Who's going to be driving their Corvette in the WINTER?
10-22-2006, 02:16 AM
#101
Race Director
Well, having worked with aluminum buses for 25 years that are exposed to Wisconsin winters, and being involved with aviation for the past 21 years, and having owned motorcycles for 30 years, I repsectfully disagree.
You should have seen the disintegration of the aluminum on the buses, I mean it was gone. You should have seen the airplane I saw that was parked about 50 feet downwind of a well traveled road, it had to scrapped, it was unrepairable. Motorcycles with coated aluminum engine covers, the salt worked under the finish and ruined the covers.
The effects on aluminum the you say you've actually seen was from a very short period of time, and here's the key, let the salt lay on there and dry out.....
My opinion isn't based on someone else's books, or someone's limited experience with what they've seen, it's from my 30 years of experience, and common sense.
So I'll say it again, if ya drive yer C5 in salt, yer clueless.
You should have seen the disintegration of the aluminum on the buses, I mean it was gone. You should have seen the airplane I saw that was parked about 50 feet downwind of a well traveled road, it had to scrapped, it was unrepairable. Motorcycles with coated aluminum engine covers, the salt worked under the finish and ruined the covers.
The effects on aluminum the you say you've actually seen was from a very short period of time, and here's the key, let the salt lay on there and dry out.....
My opinion isn't based on someone else's books, or someone's limited experience with what they've seen, it's from my 30 years of experience, and common sense.
So I'll say it again, if ya drive yer C5 in salt, yer clueless.
Yeah, I guess aluminum is available in only one alloy, so what you saw must apply to any aluminum piece..
You must not have remembered all the corroded steel frames from cars made pre-80s - far worse than what can happen to common aluminum alloys or even modern-day galvanized steel. Believe me when I say that there are differences in corrosion severity to aluminum alloys and what you've seen could well have been alloys that are more susceptable to corrosion. However, 5000 and 6000-series aluminum is very resistent to strength-related degradation from corrosion. I've seen even 7000-series aluminum (considered one of the more susceptible alloys) housings that were immersed in salt water for years, withstand 10,000 psi external pressure.
As for dry salt - this is why periodic washing is recommended. I've had many steel component-equipped (far worse than aluminum) vehicles throughout many, many winters while living back east and not one had a severely corroded frame. I washed my cars, topside and bottomside and I would expect that C5 owners would do the same.
10-22-2006, 06:54 AM
#102
Race Director
Originally Posted by Arnie Guitar
So I'll say it again, if ya drive yer C5 in salt, yer clueless.
That's pretty harsh!
I don't consider myself clueless at all. I know that keeping my car out of the snow and the salt and the rain is going to keep it looking better, but at the same time, it's my car and I want to drive it! I paid for it, so in my opinion I don't think I should leave it sitting in the garage only to come out when the weather conditions are optimal.
The C5 is my daily driver, we've only got room for two cars in my townhouse, mine and my wife's. And I've done the winter beater thing in the past with other cars and it ends up costing more in repair bills than it's worth. Plus you end up stuck with a POS for 3-4 months. I don't like driving POS cars.
I know there will always be Corvette owners that refuse to drive on anything other than dry roads, and I respect that, so why do so many of you guys seem to thumb your nose down on those of us who don't share your view? Calling us clueless? That's pretty sad.
I am glad there are Corvette owners who won't drive in rain or snow, because then I come along and buy your cars for a great price (you honestly don't get that much extra value at resale time, trust me) and I have a perfect car to begin with. Sure, it ends up being a little less than perfect after a few winters, but with the right care it shouldn't look too bad. I know mine isn't 100% perfect anymore, but from 5 feet away it still looks new. That's good enough for me. I'm having fun with it, that's all that matters.
10-22-2006, 08:40 AM
#103
Burning Brakes
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Well, happy to say my C5 is a clueless moron as after five New York winters, she's still nice and clean underneath, nice and sparkling on top, and lots of fun in the snow.
