You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5
06-12-2004, 02:07 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5
I've recently changed a few things on my Cerra Racing Single Turbo kit and for poopies and giggles decided to put the car on the dyno to test a/f, knock, boost curve and power. On 12psi, the car made 600rwhp @5800rpm and 598rwtq@3,700rpm. Power cleared 600rwhp at 5800rpm and stayed there until I let off the throttle at 6400. Power neither increased nor decreased until I let off the throttle. There is probably more power to be had in the tune, as the dyno sheet shows a very choppy line (almost thought I had knock, but atap confirmed that knock never went over .5) I do however, I think that I'm somewhat down on efficiency (hp/# of boost), primarily due to my cam selection which is more of a N/A or S/C profile. I've recently changed ic's (using A&A's FMIC) and turbo (using T76gts). I changed intercoolers setups to provide more hood clearance and ended up improving the intact tract to the turbo (boost now hits, sticks and holds). Power does hit a little sooner, despite going to a larger turbo.The turbo change itself probably didn't change much, as I don't think I am yet in the efficient range of the turbo.
Now, I hope that this doesn't digress into a Cerra Racing thread, as this threads intent isn't to address problems with them or their kit. This purpose of this thread is to let prospective turbo owners know that a single turbo is capable of making big power on a stock cube motor. Hopefully I will be able to address questions on single turbos on big cube motors very soon.
[Modified by Earl H, 2:08 PM 6/12/2004]
Now, I hope that this doesn't digress into a Cerra Racing thread, as this threads intent isn't to address problems with them or their kit. This purpose of this thread is to let prospective turbo owners know that a single turbo is capable of making big power on a stock cube motor. Hopefully I will be able to address questions on single turbos on big cube motors very soon.
[Modified by Earl H, 2:08 PM 6/12/2004]
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06-12-2004, 03:23 PM
#3
Le Mans Master
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Earl H)
earl keep me up to date as illl be in the market for twins in the near future. those # are sweet all that torque at such low rpm and flat like that has to be so much tire spinin' fun.
nick :mad :mad :mad :mad :mad
nick :mad :mad :mad :mad :mad
06-12-2004, 03:35 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Z06GMAN)
WOW Earl......so when are you going to get some REAL POWER 
...and a rear end to hold it.
06-13-2004, 12:22 AM
#6
Drifting
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Earl H)
Earl those are great numbers. Are those with your new engine? And I am a bit blurry on why you changed to A&A's intercooler??
Great numbas though!!!!
Great numbas though!!!!
06-13-2004, 12:22 AM
#7
Le Mans Master
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Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Earl H)
Those are some respectful numbers..I would however expect to see a little more hp out of 12lbs of boost. What Turbo are you running in there now? We can look at the Turbo Map and see how many lbs per minute it is rated at. What AR do you have on the Turbine Side? One thing about Single Turbos that differs a lot from Twins is that you are pushing the exhaust out of one exhaust pipe and utilizing a crossover. I am heading this to the question of how big is your down pipe? It is good to see that you are holding power to redline...did you measure the manifold backpressure? It really should be lower than 2:1...1:1.5 preferably.
Check out the FBody LS1 Turbos...if they can do it we can. But that is the best results I have seen out of the Cerra kit to date.
Here is a Turbo Map for a T76
http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/turboneticst76.html
If you eliminate most of your back pressure issues this Turbo should supply enough air to easily make 800rwhp.
[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 9:33 PM 6/12/2004]
Check out the FBody LS1 Turbos...if they can do it we can. But that is the best results I have seen out of the Cerra kit to date.
Here is a Turbo Map for a T76
http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/turboneticst76.html
If you eliminate most of your back pressure issues this Turbo should supply enough air to easily make 800rwhp.
[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 9:33 PM 6/12/2004]
06-13-2004, 12:43 AM
#8
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Shinobi'sZ)
Those are some respectful numbers..I would however expect to see a little more hp out of 12lbs of boost. What Turbo are you running in there now? We can look at the Turbo Map and see how many lbs per minute it is rated at. What AR do you have on the Turbine Side? One thing about Single Turbos that differs a lot from Twins is that you are pushing the exhaust out of one exhaust pipe and utilizing a crossover. I am heading this to the question of how big is your down pipe? It is good to see that you are holding power to redline...did you measure the manifold backpressure? It really should be lower than 2:1...1:1.5 preferably.
Check out the FBody LS1 Turbos...if they can do it we can. But that is the best results I have seen out of the Cerra kit to date.
Here is a Turbo Map for a T76
http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/turboneticst76.html
If you eliminate most of your back pressure issues this Turbo should supply enough air to easily make 800rwhp.
[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 9:33 PM 6/12/2004]
Check out the FBody LS1 Turbos...if they can do it we can. But that is the best results I have seen out of the Cerra kit to date.
Here is a Turbo Map for a T76
http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/turboneticst76.html
If you eliminate most of your back pressure issues this Turbo should supply enough air to easily make 800rwhp.
[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 9:33 PM 6/12/2004]
Same engine. I just verified that the carbon fiber intake bonnet that originally
came with the kit is a restriction. By my guess at anything above 8psi. The best way to get unobstructed air is to lay the radiator down and pull you air (to the turbo) from in front of the radiator. Andy's kit come with 4inch inlet piping and 3 inch outlet piping. I ended using his kit because I prematurely sold my old ic setup. Turned out to be a good accident.
Kevin,
You are right about the efficiency, but as I said in the initial post, I think my cam is probably the culprit here. Its more of a S/C cam. There is more left in the current setup. If you look at the dyno curve, its clear that my a/f is way off (really resembled a usual baseline pull). I'm just not going to retune before I change a few things. ;-) The map for a turbonetics T76 is different than a PT76GTS and so is the horsepower rating. The car clearly has more in it...Re: holding boost to redline, the turbo is rated at 1,100fwhp. It will definitely hold boost at 12 psi and probably a lot more. A couple of supras have pushed 900rwhp with this turbo, however at much higher boost pressures. Crossover is 2.5" and the downpipe is 3" (good for 800rwhp). A PT76GTS is perfectly adequate (not exhaust limited) for a stock cube motor. Its when I move up in CIs that I'm a little worried. At that point I'll be measuring backpressure.
[Modified by Earl H, 1:24 AM 6/13/2004]
06-13-2004, 12:36 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
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Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Earl H)
Kevin,
You are right about the efficiency, but as I said in the initial post, I think my cam is probably the culprit here. Its more of a S/C cam. There is more left in the current setup. If you look at the dyno curve, its clear that my a/f is way off (really resembled a usual baseline pull). I'm just not going to retune before I change a few things. ;-) The map for a turbonetics T76 is different than a PT76GTS and so is the horsepower rating. The car clearly has more in it...Re: holding boost to redline, the turbo is rated at 1,100fwhp. It will definitely hold boost at 12 psi and probably a lot more. A couple of supras have pushed 900rwhp with this turbo, however at much higher boost pressures. Crossover is 2.5" and the downpipe is 3" (good for 800rwhp). A PT76GTS is perfectly adequate (not exhaust limited) for a stock cube motor. Its when I move up in CIs that I'm a little worried. At that point I'll be measuring backpressure.
[Modified by Earl H, 1:24 AM 6/13/2004]
You are right about the efficiency, but as I said in the initial post, I think my cam is probably the culprit here. Its more of a S/C cam. There is more left in the current setup. If you look at the dyno curve, its clear that my a/f is way off (really resembled a usual baseline pull). I'm just not going to retune before I change a few things. ;-) The map for a turbonetics T76 is different than a PT76GTS and so is the horsepower rating. The car clearly has more in it...Re: holding boost to redline, the turbo is rated at 1,100fwhp. It will definitely hold boost at 12 psi and probably a lot more. A couple of supras have pushed 900rwhp with this turbo, however at much higher boost pressures. Crossover is 2.5" and the downpipe is 3" (good for 800rwhp). A PT76GTS is perfectly adequate (not exhaust limited) for a stock cube motor. Its when I move up in CIs that I'm a little worried. At that point I'll be measuring backpressure.
