after supercharger/clutch/trans/springs - pulled the valve covers and found...
08-16-2009, 01:24 PM
#41
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i did not over rev the motor, not even remotely. i have stated this before. i picked the car up and the ticking was significantly loud. after having the car for 2 days the noise got progressively louder.
Inever went over 3k rpms. i have a new trans,shifter, clutch, etc and it should still be in the break in period.
which makes me wonder why a shop would dyno a car with a brand new clutch in it. why would they wait to tell me about the ticking until i drove 3 hours to get there and started it up? why did they not call me after having it for a week and tell me? cuz they knew i was going to take the car home, i had no choice.
Inever went over 3k rpms. i have a new trans,shifter, clutch, etc and it should still be in the break in period.
which makes me wonder why a shop would dyno a car with a brand new clutch in it. why would they wait to tell me about the ticking until i drove 3 hours to get there and started it up? why did they not call me after having it for a week and tell me? cuz they knew i was going to take the car home, i had no choice.
When Doug installed your springs he said he checked your push rods. Now I wasnt leaning over his shoulder, as thats not my job, but I have no reason to believe thats not the case. The bent push rods are a sign of an over rev, short of a mechanical failure.
Like I said, call the shop to discuss it, as I'm not going to feed into this whole thing. I can tell you this tho, they wouldnt have let you take a car, with a substantial number of unbilled hours of work on it, and a outstanding balance if their intent was to screw you over. That just doesn't even begin to make sense. If they were out to screw you, they would have said bring cash and a flatbed.
I was not there, I don't think you were there.
The OP stated it was "ticking loudly" when he picked it up.
If that was the case I believe most shops would have advised against driving it until the problem was diagnosed and fixed.
But then again I was not there.
If the pushrods were bent then it would have progressively gotten worse to the point of catastrophic failure.
The shop has a great reputation and I'm sure the OP is stating the facts truthfully as well.
The OP asked what the problem was.
Well, it is bent pushrods.
At this juncture we can not offer any further constructive opinions.
Good luck to the OP on getting you Vette up and running.
btw. I have seen pulls where the Final and Best #s come at the expense of a broken motor.
The OP stated it was "ticking loudly" when he picked it up.
If that was the case I believe most shops would have advised against driving it until the problem was diagnosed and fixed.
But then again I was not there.
If the pushrods were bent then it would have progressively gotten worse to the point of catastrophic failure.
The shop has a great reputation and I'm sure the OP is stating the facts truthfully as well.
The OP asked what the problem was.
Well, it is bent pushrods.
At this juncture we can not offer any further constructive opinions.
Good luck to the OP on getting you Vette up and running.
btw. I have seen pulls where the Final and Best #s come at the expense of a broken motor.
I was there. I work there. I also heard the car run a number of times while it was here. I wasnt intently listening to it as I wasnt even aware it might have had a valve train issue, but I didnt hear it ticking. Then again, I didn't work on his car. But it was pointed out to him when he picked the car up. I knew he had a clutch issue, as I was looking to see how the clutch he brought in worked out.
Additionally, If I went to pick up my car, after 15k of work and it was ticking loudly, I wouldnt take it, needless to say drive 3 hours on a ticking motor. He and Doug/Chris discussed it. I didnt even know about it, and I heard it run that day. I wasnt involved nor did i hear the conversation, as I was working with another customer when he came in.
Oh and I've heard of plenty pulls where the final numbers come at the expense of the motor. But we are talking about bent push rods. What car puts down it's best and final pull with the valves closed?????????? (WHEN A PUSH ROD BENDS, THE VALVES DON'T OPEN) Yeah. It wouldnt make it's best and final numbers with the valves closed. It would have run like crap, not putdown 500 at the tire.
When a motor makes it's best and final numbers on a dyno pull, it's generally do to a lean condition, not closed valves. But like you said, you werent there.
Like I said Nick, I know how you feel, but I also know they (Doug and Chris) offered to work with you on it, and extended credit to let you take the car. My advise is to take them up on it, but I'm not you. If I can help let me know. Best of luck with it either way.
