supercoupe01

Anybody out there having success with going with a 382 stroker or bigger with procharger. I know belt slippage was a problem, wondering if anybody is currently on the street with this set-up. My car has P1 making 450rwhp at only 5lbs. of boost. I have 8-rib with ATI superdamper with custom idlers, 3.90's with hardened shafts, FLP's, looking to increase cubes in the near future. Have 7# system but made some intake and other mods that lowered my boost/hp. Decided not to go with another pulley to up boost for now. Car is running great after trial and error for the last year, coolant temps 178-180 all the time and the air fuel is perfect. Thanks for your help.


[Modified by supercoupe01, 11:29 AM 6/9/2003]

Shinobi'sZ

I have spoken with several 7liter procharger cars that work well on the street. If you are measuring success by 1/4 mile times...I haven't seen a big cube D1 car turn the type of times equal to the dyno horsepower.

supercoupe01

What has been their problem, belt slippage or not set-up to race with drag tire package? I'm measuring success on overall reliability, but would still like the car to run at its potential at the track. Of course I'm looking to go from 450rwhp to 600rwhp on a mainly street driven car. That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, but sounds like fun.

MattG

In my opinion, forget going big cubes with a ProCharger. I know more than one person that has unsuccessfully dumped $10K+ into fighting belt slippage issues. There have also been more than one post made by people/tuners saying they have the belt slippage issue tackled, but to later find out they did not. Some have unsuccessfully even tried cogged belts, which arent very streetable.

At most I would build a 346ci forged motor and up the boost a bit.

Shinobi'sZ

You can not run hi boost (>9lbs) with a D1 reliably with stock pistons...well maybe for a little while..but I don't know anybody that has lasted more than year....I hope this comment doesn't start a pissing contest..because I really don't want to name names..but I have about 6 of them I can think of right off the bat.

The only setup I have seen work reliably at a drag strip with a Super Stroker and a D1 are the kits equipped with the larger diameter crank pully and blower pully and were 8 rib pullies.

For stock displacement there have been 2 cars that have turned good 1/4 mile times (mid 10 sec). One with a Hybrid Single Intercooler and one with the ATI Twin Intercooler kit. The single intercooler cars have continually showed and improvement on the dyno over the twins..but at the track have not shown a significant gain...but if logical inference should dictate that the single intercooler is more efficient at cooling (dense charge of air) and yields less pressure drop.

If you still have a stock displacement motor and want a procharger I would sugest the following in order of preference. A&A Corvette's Hybrid Procharger setup or for a non modified setup MMS has a hi quality setup...and Andy sells MMS's setup as well. If you are willing to cut the RAD location I think A&A's is the "Best Bang For The Buck" for power and performance...both A&A's and MMS kits offer the new Brackets/pully system. I have not seen any track numbers with these new brackets but they certainly look better than ATI's. If I was doing an A&A kit I would have an 8 rib with larger Crank/Blower pully..thats the realy way to go IMO.

I personally would only do FI on small bores...I would just leave a 7 liter alone for the street...(plenty of power for street tires) and keep a 150-200 NOS shot available for the track. I am not talking trash about other peoples rides just what I would consider useful and cost efficient. The trick with overpowered street cars is putting power to the pavement without spinning..it actually can slow you down...but I am starting to feel like a hipocrate being that my Twin Turbo is almost complete. So good luck....remember Big Bore + 8 Rib larger Crank/Blower pully setup and you will be fine...hopefully....

NEPTUNEBILL

:iagree: with kevin, I stopped spinning my wheels (figuratively) about a year ago and watched while new products came on the market to cure the belt problems, intake problems, plumbing problems, pulley problems etc, I researched using my blower on a larger cube motor and found no one that was able to pull this off, I then decided it was time to forge the bottom, bigger heads, more boost, 8 rib pulleys, single IC, and when I figured it out it would cost me a mint to do these things and still have a car that may not ever work the way I wanted. My blower at about 6lbs is awesome on the street and with the new stuff out there a big cube with a blower would probably be very streetable, in the meantime I am about to drop a 436ci NA stroker in my car and Kevin has a new TT setup in his, does this tell you anything, and like kevin said the stroker is all the car you can handle for street tires and you can buckle the tanks in the back for the strip and spray away.

