ NA guys do around 600 RWHP but they've all been in C6Z s w/ much better exhausts, MAFs, and a lot lower torque #s.
This was also just after break-in, I expect it to loosen up and free up a few more HP. We just got 610RWHP out of it with a 3" straight-through exhaust and no MAF. I actually expected better but we're running into the limitations of a LSX-style intake. Anyway, that's a discussion for another thread.
Yet another benefit I'm seeing with the E85 is that the car runs very cool. Ethanol creates a tremendous cooling effect. On the dyno we actually we having trouble keeping the car hot enough, even w/ back to back pulls, and on the freeway the coolant temps stay right on ~150 with a 160 degree tstat (in other words its not even opening the tstat). I'm really looking forward to this when I get to Thunderhill in Sept and it's 115 out.
There is no doubt E85 works, and works great. In theory all it takes to switch on an otherwise stock LS1 is a tune. However, you'd probably need to run the injectors to nearly 100% duty cycle, so you really "should" also up-size the injectors. If you have other mods then you might need bigger-yet injectors and a fuel pump to support the HP. Again, I'm over 600RWHP NA and on stock fuel lines and rails, without issue. I intend to have a few tunes for my car once time allows (91 for when I get caught away from an E85 station, 100 and 110 tunes for road courses w/o E85, etc) and just keeping my laptop handy. There's also a company modifying our PCMs to be able to hold two tunes and have switch to change them, but I'm interested in having more than two.
I really wish those who are not educated about it, or ill-informed would refrain from preaching.
-TJ
Last edited by tjZ06; 07-04-2010 at 08:44 PM.
07-04-2010, 08:49 PM
#12
I have an E85 vehicle and it's not worth the hype. Fuel has less energy in it, get 20% less mileage. It does run cleaner but for a everyday car, it's a wash and does not really buy you any performance.
07-04-2010, 08:53 PM
#13
To answer the question, I believe on a mildly modified car, the stock fuel pump will be sufficient. I have heard they are good to about 500 hp naturally asperated. Everything needs to be upped about 30% capacity. The injectors will need to be increased becasue the duty cycle may be close or exceeded. Other than that, a decent tune is a necessity. Other than that you get the benefit of better cooling effect of the fuel, 104 octane at less than 87 price.
My personal thought is that e85 is a great race fuel for performance applications especially if you dont mind possibly needing a bigger capacity fuel system. But I hate the thought of it in a mainstream vehicle. The fuel is subsodized and it made the cost of corn double and takes away from the food source. There is nearly no benefit from 87 octane in your grocery getter. The cost benefit is negated by the excessive use of the fuel. But it is perfectly suited for a car that can benefit from the exta octane at a fraction of the cost of a race fuel. My personal opinion.
07-04-2010, 08:54 PM
#14
Race Director
I can almost agree that an engine can be made to run on ethenol with basicly just a tune. But then it will only run on ethenol. to then run gas would require another tune. The flexfuel thing is that the engine with its sensors and compatable computer makes those changes on the fly.
I cannot understand why anyone would want to run on ethenol only
I cannot understand why anyone would want to run on ethenol only
07-04-2010, 09:02 PM
#15
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St. Jude Donor '12-'13-'14
Bowtiebubba.
Why do you want to run E85?
The goverment supports it so it must be bad.
Why do you want to run E85?
The goverment supports it so it must be bad.
Last edited by Mr.Bill; 07-04-2010 at 09:04 PM.
07-04-2010, 09:58 PM
#16
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I can almost agree that an engine can be made to run on ethenol with basicly just a tune. But then it will only run on ethenol. to then run gas would require another tune. The flexfuel thing is that the engine with its sensors and compatable computer makes those changes on the fly.
I cannot understand why anyone would want to run on ethenol only
I cannot understand why anyone would want to run on ethenol only
07-04-2010, 10:00 PM
#17
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We have serviced Gov fleet cars who use flex fuels and E85 for over 15 years.They were nothing but problems from day one,not to mention the only place you could actually buy the fuel was at the NASA facility.Corrossion problems affected the entire systems ,though in later years that did seem to improve although they still cant keep pumps in them.Just this past year the whole project was scrapped due to the fact it cost far more to run a flex fuel/E85 fleet than it did conventional cars and mileage overall was down 18%(Gov figures).The drivers hated them,the Gov found them unreliable and not cost effective,that is what I know about E85!
07-05-2010, 01:35 AM
#18
Melting Slicks
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tjZO6 wrote "There's also a company modifying our PCMs to be able to hold two tunes and have switch to change them, but I'm interested in having more than two."
I want to know about the dual tune switcher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please supply details..THANKS for your informed posts backed with real experience..