08-16-2009, 01:24 PM
#42
Pro
Thread Starter
update: sunday the 16th
a local forum friend (moose) came by and installed new pushrods for me and found 6 bent ones and 1 snapped in half.
after installing the new ones everything ran fine so far at idle. i havent driven the car yet, but was advised to get the oil changed tomorrow asap and order hardened pushrods and get those in, then change oil again.
no ticking after the pushrods went in
i am extremely greatful to moose and Z06joe for their help and compassion with my situation. its guys like that that just change everything for the better.
i will continue to keep you all updated after those things.
thanks again for everyones support who was supportive to get me back on the road.
~ nick
a local forum friend (moose) came by and installed new pushrods for me and found 6 bent ones and 1 snapped in half.
after installing the new ones everything ran fine so far at idle. i havent driven the car yet, but was advised to get the oil changed tomorrow asap and order hardened pushrods and get those in, then change oil again.
no ticking after the pushrods went in
i am extremely greatful to moose and Z06joe for their help and compassion with my situation. its guys like that that just change everything for the better.
i will continue to keep you all updated after those things.
thanks again for everyones support who was supportive to get me back on the road.
~ nick
08-16-2009, 01:58 PM
#44
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St. Jude Donor '09
I took a few pictures of the push rods, but at work right now. The # 8 cylinder had the broken push rod. It broke about 2 inches down from rocker.
I'm hoping there is not any other damage. Some of the bent push rods did egg out a few holes on the heads.
So hoping we put set of hardened push rods in it, and we will be good to go.
Still need to figure out the trans problem, but that could be the clutch or a adjustable master cylinder. one problem at a time..
also nick.. anytime. thats what car guys and groups are suppose to do..
I'm hoping there is not any other damage. Some of the bent push rods did egg out a few holes on the heads.
So hoping we put set of hardened push rods in it, and we will be good to go.
Still need to figure out the trans problem, but that could be the clutch or a adjustable master cylinder. one problem at a time..
also nick.. anytime. thats what car guys and groups are suppose to do..
08-16-2009, 02:09 PM
#45
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St. Jude Donor '09
Mike. ECS has a lot more experience with this stuff.. could the new valve springs bend the push rods with normal driving? just wondering because of the more pressure that could happen. The push rods were # 8, # 6 # 5.. those are what stick in my head. it was 4 one side, 3 on the other.
I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, wasnt there. When I finished up and started the car, only thing I could hear was a little piston slap.
Also, it was a very clean install!
08-16-2009, 02:50 PM
#46
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Not that I've heard of... But I'm not the expert that Doug is.
I assume that when his stock springs showed to be weakend (I assume by valve float on the dyno) Doug swapped the springs to most likely Manley single. It's not a monster of a spring. Shouldnt need hardened push rods...nor should it present pressures that would be able to bend a stock p-rod in a normal situation. Just since I've been at ECS, there have been more than one car that needed new springs, and they been replaced in the same fashion and we've never seen a problem like this. Even on cars that see alot of track time. Heck we have cars that run deep 9's with stock push rods and much, much beefier springs.
Thanks for helping him out though. I'm glad to see it getting fixed.
I assume that when his stock springs showed to be weakend (I assume by valve float on the dyno) Doug swapped the springs to most likely Manley single. It's not a monster of a spring. Shouldnt need hardened push rods...nor should it present pressures that would be able to bend a stock p-rod in a normal situation. Just since I've been at ECS, there have been more than one car that needed new springs, and they been replaced in the same fashion and we've never seen a problem like this. Even on cars that see alot of track time. Heck we have cars that run deep 9's with stock push rods and much, much beefier springs.
Thanks for helping him out though. I'm glad to see it getting fixed.
08-16-2009, 03:08 PM
#47
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Moosee - for helping out.
But still confused here, If this was done prior to Nick picking up the car, would it even run at all or stumble/misfire horribly? I cannot see this much damage done and not noticing it driving it home.
for helping out.But still confused here, If this was done prior to Nick picking up the car, would it even run at all or stumble/misfire horribly? I cannot see this much damage done and not noticing it driving it home.
08-16-2009, 03:27 PM
#48
Race Director
Great job Moose.
Here is the lay out for the reverse solenoid valve. If all of the forward gears are working correctly and your not getting any lurching with the clutch plugged in check the reverse lock out.
Check fuse 19 in the engine compartment.