01SS

You may want to ask HIGHRPM. He runs an ATI on a 427. :steering:

supercoupe01

Thanks for your replies, I hear what your saying and after spending the money I have to this point, I'm not going to spend anymore unless its a proven package. My car runs great with no problems for the first in over a year and I'm going to enjoy it this summer.


[Modified by supercoupe01, 7:24 AM 6/10/2003]

LT5PWR

I am mid way into building a 383 with D1sc and 8 rib system. Cubic inches should have absolutely nothing to do with belt slippage. With the same sized pulley the larger cc engine should actually have less boost and therefor have less belt issues.

MattG

You don't feel that the extra cubes and extra N/A power of the motor will cause the engine to accelerate faster through the higher RPMs and require more belt traction to accelerate the SC faster as well?

Don't worry, you aren't trying something new.. I know of more than one reputable tuner with tons of FI experience that have been down the road you are going down and will never touch a big cube LS1 motor with a Procharger again!

But regardless, HAVE FUN! :D



[Modified by MattG, 12:04 PM 6/11/2003]

HIGHRPM

My initial 427 setup used a 3.4" pulley and didn't have any belt slippage.....the boost was only 5-6 lbs. I drove the car 350 miles home and had no problems of any sort. Next week MMS will install 6.0L LS6 heads, a 233/244 cam and a bigger intercooler. The new heads will increase the cr to about 10:1....the new intercooler flows almost twice the air at the same boost. I'm looking for 7 maybe 8 lbs boost. The initial setup made 618rwhp and 651rwtq below 5000 rpm. Above 5200 the motor was starving for air/fuel and went flat. The new heads flow over 325cfm and with the 233/244 cam and low restriction intercooler the overall performance could possibly reach 700/700.

The internals are:
C5R Race block 4.125" bore
Ross HD custom blower pistons 22cc dish
MMS Forged 4340 6.125" HD I beam Rods w/ ARP 2000 capscrews
Callies 4" LS1 Forged Stroker Crank
Child/Albert Moly File fit piston rings
Federal Mogul Main bearings
Clevite 'VN' Rod bearings
MMS 233/244 camshaft
GM Performance parts C5R timing chain
C5R timing chain dampner
MMS Ported LS6 oil pump
FelPro 1041 Head gaskets
MMS LS6 6.0L heads w/Yella Terra Shaft Mount Roller Rockers
REV dual springs, titanium retainers and bases

I'll post numbers and impressions in the new few weeks. :cheers:





[Modified by HIGHRPM, 1:49 PM 6/11/2003]

Shinobi'sZ

It is unfortunate that people are not willing to accept the facts. I always tell myself that I will not explain it again but I will with hopes of saving somebody some time, money, pain...whatever.

LT5PWR....you have a lot to learn about the ATI setup...and you will I guarantee it..you can come back afterwards and I don't think anybody will hold it against you.

Richard sorry I am not convinced by 350 miles of driving on the street that your belt will not slip at the track.

NOBODY and I REPEAT NOBODY has had any success using an ATI D1 on a 7 liter WITH ANY 6 rib system.

TWO PEOPLE on this forum and LS1TEch have made it into the 10's with 346 cid...one used a modified 6 rib with an Automatic Transmission and the other an 8 rib GWP system M6 tranny.

1 or 2 F Body 422 LS1's have made it into the 10's using an 8 rib system and bigger crank pully. Check the boosted list on LS1tech.com

I don't want to burst anybody's bubble on their project...but how you accelerate on the street is how you accelerate on the track..provided both are using street tires.....most ATI cars just spin the tires...this is due to not being able to get traction and NOT being able to put the power to the pavement.

When these cars have had MT/ET streets and do get traction...the belt spins and they end up turning high 11-13 second 1/4 mile at 112-124 mph...for a 600+ rwhp car..........it stinks.. A stock Z06 can break the 11's...with 405 bhp.

It is deceiving because the belts don't slip on the highway but your tires do..and when you have sticky drag slicks and the tires grip..then the belt slips...the gain is poor acceleration and either you are not putting the power to the pavement or you are and the blower is not making boost...until somebody proves otherwise...which many have not..then it is just a bunch crap and I hope somebody else does not get their hopes up on a package that can not deliver at the track...