I want to know about the dual tune switcher!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please supply details..THANKS for your informed posts backed with real experience..
07-05-2010, 07:28 AM
#19
Melting Slicks
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A lot of good info here. One thing i didnt think about, we have e85 in my town but other places may not. I would definetly need to be able to switch tunes. I already have 42lb. injectors. Would they be big enough?
07-05-2010, 07:47 AM
#20
Melting Slicks
I'd be very interested in seeing back to back dyno #s on 91/E85 with a stock Flex Fuel GM vehicle. Then having a tune done to optimize both 91 and E85 and doing the same.
Wow. Nicely done. I was about to post something similar with my experience. I have used a local performance shop that has really pioneered the e85 conversion in my area. My friend built a boss 302 block based 347 T-trim vortech supercharged 640RWHP mustang that has been built to run on e85. Yeah he has new lines all the way and the pumps are super high volume pumps but only because the system was too small for his app. The same shop that did the tuning has a test mule 2000somthing 4.6 powered crown vic that has been more then 70K on the conversion with nothing more than a new set of injectors ad the tune on a flip chip for areas with no e85. No new lines, special pumps or whatever.
To answer the question, I believe on a mildly modified car, the stock fuel pump will be sufficient. I have heard they are good to about 500 hp naturally asperated. Everything needs to be upped about 30% capacity. The injectors will need to be increased becasue the duty cycle may be close or exceeded. Other than that, a decent tune is a necessity. Other than that you get the benefit of better cooling effect of the fuel, 104 octane at less than 87 price.
My personal thought is that e85 is a great race fuel for performance applications especially if you dont mind possibly needing a bigger capacity fuel system. But I hate the thought of it in a mainstream vehicle. The fuel is subsodized and it made the cost of corn double and takes away from the food source. There is nearly no benefit from 87 octane in your grocery getter. The cost benefit is negated by the excessive use of the fuel. But it is perfectly suited for a car that can benefit from the exta octane at a fraction of the cost of a race fuel. My personal opinion.
To answer the question, I believe on a mildly modified car, the stock fuel pump will be sufficient. I have heard they are good to about 500 hp naturally asperated. Everything needs to be upped about 30% capacity. The injectors will need to be increased becasue the duty cycle may be close or exceeded. Other than that, a decent tune is a necessity. Other than that you get the benefit of better cooling effect of the fuel, 104 octane at less than 87 price.
My personal thought is that e85 is a great race fuel for performance applications especially if you dont mind possibly needing a bigger capacity fuel system. But I hate the thought of it in a mainstream vehicle. The fuel is subsodized and it made the cost of corn double and takes away from the food source. There is nearly no benefit from 87 octane in your grocery getter. The cost benefit is negated by the excessive use of the fuel. But it is perfectly suited for a car that can benefit from the exta octane at a fraction of the cost of a race fuel. My personal opinion.
I also agree it's much more applicable to a performance application than your weekday DD or grocery getter. Just the cooling effect would be a huge benefit to most of us who track our cars.
I can almost agree that an engine can be made to run on ethenol with basicly just a tune. But then it will only run on ethenol. to then run gas would require another tune. The flexfuel thing is that the engine with its sensors and compatable computer makes those changes on the fly.
I cannot understand why anyone would want to run on ethenol only
I cannot understand why anyone would want to run on ethenol only
It would be really cool to actually get all the FlexFuel stuff working on a non-FlexFuel vehicle. That said, the FlexFuel sensors and parts are not at/in the engine. There's a sensor in the tank that can detect the Ethanol, which triggers the PCM to switch tunes. I suspect you'd just need to retrofit that sensor to your tank, but the hard part would be the PCM. Now, it'd be really interesting to see if the operating system from a FlexFuel PCM could be loaded on a non-FF PCM. OS swaps are done all the time, AFAIK my tuner has a totally different OS with much higher fidelity on my stock '02 PCM... but that's way out of my field of expertise.
We have serviced Gov fleet cars who use flex fuels and E85 for over 15 years.They were nothing but problems from day one,not to mention the only place you could actually buy the fuel was at the NASA facility.Corrossion problems affected the entire systems ,though in later years that did seem to improve although they still cant keep pumps in them.Just this past year the whole project was scrapped due to the fact it cost far more to run a flex fuel/E85 fleet than it did conventional cars and mileage overall was down 18%(Gov figures).The drivers hated them,the Gov found them unreliable and not cost effective,that is what I know about E85!
I have heard of the problems you had on earlier FlexFuel vehicles. But once GM put FlexFuel into the non-fleet circulation they improved the materials a lot, and because it was cheaper to produce one material than many all their cars benefited.
-TJ