10-22-2006, 09:07 AM
#104
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Originally Posted by Dave68
Yeah, I guess aluminum is available in only one alloy, so what you saw must apply to any aluminum piece..
You must not have remembered all the corroded steel frames from cars made pre-80s - far worse than what can happen to common aluminum alloys or even modern-day galvanized steel. Believe me when I say that there are differences in corrosion severity to aluminum alloys and what you've seen could well have been alloys that are more susceptable to corrosion. However, 5000 and 6000-series aluminum is very resistent to strength-related degradation from corrosion. I've seen even 7000-series aluminum (considered one of the more susceptible alloys) housings that were immersed in salt water for years, withstand 10,000 psi external pressure.
As for dry salt - this is why periodic washing is recommended. I've had many steel component-equipped (far worse than aluminum) vehicles throughout many, many winters while living back east and not one had a severely corroded frame. I washed my cars, topside and bottomside and I would expect that C5 owners would do the same.
You must not have remembered all the corroded steel frames from cars made pre-80s - far worse than what can happen to common aluminum alloys or even modern-day galvanized steel. Believe me when I say that there are differences in corrosion severity to aluminum alloys and what you've seen could well have been alloys that are more susceptable to corrosion. However, 5000 and 6000-series aluminum is very resistent to strength-related degradation from corrosion. I've seen even 7000-series aluminum (considered one of the more susceptible alloys) housings that were immersed in salt water for years, withstand 10,000 psi external pressure.
As for dry salt - this is why periodic washing is recommended. I've had many steel component-equipped (far worse than aluminum) vehicles throughout many, many winters while living back east and not one had a severely corroded frame. I washed my cars, topside and bottomside and I would expect that C5 owners would do the same.
I admit that there are many alloys of aluminum. Those buses were actually thick sheets of aluminum riveted together, monocoque style, like a big airplane. I don't know what alloy GM used. As for airplanes, I thought that 2024 T-3 was the common alloy used. Motorcycle engine covers? I don't know the alloys used in cast aluminum.
I am not familiar with the 5000-6000 series of aluminum as far as corrosion. Having been a machinist, I have machined 6061-T-6, but don't know about it's anti-corrosion proporties
From what I have seen of what happens to aluminum with salt, I still would never do it.
Do you know what the alloys used in the various components of a C5 are? The engine block, that big stressed oil pan, the transaxle case, the A arms, the subframes?
I'd be curious to know what they are, and what anticorrosion abilities they have.
Last edited by Arnie Guitar; 10-22-2006 at 10:09 AM.
10-22-2006, 07:16 PM
#105
Race Director
Here's a couple of alloys, their descriptions and uses:
3000 Series
Manganese is the principal alloying element in this group. These alloys are not heat treatable. They have a superior combination of corrosion resistance and formability. 3002 Trim, nameplates, appliqués
3003 Braze-clad welded radiator tubes, heater cores, radiator, heater and evaporator fins, heater inlet and outlet tubes, oil coolers, and air conditioner liquid lines
3004 Interior panels and components
3005 Radiator, heater and evaporator fins
3102 Extruded condenser tubes
5000 Series
Magnesium is one of the most effective and widely used alloying elements for aluminum, and is the principal element in the 5000 series alloys. When it is used as the major alloying element or combined with manganese, the result is a moderate- to high-strength, non-heat-treatable alloy. Alloys in this series are readily weldable and have excellent resistance to corrosion, even in marine applications.