If you are fine with having a car that just spins the wheels at 100 mph and that is what gives you excitement than I guess you have purchased the correct kit...but for me I want to know that what I have on the street will deliver on the track. I want the horsepower numbers to equate into low et's at the track...not hi dyno numbers.

Another interesting tid bit....the 2 ATI 346 C5's in the 10's on this board never made over 600rwhp.

Its time for the misleading with the ATI kit to stop...the facts are as proven and they stand as this:

A 346cid with a 6 rib and modified brackets or 8 rib system.

or

A big bore Super Stroker with a larger Crank Pully and Blower pully 8 Rib system.

These are the only two options ever to be presented to have shown the ATI kit to work on the street and track.

I don't think we need to do another thread or poll...like Brent did...asking how many ATI cars were in the 10's.....and nobody responded with 1000's of views and hundreds of kits out on the street....or do we...if we do start it up. :leaving:


[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 2:24 PM 6/11/2003]

Sir Sel

:iagree: Been there, tried that. Months later belt slippage/breakage still present and discontinued. Now I'm stroked/nos and happy. If I ever go to FI on this car or another it will be twin turbos only. :smash:

HIGHRPM

Hi Kevin, I understand all the problems that the ATI cars are having with belt slippage at the drags . I didn't build this car just to run at the drags...in fact I'm not interested in perfecting it just to run fast quarter miles. I like to drive it on the street, probably with the new BFG drag radials....and that puts me on even turf with anyone else on the street. I know alot of guys here on the Forum place great importance on drag times, I don't. I know it won't be able to use all the power, tires will burn and smoke, but thats the arena I chose to drive in. If I decide that I want to do alot of drag racing, then a custom 8-rib setup and suspension will no doubt be needed. I've been a mechanical engineer for over 25 years, I have a machine shop and if necessary I'll look into re-engineering it. I built the S/C 427 just because I wanted one to drive...I love the sounds and all the sensations I get from driving it. Kevin, I enjoy your posts and you are a great source of information ....thanks for all your help. :cheers:


[Modified by HIGHRPM, 6:10 PM 6/11/2003]

Shinobi'sZ

Rich,
You have an awesome car....without any doubts...there are maybe only 3-4 C5R 427's in this state....I am not trying to look out for you or me (its too late we have already been there) but the other guy who is going to embark on an expensive project. One that may take a while to complete. I agree that if you don't drag race your car and don't use that as a bench mark for performance than it is no big deal...but if that is the case I think just having a 427 would be all anybody would ever need N/A...but that is just me....I am more worried about the guy who is going to spend a bunch of money (and maybe he is like me and doesn't have $40K to spend on mods on top of the car). I want him to know that if he was considering a 427 with the ATI that he should go the extra mile and buy the 8 rib system like GWP sells...I am not affiliated with anybody... but GWP's system has been the only kit to really prove it on the strip on a big bore.

Believe me I was a solid fan of the ATI and knew how the car felt on the street with street tires..and everybody that went for a ride grinned and said holy s h i t! The car would burn my 335's at 85-100 mph. So the expectation for me was..when I get some traction at the track...I am going to KICK butt. But when it doesnt put the power to the ground with slicks on it...it can ruin rain on your parade real quick....it feels kind of stupid to be standing around saying yeah..my car made 600/545 rwhp/rwtq and turns 12 seconds in the 1/4 1.85 60' and 112 mph trap...Just take my word for it.

Anyway we it seems we always beat this issue..and the main reason I don't like to get into it is because of fear of upsetting my friends. I do believe the ATI works at the track..but no where near the way you buy the kit from ATI, brackets and pullies have to modified.

Anyway I am finished baggin...I look forward to seeing your car and meeting you in person at one of our events. I just got t say one last thing though :jester: You know if you took that blower off and put a 150 shot of NOS on it..not only would you have a very drivable 427 500/500 rwhp/rwtq for the street..but with some practice you would have a 9 sec car (when you wanted it)...and that is worth bragging about any day.

