oufan2929

At what hp level is it necessary or recommended to start doing this? I know its for cooling purposes, but I don't know the exact details for how it works. could someone please explain?Thanks--Andy

gmf

It's useful for Forced induction systems if you want to push the system a little further. IE, your trying to get more boost and horsepower then a standard "out of the box" setup.

You can search this forums archives and see lots of great posts about it.

DOUG @ ECS

It comes on at a determined boost setting, depending on your needs.
Spraying a mist of alcohol into the intake wich couses a cooling effect due to rapid evaporation. It is usefull at all power levels to increase the effectivness of your S/C or turbo. Tuning can be brought to a much more aggressive level without any problem of detonation, wich is the leading cause of forced induction engine failure. On higher boosted vehicles that are just starting to run out of fuel, it can be used to complete the fuel system. Basicly running race fuel just when you need it.
Superchargers more so than turbos get effected by the weather,I.E. when it's cold out it is typical to see as much as 2 lbs higher boost. This can cause detonation problems when the car is making 10lbs but was tuned for 8 lbs. The alky kit comes with a "quik adjust" gain **** that can be raised fast for these type of situations. Or for another example if your "hot lapping" at the track it can be Quikly raised to compinsate.
Then there is the benifit of an extremly clean engine. The alky will keep carbon build up to a next to nothing level.
Then there is the benifit for the guys who can only get 91 octain crap gas, since it raises the octain just when you need it. It also would help if you got a tank of bad gas.

I think I covered everything, hope that helps

EatRice

Doug....ultimately using alky is the same as using race fuel and it is lets say a band aid for not using a larger better intercooler? That is how it is summed up in the simplest of terms correct? Essentially you can use an intercooler that does not effectively drop the intake temps. Now apply alky and the intake temps drop. Once the temps drop you are able to induce more timing which inturn makes more power. So if someone was to use a more efficent intercooler they could add more timing without the alky...right?

I find this topic so interesting, yesterday I ordered a book called "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell. I was told it answers this question and alot of other questions dealing with FI.

DOUG @ ECS

Yes and no,
It is the same as running race fuel in the respect to the octain level achieved, but race fuel does not offer any cooling effect. Also if you have a trailered race car running race gas is no big deal. If you have a street car you race, running race gas constantly is pricy and annoying.
Plus your running race gas the other 98% of the time you dont need it.

Calling alky injection a "band aid" is completly incorrect though. We make one of the largest intercoolers availible for our S/C kit. It is very efficiant but if it is 85 degres out there is absolutly no way IAT's will be at or below that. Alky lowers IAT's from there and also introduces additional oxygen since alky is made up of roughly 50% oxygen. Nitrous can oviously do this type of effect but does not have the same anti detonation effect. It will lower Iat's but will not raise octain levels.

Alky is not manditory by any means if your engine is built properly, you are in that catagory since you use a vey competant tuner. But I would be willing to bet you would see a minimum of 25rwhp gain by using this kit. I would even be willing to say if you would like to try it, I will send a kit to Sean N/C. If it doesn't work send it back, I'll even pick up the shipping. When you see the gains you will be happy to pay the $550. Let alone the added safty.

supercoupe01

If you have a n/a engine and you wish to raise the compression to a level that might require a mixture of race gas. Have you done any testing to see if you could run this system instead of mixing race gas. Or would it make more sense to just add a couple cans of torco and be done with it.

EatRice

Doug....we have been talking about using the alky on my car for a bit now. I am proably going to take you up on that offer. I am going to be in Georgia ina another week or two...hopefully finishing off the heads problem. Then we are going to look into the alky stuff a bit more. I will let you know.

One other thing. What happens when the alky runs out and you still have alot of timing in the car? Stay off the gas till the tank can be refueled?

Chris@East Coast Supercharging

Since we are using the factory wind sheild washer tank the low washer indicator will light up on the DIC and then its time to refill.

Tenderfoot

So how long does it last if you do a couple of WOTs runs during your daily drive. And, where do get refills from? How much for refills?

DOUG @ ECS

It's not like nitrous, you can get on average 2 tanks of gas to 1 fill of alky. It lasts pretty long even with a "lead foot" driver.

VP fuels can deliver it to your door, a 5 gal jug will last a very long time.