Here is the lay out for the reverse solenoid valve. If all of the forward gears are working correctly and your not getting any lurching with the clutch plugged in check the reverse lock out.
Check fuse 19 in the engine compartment.
I took a few pictures of the push rods, but at work right now. The # 8 cylinder had the broken push rod. It broke about 2 inches down from rocker.
I'm hoping there is not any other damage. Some of the bent push rods did egg out a few holes on the heads.
So hoping we put set of hardened push rods in it, and we will be good to go.
Still need to figure out the trans problem, but that could be the clutch or a adjustable master cylinder. one problem at a time..
also nick.. anytime. thats what car guys and groups are suppose to do..
I'm hoping there is not any other damage. Some of the bent push rods did egg out a few holes on the heads.
So hoping we put set of hardened push rods in it, and we will be good to go.
Still need to figure out the trans problem, but that could be the clutch or a adjustable master cylinder. one problem at a time..
also nick.. anytime. thats what car guys and groups are suppose to do..
08-16-2009, 05:18 PM
#50
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
08-16-2009, 06:54 PM
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10
Good thing I am a pack rat and keep all kinds of stuff huh Nick 
.... Glad Moose was able to get you straight He helped out TREMENDOUSLY during my h/c install.... If it weren't for him and Shagster... I would have a giant blue paper weight!!!!
.... Glad Moose was able to get you straight He helped out TREMENDOUSLY during my h/c install.... If it weren't for him and Shagster... I would have a giant blue paper weight!!!!
08-16-2009, 09:22 PM
#53
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Nick,
I read threw about 4-5 responses and said forget it, here's the deal. Every part that we installed is fine, I happened to personally change your springs because the failure happened on the dyno. So I left it strapped down and changed them, which is rare since my tech's would normally do it. I know I pulled your push rods and they were fine, no one can tell me otherwise.
We called before the clutch went in and said we didn't care for it. What is the chance of that? We hardly ever do that, and yet the one we do has problems...
I dont care what opinions have been given in either direction, because we know whats going on with the car. On a single spring/stock upgrade scenario like yours, we have never changed the push rods on any car, and to date have NEVER had one fail without another failure causing it. We have done 100's and 100's of installs like yours, so I would say that's pretty good odds. The fastest stock bottom LS1 and LS6 agree too!
I'm so sure of my diagnosis on the clutch, which is the last remaining problem now that the push rods are changed, that I will make an agreement with you.
I will replace your clutch, while you wait, and guarantee you it will fix the problem. I'm so sure that I will put my money where my mouth is, When it cures yours shifting problem, please pay for the clutch, and the balance of your bill. If it does not, you do not owe me for the clutch, or your balance!!! Take your existing clutch and sell it if you like and profit from the arrangement.
I dont know how else to restore your faith in us, we are not perfect, and this is not a problem free business, but in this situation we are not at fault, and if we were we would have called and said whatever happened no matter how bad.
I doubt you will see a guarantee like that from many other performance shops. What happened to your push rods when the car dyno'd over 500rwhp a few times fine, and drove away running great until two days later, I dont know and cant answer that. Sometimes your that one car, and sometimes S&%t happens. I was on the phone both Saturday and Sunday with the person looking at your car, again not something you will find from most performance shops.
Have a nice weekend.
I read threw about 4-5 responses and said forget it, here's the deal. Every part that we installed is fine, I happened to personally change your springs because the failure happened on the dyno. So I left it strapped down and changed them, which is rare since my tech's would normally do it. I know I pulled your push rods and they were fine, no one can tell me otherwise.
We called before the clutch went in and said we didn't care for it. What is the chance of that? We hardly ever do that, and yet the one we do has problems...
I dont care what opinions have been given in either direction, because we know whats going on with the car. On a single spring/stock upgrade scenario like yours, we have never changed the push rods on any car, and to date have NEVER had one fail without another failure causing it. We have done 100's and 100's of installs like yours, so I would say that's pretty good odds. The fastest stock bottom LS1 and LS6 agree too!
I'm so sure of my diagnosis on the clutch, which is the last remaining problem now that the push rods are changed, that I will make an agreement with you.