[Modified by Earl H, 1:24 AM 6/13/2004]
Just for reference Jim Hall's TT put out close to 600rwhp on a stock 2002 LS6 with the only change being 75cc heads. The cam was stock. The boost was only 8.5lbs. These are the results I would expect to see from properly sized Turbos...notice how the boost is not over 10lbs but the Turbos are moving the necessary CFM/lbs per minute to make the hp. I drove the car and it was smooth as silk...even though it was leaving some black tread marks on the street with BFG KD Drag Radials....and it pulled until I backed off...I do road testing in 3rd gear from a roll usually to put load on the motor and not have to do 145mph to tach out like one would have to do in 4th. So 8.5lbs of boost as much hp as your setup on a stock LS6 with 75cc Heads to lower the CR to 9.3:1. To quote Corky's book....if your are going to copy a design...copy a good one. Like I mentioned above I think you have maximized give or take 30rwhp the Cerra Kit (and am impressed by it) but there are other LS1 Single Turbo Kits making more hp...and I don't think it has anything to do with the cam..but am totally willing to stand corrected with my foot in mouth if you prove me wrong. If your Turbo is good for 800+hp...do you really think you will gain 200hp from a cam swap. I think the culprit lies somewhere else...just trying to help not hurt.
Oh by the way this is my idea of a properly sized Turbo and Kit application. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181191
[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 9:40 AM 6/13/2004]
06-13-2004, 02:02 PM
#11
Drifting
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Shinobi'sZ)
I think the culprit lies somewhere else...just trying to help not hurt.
06-13-2004, 02:16 PM
#12
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Shinobi'sZ)
Kevin,
You are right about the efficiency, but as I said in the initial post, I think my cam is probably the culprit here. Its more of a S/C cam. There is more left in the current setup. If you look at the dyno curve, its clear that my a/f is way off (really resembled a usual baseline pull). I'm just not going to retune before I change a few things. ;-) The map for a turbonetics T76 is different than a PT76GTS and so is the horsepower rating. The car clearly has more in it...Re: holding boost to redline, the turbo is rated at 1,100fwhp. It will definitely hold boost at 12 psi and probably a lot more. A couple of supras have pushed 900rwhp with this turbo, however at much higher boost pressures. Crossover is 2.5" and the downpipe is 3" (good for 800rwhp). A PT76GTS is perfectly adequate (not exhaust limited) for a stock cube motor. Its when I move up in CIs that I'm a little worried. At that point I'll be measuring backpressure.
[Modified by Earl H, 1:24 AM 6/13/2004]
I will be interested in seeing just how much a difference the cam does make. I am not a believer in them yet. I have seen people use reverse split patterns to make up the difference for an undersized turbo with a bad manifold design and I have seen LPE use a standard split pattern cam in their setups and make all sorts of power. Then there is the extreme which is Harlan on the other board who has made 800+rwhp and used a cam with lots of overlap and duration lsa was either 110 or 112..that goes against what all the supposed turbo experts have preached. So I am more convinced that the Turbo and kit components should be matched to the CFM of the motor and Valve Events associated with the cam. I look forward in seeing what improvements you gain by switching the cam..whether they are marginal or large it will be nice to see. Are you changing anything else or just the cam?
Just for reference Jim Hall's TT put out close to 600rwhp on a stock 2002 LS6 with the only change being 75cc heads. The cam was stock. The boost was only 8.5lbs. These are the results I would expect to see from properly sized Turbos...notice how the boost is not over 10lbs but the Turbos are moving the necessary CFM/lbs per minute to make the hp. I drove the car and it was smooth as silk...even though it was leaving some black tread marks on the street with BFG KD Drag Radials....and it pulled until I backed off...I do road testing in 3rd gear from a roll usually to put load on the motor and not have to do 145mph to tach out like one would have to do in 4th. So 8.5lbs of boost as much hp as your setup on a stock LS6 with 75cc Heads to lower the CR to 9.3:1. To quote Corky's book....if your are going to copy a design...copy a good one. Like I mentioned above I think you have maximized give or take 30rwhp the Cerra Kit (and am impressed by it) but there are other LS1 Single Turbo Kits making more hp...and I don't think it has anything to do with the cam..but am totally willing to stand corrected with my foot in mouth if you prove me wrong. If your Turbo is good for 800+hp...do you really think you will gain 200hp from a cam swap. I think the culprit lies somewhere else...just trying to help not hurt.
Oh by the way this is my idea of a properly sized Turbo and Kit application. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181191
[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 9:40 AM 6/13/2004]
You are right about the efficiency, but as I said in the initial post, I think my cam is probably the culprit here. Its more of a S/C cam. There is more left in the current setup. If you look at the dyno curve, its clear that my a/f is way off (really resembled a usual baseline pull). I'm just not going to retune before I change a few things. ;-) The map for a turbonetics T76 is different than a PT76GTS and so is the horsepower rating. The car clearly has more in it...Re: holding boost to redline, the turbo is rated at 1,100fwhp. It will definitely hold boost at 12 psi and probably a lot more. A couple of supras have pushed 900rwhp with this turbo, however at much higher boost pressures. Crossover is 2.5" and the downpipe is 3" (good for 800rwhp). A PT76GTS is perfectly adequate (not exhaust limited) for a stock cube motor. Its when I move up in CIs that I'm a little worried. At that point I'll be measuring backpressure.
[Modified by Earl H, 1:24 AM 6/13/2004]
I will be interested in seeing just how much a difference the cam does make. I am not a believer in them yet. I have seen people use reverse split patterns to make up the difference for an undersized turbo with a bad manifold design and I have seen LPE use a standard split pattern cam in their setups and make all sorts of power. Then there is the extreme which is Harlan on the other board who has made 800+rwhp and used a cam with lots of overlap and duration lsa was either 110 or 112..that goes against what all the supposed turbo experts have preached. So I am more convinced that the Turbo and kit components should be matched to the CFM of the motor and Valve Events associated with the cam. I look forward in seeing what improvements you gain by switching the cam..whether they are marginal or large it will be nice to see. Are you changing anything else or just the cam?
Just for reference Jim Hall's TT put out close to 600rwhp on a stock 2002 LS6 with the only change being 75cc heads. The cam was stock. The boost was only 8.5lbs. These are the results I would expect to see from properly sized Turbos...notice how the boost is not over 10lbs but the Turbos are moving the necessary CFM/lbs per minute to make the hp. I drove the car and it was smooth as silk...even though it was leaving some black tread marks on the street with BFG KD Drag Radials....and it pulled until I backed off...I do road testing in 3rd gear from a roll usually to put load on the motor and not have to do 145mph to tach out like one would have to do in 4th. So 8.5lbs of boost as much hp as your setup on a stock LS6 with 75cc Heads to lower the CR to 9.3:1. To quote Corky's book....if your are going to copy a design...copy a good one. Like I mentioned above I think you have maximized give or take 30rwhp the Cerra Kit (and am impressed by it) but there are other LS1 Single Turbo Kits making more hp...and I don't think it has anything to do with the cam..but am totally willing to stand corrected with my foot in mouth if you prove me wrong. If your Turbo is good for 800+hp...do you really think you will gain 200hp from a cam swap. I think the culprit lies somewhere else...just trying to help not hurt.
Oh by the way this is my idea of a properly sized Turbo and Kit application. http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181191
[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 9:40 AM 6/13/2004]
Make sure you are comparing apples to apples. My setup is an everyday nothing special (not 100+ dyno tuning runs car). If I could show you my dyno charts, you would see that there is some more tuning to be done. Also, I don't have hogged out heads and my setup isn't optimized in any way. Anybody could take my kit and bolt it on and make the same numbers with minimum support. That is really all I'm trying to show. The mega hp guys have a LOT of R&D and time into their setups. Cerra is no longer around so one could have a single header, crossover and downpipe designed and have a good power producing kit for minimal investment.
Re: the other high hp setups...I've spoken to Matt Harlan personally and many others that you mention. These are all-out high octane race cars. The comparison to our cars vs. F-Bodies isn't a fair direct comparison. Our cars will always make less rwhp than F-bodies with comparable setups due to our drivetrains (less efficient and eat up hp). I have spoken to a few engineers where I work and they have confirmed this. Although, DSI tuned a QMP kitted F-body with a T76 and my car made a bit more hp with a T71. Very similar setup from a kit standpoint. To me these are REAL WORLD numbers as this guys car is a daily driver.
There is a F-Body guy (LSITECH board) running a TTI race kit that makes 630rwhp at about 12 psi on pump gas. There is probably at least 20-30rwhp left in the setup with a little more optimal tune. So the results are pretty consistent.
As far as Jim's setup, all I can say is I don't believe everything I read (this is not a dig at Jim Hall, here is a thread w/dynos of his kit at 7.5lbs.-see corrected numbers: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zero...=725324&page=1
). Same holds true for the LPE cars. There are a few Stage II's running around MI that have been on a few Mustang Dynos and well...lets just say that what people claim and reality are sometimes not the same. Doesn't mean they are bad cars and there are some kickass LPE cars running around. One thing to remember though, is that the LPE and Halltech Kits are all mega dollar setups. My kit isnt.
Regarding my setup: I will be changing a lot more than just the cam. My new setup WILL test the limits of the Cerra System, moreso because of packaging constraints. Ideally, I need a T6 large frame turbo for my next setup, but it won't fit. So I'm going to push the envelope with this setup.
I hope some of the other turbo guys/developers chime in...because these types of threads can provide a great deal of knowledge.
[Modified by Earl H, 4:34 PM 6/13/2004]
06-13-2004, 02:19 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (BlackSun!)
I think the culprit lies somewhere else...just trying to help not hurt.
My vote is the downpipe. Earl, Do you have the newer revision with the wastegate up underneath the car?
My vote is the downpipe. Earl, Do you have the newer revision with the wastegate up underneath the car?
[Modified by Earl H, 2:21 PM 6/13/2004]
[Modified by Earl H, 4:31 PM 6/13/2004]
06-13-2004, 02:51 PM
#14
Drifting
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Earl H)
I agree Earl, I would be VERY happy to get my car to 600rwhp/600rwtq!!!! Infact my goal is to get to 550/550 after having my engine redone. I'm sure that T-72 should handle it.
I gotta try and keep up with Gary.
[Modified by BlackSun!, 1:52 PM 6/13/2004]
I gotta try and keep up with Gary.
[Modified by BlackSun!, 1:52 PM 6/13/2004]
06-13-2004, 03:30 PM
#15
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Earl H)
Just Curious what kinda times your seeing at the track? 600rwhp should be good for 10.40's at bout 130ish...
06-13-2004, 03:43 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Icetech)
Havent taken it to the track since Ive changed my setup. Before changing the turbo and intercooler, I went twice and the best I was able to muster was 12.0 @ 127/128ish (F1 tires, 2.4 60ft.). I will be taking it to the track after Ive tweaked a few things : and put in the driveline mods to put on a sticky tire. Should be some time in August.
[Modified by Earl H, 3:44 PM 6/13/2004]
: and put in the driveline mods to put on a sticky tire. Should be some time in August.
Just Curious what kinda times your seeing at the track? 600rwhp should be good for 10.40's at bout 130ish...
[Modified by Earl H, 3:44 PM 6/13/2004]
06-15-2004, 12:24 AM
#17
Le Mans Master
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Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (Earl H)
Cool that you talked to Harlan about his Turbo setup. Interesting the comparisons you make about FBody though. Most of the SC setups on the C5s make more hp than on the Fbody. I do realize they have less drivetrain loss I have sat through many Dyno Days and watched them continually turn higher rwhp on the dynojet. As for Jims numbers I was there at Andy's shop the first time he dyno'd it and saw the graph on Andy's computer. So if anything the hp numbers were lower than actual because Andy's correction factor is a .094 which means SAE corrected is actually a little less than Standard..its usually the other way around. However, I was not there the last time Jim dyno'd his car. But I did drive the car and wathced the boost guage and the on board AFR guage. I thought it was making about 9lbs of boost..but then again its hard to really watch the guage and the street. So if Jim says he is 8.5lbs of boost and I thought I saw 9lbs of boost..I will give it to Jim. One more thing I was at 12lbs of boost and not making the same amount of power as Jim's setup on pump gas...so I am comparing apples to apples...there are just some Apples that are left better in pies than eating right off the tree. No reading here...real experience tested on real vehicles with two different kits back to back...the same day. If you are making 12lbs of boost and not cracking 600rwhp...you have a back pressure issue...12lbs of boost with a Procharger will make way over 600rwhp. I have seen 10lbs of boost on a Stock LS6 with Headers make 605rwhp...but once again with a blower and Headers there is no back pressure..only some parasitic loss from driving the blower. Didn't Harlan tell you to take some manifold readings at the log or anything like that. I have to imagine he knows all this stuff better than anybody in the Single Turbo LSx departmetn...well Rob Raymer has done a lot of R&D..the two certainly did way more than Cerra...but what impresses me is that you are almost getting 600rwhp with the Cerra Kit. I will go back and look at what AR you are running on the Turbine Side..I already see that you have a 3" down pipe. I just look at what works...most of these WRX guys just change their down pipes and pick up 20-30rwhp...I really think it is paramount to consider those who have laid down the footsteps before us...and that is the ricers..they depend on Turbos because they don't have the displacement. We should be seeing LSx in the 1000-1400hp levels more with as many Turbos that have hit the market...but like you said it is what separates the "Street Kits" from the "Race Kits"..but when I see somebody trying to squeeze more out of their street kits to get more power...one has to start considering what the limiting factors are that differintiate between the two...and that gets down to some basics...what is the desired HP? What Turbo flows the correct numbers, and what are the design characteristics of the kit...(IC, Plumbing, internal/external Wastegates, etc..). One thing is for sure you got way more than the makers of the kit....maybe it is good for you that they are not around anymore.
06-15-2004, 11:24 AM
#19
Racer
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Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (SleepieAce)
I don't post to much info about other kits since I'm not here to **** any one else off. But yes, backpressure is the name of the game in the turbo world. I will tell you this one of the big name F-body kits at 12psi with a PTE-76Q-trim was seeing 48psi on the manifold side. A decent setup will do 2:1, a so-so setup will do 3:1..anything above that..well, you be the judge.
Jose
Jose
06-15-2004, 09:11 PM
#20
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Re: You CAN make big power with a Single Turbo on a C5 (JZ 97 SS 1500)
I checked out Jose's site...he's got one of the best "How to select a turbo..." sections that I've seen: http://www.forcedinductions.com - click on the "turbo, turbo selection 101" button. It even gives several LS1-based examples.
Time to get creative with my single setup (packaging)...If I can fit a T88 in there, looks like someone's going to get a great deal on a slightly used (<1k miles) PT76 GTS turbo.
[Modified by Earl H, 9:31 PM 6/15/2004]
Time to get creative with my single setup (packaging)...If I can fit a T88 in there, looks like someone's going to get a great deal on a slightly used (<1k miles) PT76 GTS turbo.
[Modified by Earl H, 9:31 PM 6/15/2004]