If you do run out and your not near an alky source you can either drive home casually or put water in it if your car is agressivly tuned. This would hinder performance some but eliminate detonation either way. Personally I would just drive casually, it only comes on under boost conditions so it's not going to effect the bulk of your driving time.

DOUG @ ECS

Bill,
It's in the development stage as we speak, we are hoping to be able to run n/a cars to 13+ :1 on pump gas. We should be done with it by the time you come back for your next "stage".

stevieturbo

So, how much of a difference is there between a water injection system, and an "alky" injection, and what exactly is the type of alcohol you are using ??

DOUG @ ECS

Alky injection systems require better hardware, pumps, etc. to handle the alky sitting in the system. Alky will produce more power than water for several reasons. Look in other posts there has been a ton of write ups by now. We use VP fuels race alky. We have also used Sunoco's race alky. This stuff can be ordered from them direct rather inexpensivly.

Southview

If you use the washer tank,do you lose the windsheild washer cleaning option?What happens when I need to clean the bugs off the windsheild.They stick pretty hard when the mag kicks in! No really do you loose that function?

asmokegars

Never fear - ECS has the solution. They can install a separate tank if you want to retain your W/W option. That is what I had them do.

Tony @ MPH

Chris/Doug,

Have you guys experimented with low level sensors for stand alone tanks? While I was putting together my dream alky system (mentally) I did some digging around the net and found a bunch of liquid presence sensors.... it seemed like it would be real straightforward to wire up a warning light to my pillar pod if the alky tank was low.

The only down side was that many of the sites I found would only sell in bulk (what am *I* going to do with 100 liquid presence sensors?) and the ones that would sell a single unit wanted a fairly hefty price for them ($50+).

asmokegars

When they come back up on the forum I am sure they will tell you the answer. Doug was putting multiple lights on the pod. The first was to indicate that the alky was on and the second was a low fill level warning light. Maybe they can post some pics since they have my car and it is not coming home until the snow melts.

QuickSilver2002

There are a ton of simple float based sensor available. Try http://www.mcmaster.com/ and go to page 466. I remember getting one for like $10.

Just to add to this thread:
Here are a few tricks I have learned about alky injection over the past few years.

1. Put a pressure switch in your system after the pump and before the nozzel(s). I have mine set to flip on at 100psi. This comes in very handy and will warn you if the pump is not working properly. It is not something you have to have, but I find it to be a good safety measure. I have the led on my pillar pod right next to the boost gauge.

2. You can buy methanol at walmart. It comes in little yellow bottles called HEET( gas/line dryer) Don't get the red bottle that is called ISO heat (you can guess what type of alky that is). It ends up being pretty cheap this way, although bulk is better. I stop by walmart and fill up this way all the time when I'm just out running around.

3. One of the big tricks to akly injection that people seem to miss is the cooling impact that it has inside the combustion chamber (not just IAT). I've posted about this before, but I'll say it one more time. Alky burns well at very rich ratios 6.x:1. That extra fuel is great at cooling the chamber and you don't get the downside of running a typical rich ratio. In fact, your WB AF reading will still be in the normal range 12.x or whatever, but the physical ratio in the chamber is much higher (WB AF meters have to be calibrated for a specific fuel type). Bottom line is, more fuel + a complete burn = more power without detonation.

MelloYellow

Has anyone measured/noted the Methanol evaporation/cooling effect?

I've heard 80-150* lower charge temps.
Best to measure without using an intercooler/aftercooler.

Tony @ MPH

As always, you da man Quick. 466 was very helpful... but page 470 is where the real switches are at ;-) How 'bout that $948 ultrasonic liquid level sensor...

To further add to the thread -- you can certainly get away with using your washer fluid tank to feed your alky pump, but for a few bucks more you could have a stand-alone tank. ECS posted some pics of a beautiful custom made tank that I think runs between $300 and $400 if you want a show piece, but you can also find plastic tanks for much cheaper.

As was discussed in another thread, a really good location for a tank is inside the driver fender well. If you got creative with the shape of the tank you could probably fit 1.5 to 2 gallons worth of fluid in there. That would last you a looooooonnnnnnnnggggg time. The only thing is, I wouldn't run pure methanol if I located my tank there -- it's outside of the frame and in the event of an accident, there's only a very thin layer of fiberglass and plastic sitting between something flamable and the other vehicle. I don't know what the flash point of 50/50 water/meth is, but it has to be much better than the flash point of pure meth.