I will replace your clutch, while you wait, and guarantee you it will fix the problem. I'm so sure that I will put my money where my mouth is, When it cures yours shifting problem, please pay for the clutch, and the balance of your bill. If it does not, you do not owe me for the clutch, or your balance!!! Take your existing clutch and sell it if you like and profit from the arrangement.
I dont know how else to restore your faith in us, we are not perfect, and this is not a problem free business, but in this situation we are not at fault, and if we were we would have called and said whatever happened no matter how bad.
I doubt you will see a guarantee like that from many other performance shops. What happened to your push rods when the car dyno'd over 500rwhp a few times fine, and drove away running great until two days later, I dont know and cant answer that. Sometimes your that one car, and sometimes S&%t happens. I was on the phone both Saturday and Sunday with the person looking at your car, again not something you will find from most performance shops.
Have a nice weekend.
08-16-2009, 09:37 PM
#54
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Nick,
I read threw about 4-5 responses and said forget it, here's the deal. Every part that we installed is fine, I happened to personally change your springs because the failure happened on the dyno. So I left it strapped down and changed them, which is rare since my tech's would normally do it. I know I pulled your push rods and they were fine, no one can tell me otherwise.
We called before the clutch went in and said we didn't care for it. What is the chance of that? We hardly ever do that, and yet the one we do has problems...
I dont care what opinions have been given in either direction, because we know whats going on with the car. On a single spring/stock upgrade scenario like yours, we have never changed the push rods on any car, and to date have NEVER had one fail without another failure causing it. We have done 100's and 100's of installs like yours, so I would say that's pretty good odds. The fastest stock bottom LS1 and LS6 agree too!
I'm so sure of my diagnosis on the clutch, which is the last remaining problem now that the push rods are changed, that I will make an agreement with you.
I will replace your clutch, while you wait, and guarantee you it will fix the problem. I'm so sure that I will put my money where my mouth is, When it cures yours shifting problem, please pay for the clutch, and the balance of your bill. If it does not, you do not owe me for the clutch, or your balance!!! Take your existing clutch and sell it if you like and profit from the arrangement.
I dont know how else to restore your faith in us, we are not perfect, and this is not a problem free business, but in this situation we are not at fault, and if we were we would have called and said whatever happened no matter how bad.
I doubt you will see a guarantee like that from many other performance shops. What happened to your push rods when the car dyno'd over 500rwhp a few times fine, and drove away running great until two days later, I dont know and cant answer that. Sometimes your that one car, and sometimes S&%t happens. I was on the phone both Saturday and Sunday with the person looking at your car, again not something you will find from most performance shops.
Have a nice weekend.
I read threw about 4-5 responses and said forget it, here's the deal. Every part that we installed is fine, I happened to personally change your springs because the failure happened on the dyno. So I left it strapped down and changed them, which is rare since my tech's would normally do it. I know I pulled your push rods and they were fine, no one can tell me otherwise.
We called before the clutch went in and said we didn't care for it. What is the chance of that? We hardly ever do that, and yet the one we do has problems...
I dont care what opinions have been given in either direction, because we know whats going on with the car. On a single spring/stock upgrade scenario like yours, we have never changed the push rods on any car, and to date have NEVER had one fail without another failure causing it. We have done 100's and 100's of installs like yours, so I would say that's pretty good odds. The fastest stock bottom LS1 and LS6 agree too!
I'm so sure of my diagnosis on the clutch, which is the last remaining problem now that the push rods are changed, that I will make an agreement with you.
I will replace your clutch, while you wait, and guarantee you it will fix the problem. I'm so sure that I will put my money where my mouth is, When it cures yours shifting problem, please pay for the clutch, and the balance of your bill. If it does not, you do not owe me for the clutch, or your balance!!! Take your existing clutch and sell it if you like and profit from the arrangement.
I dont know how else to restore your faith in us, we are not perfect, and this is not a problem free business, but in this situation we are not at fault, and if we were we would have called and said whatever happened no matter how bad.
I doubt you will see a guarantee like that from many other performance shops. What happened to your push rods when the car dyno'd over 500rwhp a few times fine, and drove away running great until two days later, I dont know and cant answer that. Sometimes your that one car, and sometimes S&%t happens. I was on the phone both Saturday and Sunday with the person looking at your car, again not something you will find from most performance shops.
Have a nice weekend.
08-16-2009, 10:14 PM
#55
Team Owner
I would definitely take them up on the offer. Good luck for resolving this issue.
08-16-2009, 10:18 PM
#56
Team Owner
Sounds like ECS is doing the right thing here!
08-17-2009, 04:41 AM
#57
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St. Jude Donor '09
Nick,
I read threw about 4-5 responses and said forget it, here's the deal. Every part that we installed is fine, I happened to personally change your springs because the failure happened on the dyno. So I left it strapped down and changed them, which is rare since my tech's would normally do it. I know I pulled your push rods and they were fine, no one can tell me otherwise.
We called before the clutch went in and said we didn't care for it. What is the chance of that? We hardly ever do that, and yet the one we do has problems...
I dont care what opinions have been given in either direction, because we know whats going on with the car. On a single spring/stock upgrade scenario like yours, we have never changed the push rods on any car, and to date have NEVER had one fail without another failure causing it. We have done 100's and 100's of installs like yours, so I would say that's pretty good odds. The fastest stock bottom LS1 and LS6 agree too!
I'm so sure of my diagnosis on the clutch, which is the last remaining problem now that the push rods are changed, that I will make an agreement with you.
I will replace your clutch, while you wait, and guarantee you it will fix the problem. I'm so sure that I will put my money where my mouth is, When it cures yours shifting problem, please pay for the clutch, and the balance of your bill. If it does not, you do not owe me for the clutch, or your balance!!! Take your existing clutch and sell it if you like and profit from the arrangement.
I dont know how else to restore your faith in us, we are not perfect, and this is not a problem free business, but in this situation we are not at fault, and if we were we would have called and said whatever happened no matter how bad.
I doubt you will see a guarantee like that from many other performance shops. What happened to your push rods when the car dyno'd over 500rwhp a few times fine, and drove away running great until two days later, I dont know and cant answer that. Sometimes your that one car, and sometimes S&%t happens. I was on the phone both Saturday and Sunday with the person looking at your car, again not something you will find from most performance shops.
Have a nice weekend.
I read threw about 4-5 responses and said forget it, here's the deal. Every part that we installed is fine, I happened to personally change your springs because the failure happened on the dyno. So I left it strapped down and changed them, which is rare since my tech's would normally do it. I know I pulled your push rods and they were fine, no one can tell me otherwise.
We called before the clutch went in and said we didn't care for it. What is the chance of that? We hardly ever do that, and yet the one we do has problems...
I dont care what opinions have been given in either direction, because we know whats going on with the car. On a single spring/stock upgrade scenario like yours, we have never changed the push rods on any car, and to date have NEVER had one fail without another failure causing it. We have done 100's and 100's of installs like yours, so I would say that's pretty good odds. The fastest stock bottom LS1 and LS6 agree too!
I'm so sure of my diagnosis on the clutch, which is the last remaining problem now that the push rods are changed, that I will make an agreement with you.
I will replace your clutch, while you wait, and guarantee you it will fix the problem. I'm so sure that I will put my money where my mouth is, When it cures yours shifting problem, please pay for the clutch, and the balance of your bill. If it does not, you do not owe me for the clutch, or your balance!!! Take your existing clutch and sell it if you like and profit from the arrangement.
I dont know how else to restore your faith in us, we are not perfect, and this is not a problem free business, but in this situation we are not at fault, and if we were we would have called and said whatever happened no matter how bad.
I doubt you will see a guarantee like that from many other performance shops. What happened to your push rods when the car dyno'd over 500rwhp a few times fine, and drove away running great until two days later, I dont know and cant answer that. Sometimes your that one car, and sometimes S&%t happens. I was on the phone both Saturday and Sunday with the person looking at your car, again not something you will find from most performance shops.
Have a nice weekend.
Its nice to see a shop stand behind there work, unlike some of the shops here is in cali
08-17-2009, 06:29 AM
#60
Safety Car
Wow, way to go ECS!
Though don't expect that to be the end of it! His next post on the forum may very well be something like, "Took my car to a shop, had them put on some parts, and now my rear tires are bald. It's their fault, they screwed me..."
Though don't expect that to be the end of it! His next post on the forum may very well be something like, "Took my car to a shop, had them put on some parts, and now my rear tires are bald. It's their fault, they screwed me..."