5005 Trim, nameplates, appliqués
5052 Interior panels and components, truck bumpers and body panels
5182 Inner body panels, splash guards, heat shields, air cleaner trays and covers, structural and weldable parts, load floors (sheet)
5252 Trim
5454 Various components, wheels, engine accessory brackets and mounts, welded structures (i.e. dump bodies, tank trucks, trailer tanks)
5457 Trim
5657 Trim
5754 Inner body panels, splash guards, heat shields, air cleaner trays and covers, structural and weldable parts, load floors (sheet)
6000 Series
Alloys in this group utilize magnesium and silicon in various proportions to form magnesium silicide, making them heat treatable. A major alloy in this series is 6061, one of the most versatile of the heat-treatable alloys. The magnesium-silicon (or magnesium-silicide) alloys possess good formability and corrosion resistance with high strength.
6009 Outer and inner body panels, load floors, bumper face bars, bumpers reinforcements, structural and weldable parts, seat shells
6010 Outer and inner body panels, seat shells and tracks
6022 Outer and inner body panels
6053 Mechanical fasteners
6061 Body components (extruded), brackets (extruded and sheet), suspension parts (forgings), driveshafts (tubes), driveshaft yokes (impacts and forgings), spare tire carrier parts (extruded), bumper reinforcements, mechanical fasteners, brake cylinders (extruded), wheels (sheet), fuel delivery systems
6063 Body components (extruded)
6082 General structural, brake housings
6111 Body panels
6262 Brake housings, brake pistons, general screw machine parts (anodized)
6463 Luggage racks, air deflectors
Aluminum blocks are generally cast from 319 or A380 alloys.
All-in all, aluminum alloys used in automotive applications are very corrosion-resistant. So if you get caught in salty slush, rinse the underbody when you have a chance and relax - you are in good hands!
3000 Series
Manganese is the principal alloying element in this group. These alloys are not heat treatable. They have a superior combination of corrosion resistance and formability. 3002 Trim, nameplates, appliqués
3003 Braze-clad welded radiator tubes, heater cores, radiator, heater and evaporator fins, heater inlet and outlet tubes, oil coolers, and air conditioner liquid lines
3004 Interior panels and components
3005 Radiator, heater and evaporator fins
3102 Extruded condenser tubes
5000 Series
Magnesium is one of the most effective and widely used alloying elements for aluminum, and is the principal element in the 5000 series alloys. When it is used as the major alloying element or combined with manganese, the result is a moderate- to high-strength, non-heat-treatable alloy. Alloys in this series are readily weldable and have excellent resistance to corrosion, even in marine applications.
5005 Trim, nameplates, appliqués
5052 Interior panels and components, truck bumpers and body panels
5182 Inner body panels, splash guards, heat shields, air cleaner trays and covers, structural and weldable parts, load floors (sheet)
5252 Trim
5454 Various components, wheels, engine accessory brackets and mounts, welded structures (i.e. dump bodies, tank trucks, trailer tanks)
5457 Trim
5657 Trim
5754 Inner body panels, splash guards, heat shields, air cleaner trays and covers, structural and weldable parts, load floors (sheet)
6000 Series
Alloys in this group utilize magnesium and silicon in various proportions to form magnesium silicide, making them heat treatable. A major alloy in this series is 6061, one of the most versatile of the heat-treatable alloys. The magnesium-silicon (or magnesium-silicide) alloys possess good formability and corrosion resistance with high strength.
6009 Outer and inner body panels, load floors, bumper face bars, bumpers reinforcements, structural and weldable parts, seat shells
6010 Outer and inner body panels, seat shells and tracks
6022 Outer and inner body panels
6053 Mechanical fasteners
6061 Body components (extruded), brackets (extruded and sheet), suspension parts (forgings), driveshafts (tubes), driveshaft yokes (impacts and forgings), spare tire carrier parts (extruded), bumper reinforcements, mechanical fasteners, brake cylinders (extruded), wheels (sheet), fuel delivery systems
6063 Body components (extruded)
6082 General structural, brake housings
6111 Body panels
6262 Brake housings, brake pistons, general screw machine parts (anodized)
6463 Luggage racks, air deflectors
Aluminum blocks are generally cast from 319 or A380 alloys.