Peace Out! :thumbs:


Furthermore....I had very hi hopes for the ATI on the strip...this post reminds me so much of the one I think TurboLou posted 6-7 mos ago..I think it was "Never Supercharge a Z06" or something like that...and he was pissed becuase it would not work on the track..but I had an ATI so I jumped up to defend and now I am eating my words and if Lou was to say to me...I told you so..I would say I am sorry I didn't listen to you...we dump so much money into this stuff for our cars that we get to appoint where we start defending because of our investment alone...I mean the owners Manual on the ATI installation kit clearly shows a picture of a C5 and Mustang lined up at the Xmas tree on a drag strip...what we really needed to see was a photo of the finish.


[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 7:37 PM 6/11/2003]


[Modified by Shinobi'sZ, 7:49 PM 6/11/2003]

NEPTUNEBILL

Everybody listen to what's being said here, they have it great for the street at this point but have not got it down for hard launching, the inertia put out by the stroker when the tires stick will shread the belt, I even thought about just running a couple of pounds for an extra 50 or so hp on a stroker since I already have the blower but I still don't think the belt would stick. Also the expense of the new pulley setups and the single IC is some serious money, I am with Sel my 436 and a 150 shot if I find I can get to the track enough to make it worth while, I think Kevin is going to have a hell of a ride with his TT and hopefully not to many bugs to work out, AF and timing curve is extreme and very critical, I love NA and anything over about 425rw is going to have a problem with traction on street tires.

supercoupe01

I appreciate everyone expressing their opinnions, that is why I revisted this topic. I know it is a painful one for many including myself. My car only has 10,000 miles on it (less than 4000) with procharger. It was making 7-8 lbs. of boost when first installed and after all the other mods and dropping radiator and custom shroud/intakes, headers, 8-rib system, custom 3" idlers, 3.90's gears, it now is only making 5-6 pounds of boost with a new blow off valve.

I'm fortunate in one respect that I don't have to make any descisions right now because my car is not blown up but running perfect. I had the choice of raising the boost but decided to enjoy the car at 450rwhp. I was in traffic yesterday with a/c on and the car never got over 187. Before lowering radiator and bad tuning the car was at 230 +.

I posted this message because if I'm not going to up the boost unless I strengthen the bottom end. I was not really looking to go to a 7.0L, but if I was going into the motor I thought it would be good money to do a Lunati 382 stroker at the same time.

For now I will do nothing but enjoy the car as is. For others that quest for high hp numbers go with the proven packages. If I had to do it again a year and a half later I would have wrote a check to LPE for 20,000.00 for a TT.
(I don't lose any sleep over it, can't live in the past).

Who knows if I have problems in the future, still might.

Thanks for your constructive advice.

NEPTUNEBILL

I don't think you will have any problems with your current setup, I know all about the 230 degrees before lowering the radiator, that stupid shroud supplied in the kit blocks a third of the radiator, I spent the last year trying to decide the same thing you are going through and my setup is very similar, I was nuts over spending the money to forge the bottom and for a little more I could have a lot of cubes, its a pisser since big forged pistons don't cost more than small ones, I watched for the past year to see if anyone could make it work and everyone gave up that tried, if there was a way to have a short strong belt going directly to the blower and not wrapping the entire motor we would not be having these problems, the mustangs have a short belt going directly to the blower and don't have this problem, you can still run up to 8 lbs and 550rwhp with little danger to the motor but I bet you will have problems with sticky tires even at that, but in the meantime until someone comes up with the answer you have one bad street car.

HIGHRPM

Everything thats been said here will be of help to anyone looking into a S/C big bore. It appears that more development will be needed before a good drag racing setup is available. It may turn out that the 8-rib is the answer for the drags. If I have alot of problems with the 6-rib S/C on the street, I'll definitely switch to something else. Inrreasing the flow rates of the heads and intercooler will help to reduce some of the load on the S/C. I'm only boosting 7-8 psi and don't do hard launches on the street, but if the 6-rib fails here, then its an 8-rib. The new MMS pulley assembly is designed and can be converted to an 8-rib setup. Thanks again to everyone for their information. :cheers:

SvenOdin

Alot of practical/useful information here :thumbs:

I've been wrestling with the decision to go either stroker or FI, and the more I read and learn from others trials, errors, tribulations, etc., the more I think I'm going to go the 427ci route and leave it at that!

:cheers: