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my black Z looks like crap, need help

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Old 04-02-2009, 12:41 AM
  #1  
winters97gt
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Default my black Z looks like crap, need help

Hey guys/gals.

Need a little help. I bought my black Z with 60k on it 6 months ago. I have never owned a black car. On most of my white, red, or pewter cars, wash them about 1 time a month. Other than that, they are garaged. So I just take a damp soft towel, and wipe them down.

Well, being dumb, I did it with the vette. Now, I have horrible swirl marks all over the car. All my hand tools are 300 miles away at the river house, and I have no experience buffing, polishing, removing marks from cars.

I tried a swirl mark remover by Mothers using only a towel. Didn't work at all. Basically, I think I have driven all the dust dirt into the paint by wiping it down all the time with a damp towel.

What should I do to remove this? Pay a professional? If so, What techniques should I require and what questions should I ask before they do it. Also, what should I expect to pay for a complete swirl removal job on the black vette?

Thanks

Mark
Old 04-02-2009, 01:05 AM
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Alaskanpilot
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Mark,

This is opening up a door to a BIG world... caring for black cars is quite a challenge, but the results pay off big.

There are 1000's of ideas and techniques on how to best deal with black paint, and swirls on black paint. It can really bog you down, trying to digest it all.

It sounds like you have limited tools and experience, so here's what I would do. Your first move would be to make a choice:

Choice A, involves committing some time and money to learning how to properly care for the black Vette. This involves buying an orbital buffer and some associated supplies; or possibly a kit involving everything you might need. Orbital buffers are very safe; what you want to avoid (for now) are rotary buffers. The best orbitals in my opinion, right now, are the PC 7424 ($130) and the Flex 3401 ($280). The Flex is undoubtedly superior but, don't underestimate the PC either. I use it myself on my black Vette, and see no reason to upgrade to the flex unit. For an outlay of ~$500, you can get a solid set of pads, products, towels, and a PC buffer to get started. You can probably assemble this for less, even. You can also buy the Flex instead, but the cost will go up of course. From there, you will learn how to put all this to good use and get excellent results with practically no risk of damage to your car. Many people prefer to practice on a beater car first, but I didn't. I jumped right in and learned by working on the Vette. No bad things happened.

Choice B involves paying a detailer. The benefits here are obvious: You don't have to invest the time to do it yourself, or worry about messing your paint up (but you should worry about a detailer doing that... be sure you find a GOOD detailer); however the drawbacks are many: When the detailer is done, you're out that money and will be back in the same situation again next year. Should I pay more money for another detail? Or learn myself? I've seen some cases of high-end detailers correcting heavily swirled black Vettes, but the prices have been anywhere from $500 to $1200! You can find guys willing to do the work for far less, but you almost certainly won't get the depth of effort. It takes many hours to correct a bad finish; nobody does that for a blanket fee.

Choice A, tends to be more rewarding and in the end, easier on your wallet. That would be my suggestion. You're going to spend hundreds either way. Why not follow that path that sustains itself? Once you buy the big stuff, your only further purchases are minor; replacing microfiber towels or a product that has run out. Spend some time reading through the Car Care Forum (which is where this will likely get moved to) and you'll get lots of advice, and there are a number of detailers who hang out there who are among the best in the world. You can learn everything you need to learn, in that forum. Very helpful place.

But no matter what you do, there are some basics you should know.

C5 paint (correction: the CLEARCOAT) is VERY hard; most swirl removers are less effective than they might be on other cars. That's why getting results by hand, is a fools errand. You really need a buffer if you hope to do any correction at all.

Always use microfiber towels to buff off waxes or to dry with; cotton towels tend to be rougher on the paint. If able, consider a leaf blower (electric) or other source of forced air to dry the paint after washing. That way you never have to run a towel across the surface.

Use two buckets when washing the car: One with the soap water and one with rinse water. Rinse a dirty mitt before putting it back into the soap water.

Avoid washing or waxing in the sun, or on hot surfaces. Leads to water spots and difficulty removing wax.