All-in all, aluminum alloys used in automotive applications are very corrosion-resistant. So if you get caught in salty slush, rinse the underbody when you have a chance and relax - you are in good hands!
10-22-2006, 08:20 PM
#106
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Add me to list of driving my C5 all winter, i can't wait it was one of the perks for moving out of long Island NY.....I wont miss the winters back in NY and neither will my corvette! Hopefully my new state South Carolina will continue to have a mild & quick winter if they call it that!
10-22-2006, 08:38 PM
#107
Pro
Drive my vettes in the winter!!!!! You got to be kidding me. Come December or even the end of November, this is what it will like at my home on a daily basis more times than not.
10-23-2006, 12:44 AM
#110
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by Shylor
When another vehicle slides into all you winter driving Corvette drivers, you will have wished you didn't drive it in the snow.
10-23-2006, 01:55 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by chocoholic
That being the case, wouldn't it also be advisable to avoid accidents by not driving at night, or in the morning, or in the fog, or in the rain, using valet parking, going to the supermarket, driving behind anyone, driving through puddles, going to restaurants, driving during the pollen season... oh, wait a minute....
10-23-2006, 02:00 AM
#113
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I bought a truck to drive on the really nasty days. It isn't that I don't want to, it's more I am afraid of people hitting me! Plus, you can't really enjoy the car going 5mph down a icy road. If you have to....great, but I understand those who put the cars away. A lot of it too, was I hate seeing my car dirty.
10-23-2006, 06:43 AM
#114
Burning Brakes
Until the snow flies..... & Streets are salted.
Originally Posted by Superus
I'm in chicago and it's starting to freeze up here. Who's going to be driving their corvettes in the winter? Even with snow on the ground? Pictures would be good too!
10-23-2006, 08:06 AM
#115
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by Shylor
Actually yes and no. At night you don't slide around like in rain or the snow....Sport's cars were not made for either, it's just a fact. A parking valet never touches ANY of my cars. My Corvette also never sees a supermarket parking lot...I've seen to many runaway carts. If you want to treat your Corvette like an SUV or beater car go right ahead. I want mine to look like new for long after it is paid for.
http://www.idavette.net/hib/ah1.htm
Many Corvette owners are either too timid or too proud to drive their cars in severe winter weather but, on snow and ice with the right tires and ABS/TCS/AH, C5 is a pretty darn good car. Goodyear has an Eagle M+S (mud and snow) EMT tire in both the front and rear C5 sizes. At GM's winter testing facility just south of the Canadian border in Kinross, Michigan and in the Rocky Mountain states, C5, shod with four Goodyears M+Ss, has been tested extensively. Engineers, who've driven the car in severe weather conditions, say that, until the snow gets so deep that ground clearance becomes a factor, the C5 with Active Handling and four of Goodyear's EMT M+S tires, is quite an effective heavy weather car.
You are probably wondering, "What's with the mud and snow tire stuff? Hel-loooooooo---Corvette is a performance car not a darn snocat." True but the nice thing about C5 is it's been validated in an amazingly wide range of transportation duties.
You are probably wondering, "What's with the mud and snow tire stuff? Hel-loooooooo---Corvette is a performance car not a darn snocat." True but the nice thing about C5 is it's been validated in an amazingly wide range of transportation duties.
10-23-2006, 08:59 AM
#116
Safety Car
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I will be driving mine most of the winter. Here in CO despite what people believe we don't get too much snow and I can usually just drive my truck on bad days.
10-23-2006, 09:36 AM
#118
Team Owner
California here! So we'll be able to drive the Vette at times during the winter months! Not in the rain though(as long as it can be avoided, that is).
Thanks,Matt
Thanks,Matt
10-23-2006, 12:15 PM
#120
I drive mine all year round in good weather-no snow or rain.When it snow's I'll wait for a good rainstorm to wash the salt to the sides of the road.I don't like my vehicles to sit for too long.