Never use a damp towel to wipe dirt off the car. A California Duster generally works well, but must be used carefully on black paint... it can leave fine scratches of its own. Alternative is to use a Quick Detail spray of some sort, with microfiber towels, to wipe the paint down. Only do this when the layer of dirt is very light. Heavier dirt, or splashes or stains, should probably be treated with a car wash.

Hopefully this helps you out a bit!

Last edited by Alaskanpilot; 04-02-2009 at 01:09 AM.
Old 04-02-2009, 01:12 AM
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The best thing for you to do at this point is take it to a professional detailer. They will be able to tell you what it will take to get it back to looking great.
Very possibly may be a simple thing (and not expensive). Worst case to have to buff out the whole car ($100 around here), but may be easier if its not too bad.

Having said that, you probably should think about whats gonna work for you. If you daily drive it and dont have the time to clean it in a way to avoid scratching a very clean black finish, You may want to just get it as good as you can by hand and then just wax it.

Black isnt a color . . . it's a religion

You can also look in the detailing section here for good info.
Or read a post of mine below for mediocher info :-)
Originally Posted by Jistari
Just what I do, and yes, mine is black also.

Exterior:
+Diswashing detergent, then claybar, then Zaino a couple of times a year.

Regular washing/waxing:

Washing:

+Spray it down with water

+Hit the wheels and tailpipes with Windex (just spray it on over the water and leave it).

+Use a big (at least 5 gal pail, lets the dirt/grit sink to the bottom) I use Mothers Car Soap, but any decent one will do (but use car soap so you don't remove the wax).

+Use one sheepskin mitt to do the body and another (probably the older one when you replace it) for the wheels and tailpipes.

+Rinse, rinse, rinse the mitt often . . .did I mention you should rinse the mitt often?

+After you finish washing it (still wet) Windex the outside of the windows and use a squeegee (sponge side) to clean the outside of the windows.

+Spray the whole car off with water. You might want to try using the spray tip to rinse the car and as a last step, taking the tip off and letting the open hose run off the car from the top down. That will leave a lot less water on the car when you are done and make drying easier.

Drying:

I used to use a chamois, and it does work perfectly, but lately I have started using the leaf blower to blow off most of the water, I have to tell you, it works great. Most of the scratches we get on our cars are self inflicted during washing/waxing. The leaf blower will never add to those, and it gets all the water out of the doorhandles, mirrors, fog cutouts, side markers, rear tail light s and the rear plate recess :-)

+Then touch up the outside of the windows with the squeegee (rubber side).

+Then go over the car with the chamois to grab the remaining few drops of water.

Waxing:

Yup although I use and like Zaino, I also wax it, and heres why:

We have black cars :-) this is a totally different beast than any other color. Most dark colors show small scratches and swirl marks more than lighter colors, and then there is black :-) Not even close, its like a mirror, you will see every single blemish.....think of keeping a black car looking good not so much as a job....but a religion :-)

Zaino and other polymers, do an outstanding job of putting down a hard, long lasting shine, but they do not fill in small blemishes as well as a good carnuba wax will. I find that the finish they put down is excellent, but thin, so at least in my case, I can still see some of the small blemishes. You could use a buffer and get all the marks out, but I like doing it by hand, so a little help in covering the ones I don't get out with the myriad of other things we do (paint cleaners, mild abrasive waxes) I find that regular use of a good wax fills them in better.

I use P21S, it comes in a small white plastic container with a blue cap. All the hoopla and lab tests aside, studies show that carnuba is all you need. Its a hard, lasting surface. The P21S has two (count em...two) ingredients, Carnuba and beeswax. No abrasives, no colors, no scents, just wax. I have found it to be the best for my application. (there are a ton of other products, many of them great products with great results, this is just what I do and I'm not detracting from what ever anyone else does).

Start from the top and move down. As long as you make sure there is absolutely nothing on the applicator but wax (that means it was never used on a car that wasn't immediately washed before the waxing, and you never dropped the applicator on the ground) it doesn't much matter how you apply the wax. Although they say that you should end up with long front to back strokes on the horizontal surfaces (like the hood and rear deck) and vertical (up and down strokes) on the vertical surfaces (like the sides and doors) so thats the way I do it now. Its supposed to reduce the likelihood that you will see the inevitable small marks you may make later if they are made along the lines as stated.

+Don't use too much wax, it is a waste and also builds up when you take it off and can add scratches. All you need is a very thin coating. If you pile it on, no more will adhere than what would have adhered if you applied it in a thin coat. If you want it to cover more or look "deeper" there is only one way to do that ==> wax it more than once :-)

Always take the wax off with a decent (read that expensive) terry or most any microfiber towel. Five dollar cotton towels may mark the surface where the better ones probably wont. I haven't found any microfiber that hurts anything, even the cheap ones seem to do fine. Whichever you choose, make sure you:

+Remove any edging that is not made to not scratch the car (the edging on bath towels and some cheaper microfiber ones will scratch the surface you just waxed) if they are decent car towels it shouldn't be a problem.

+Turn the towel frequently and change it when its full of wax. On a C5 it usually takes two (small 18 x 18 microfiber) towels to remove the wax I put on. Your mileage may vary depending on how much wax you apply and what the surface was like before you started.

My rims and tailpipes are chrome, so all I have to do is Windex them although I do Zaino them when I do the rest of the car. A short word here. Don't polish things that aren't tarnished :-) A polish is not a protectorant. Metal polish is to remove tarnish, if the metal is already clean you need to wax it to protect it. And you pretty much never need to polish chrome.

So just to recap:

+Most of the marks we get on the car are self inflicted :-)

+Try not to ever wipe down the car unless its very clean already (and you are just using a quick detailer to dust it off) or you wash it first. Yes, I now, its a pain and means a lot of washing but there are no little scratch faries that visit us in the night, we put a lot of that down when we wipe a car with dirt on it.

+Never (and yes, this is the one and only time that never applies) use something you dropped on the floor (wash mitt, towel, wax applicator) on the car until you have absolutely cleaned it. If you ever drop a claybar ==> throw it away and get another one.

+Use a big pail (at least 5 gallons) to wash the car. A lot of the problems people run into are from reapplying the dirt to the car from the small concentrated wash pail.

+Use a separate wash mitt for the rims and tailpipes. Brake dust is a particularly abrasive substance by nature :-) Its hard, and cuts into clearcoat very well.

+A regular squeegee will clean the windows better than most other methods.

+Try the leaf blower for drying

+Make sure whatever towels you use don't scratch the surface (microfiber or edges/tags removed) and change them often.

Thats it, my had is empty (if you feel it was empty when I started this post, remember, I'm just saying what works for me , there are a ton of ways to do this.......enjoy your car )




Damn Alaska, you beat me to it :-) When I started the reply your post wasnt there, took me a while to find my old post.
Good info

Last edited by Jistari; 04-02-2009 at 01:21 AM.
Old 04-02-2009, 01:12 AM
  #4  
winters97gt
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Originally Posted by Alaskanpilot
Mark,

This is opening up a door to a BIG world... caring for black cars is quite a challenge, but the results pay off big.

There are 1000's of ideas and techniques on how to best deal with black paint, and swirls on black paint. It can really bog you down, trying to digest it all.

It sounds like you have limited tools and experience, so here's what I would do. Your first move would be to make a choice:

Choice A, involves committing some time and money to learning how to properly care for the black Vette. This involves buying an orbital buffer and some associated supplies; or possibly a kit involving everything you might need. Orbital buffers are very safe; what you want to avoid (for now) are rotary buffers. The best orbitals in my opinion, right now, are the PC 7424 ($130) and the Flex 3401 ($280). The Flex is undoubtedly superior but, don't underestimate the PC either. I use it myself on my black Vette, and see no reason to upgrade to the flex unit. For an outlay of ~$500, you can get a solid set of pads, products, towels, and a PC buffer to get started. You can probably assemble this for less, even. You can also buy the Flex instead, but the cost will go up of course. From there, you will learn how to put all this to good use and get excellent results with practically no risk of damage to your car. Many people prefer to practice on a beater car first, but I didn't. I jumped right in and learned by working on the Vette. No bad things happened.

Choice B involves paying a detailer. The benefits here are obvious: You don't have to invest the time to do it yourself, or worry about messing your paint up (but you should worry about a detailer doing that... be sure you find a GOOD detailer); however the drawbacks are many: When the detailer is done, you're out that money and will be back in the same situation again next year. Should I pay more money for another detail? Or learn myself? I've seen some cases of high-end detailers correcting heavily swirled black Vettes, but the prices have been anywhere from $500 to $1200! You can find guys willing to do the work for far less, but you almost certainly won't get the depth of effort. It takes many hours to correct a bad finish; nobody does that for a blanket fee.

Choice A, tends to be more rewarding and in the end, easier on your wallet. That would be my suggestion. You're going to spend hundreds either way. Why not follow that path that sustains itself? Once you buy the big stuff, your only further purchases are minor; replacing microfiber towels or a product that has run out. Spend some time reading through the Car Care Forum (which is where this will likely get moved to) and you'll get lots of advice, and there are a number of detailers who hang out there who are among the best in the world. You can learn everything you need to learn, in that forum. Very helpful place.

But no matter what you do, there are some basics you should know.

C5 paint (correction: the CLEARCOAT) is VERY hard; most swirl removers are less effective than they might be on other cars. That's why getting results by hand, is a fools errand. You really need a buffer if you hope to do any correction at all.

Always use microfiber towels to buff off waxes or to dry with; cotton towels tend to be rougher on the paint. If able, consider a leaf blower (electric) or other source of forced air to dry the paint after washing. That way you never have to run a towel across the surface.

Use two buckets when washing the car: One with the soap water and one with rinse water. Rinse a dirty mitt before putting it back into the soap water.

Avoid washing or waxing in the sun, or on hot surfaces. Leads to water spots and difficulty removing wax.

Never use a damp towel to wipe dirt off the car. A California Duster generally works well, but must be used carefully on black paint... it can leave fine scratches of its own. Alternative is to use a Quick Detail spray of some sort, with microfiber towels, to wipe the paint down. Only do this when the layer of dirt is very light. Heavier dirt, or splashes or stains, should probably be treated with a car wash.

Hopefully this helps you out a bit!
I don't know where to even start. It's bed time, and I will post again with a thorough reply to your post tomorrow. I truly appreciate your time, knowledge, and advice on my thread. Thanks again.

Mark
Old 04-02-2009, 01:18 AM
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Z28Johnny
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2nd post was well said. I have the porter cable and used it for the first time a few weeks ago. It was awesome and simple to use. It is true about the clear coat being hard, but just get the right polish. I got Mazerna polish, it is made for harder clear coats. I used a medium, a fine, and then a sealer. If your swirls are bad you should start with a coarse polish. Go to a site like Autogeeks.com and it will teach you a lot. It was a pain to start, but once I got into it it was kind of fun. Afterwords is when I felt really accomplished.

John
Old 04-02-2009, 01:24 AM
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mvvette97
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I have a black vette and a black trans am. I used to pay the body shop to buff them up but after that I decided to do it myself. Don't learn to buff on your vette or any nice car. If you have an older car then give it a try. You will be fine as long as you let the buffer do the work and not apply pressure to it. Be extra careful on corners because those are places that will be easier to burn through. Don't hold the buffer in one spot, move back and forth because if you don't the paint can get too hot. Always make sure you have enough compound on the pad because not having enough will cause the paint to heat up. Most important when working on black cars make sure to use a really fine cut compound if you just need to remove swirls . The first time I buffed the vette I used too coarse of compound and made the swirls worse. I now use this compound from 3M that's made for dark colors that is really fine. It does a wonderful job. I'll look tomarrow to see what's it's called for sure and the number.

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