Rkreigh

OK guys, some of us VA guys are trying to do this for less than the 54K LPE charges. here is some of my thoughts for you guys to shoot holes in (rather than in those expensive mahle pistons!!!). we have a couple people interested that are serious, have the $$$ and want to do it.

some initial thoughs,

start with 95 manifolds and make a custom SS pipe to position the turbos and wastegates snug up underneath the car like LPE does.

use a waldon scavange pump and a separate small oil tank and pressure pump to provide a decicated oiling system for the turbos. also a small decicated oil cooler.

use a pair of the factory GN T3 turbos, or perhaps a precision TE45 turbo for a "big HP" car. the GN turbos flow enough for 450 HP each, and the TE45s flow enough for 650 (overkill).

run air cleaners to a box in the gills (will require battery relocation on drivers side)

run the pressure side pipes up along the inner fenders. requires some wiring relocation, kinda tight there.

mount twin Buick intercoolers up front with a custom air box. cut and weld new inlet/outlet pipes on the buick intercoolers (these can be had for about 150-200 each).

tuning.

use a FAST computer and larger secondary injectors, keep the factory ECM and computer controlling the primary inj so that the dash and part throttle is OK. maybe go to a larger (220) primary injector and recal the chip too. thinking of about an 83 lb secondary injector. this will provide a total of over 100 lbs of fuel at full song. use the FAST WB O2 to controll the A/F by programming the secondary injectors under boost.

also thinking of "laying down" the radiator to give more room up front. this will require a custom radiator/brackets, but it may be needed unless I can fabriacate an intercooler/air box like LPE did and still get flow through the radiator.

alchy injection for detonation control. I would like to see if we can keep the high 11.1 CR and running low 5-7 psi boost on the street. turning the boost up will require race gas, lots of alchy, and as much octane as possible. unfortunately 104 octane is the best I can currently get in unleaded. not wanting to change O2 sensors every race like I do with my turbo buick running leaded race gas.

OK, now for the questions. I'm looking for help with some of the pipe bending. trying to NOT use 6K header from KOOKs, any alternatives???

looking to get 8-900 HP and LOTS of torque, without blowing up.

I believe it can be done. any thoughts??? looking to do this for 20-30K total investment or less without tearing the engine down (which may not be possible).

can the factory head combustion chamber be machined a bit to LOWER compression???

does anyone make custom pistons for the factory LT5 bore size???

are there any tuners that would like to assist with this???

our objective is to fabricate a "kit" and tuning approach that can be duplicated on 90-95 ZR1s without killing the car. I know a 415 would be easier and cheaper, that's not the point. I WANT a TT ZR1, and we are going to do it.

please give any advice/thoughts you have. TIA for comments. :yesnod: :reddevil

ZRWHAT

Ron,

Wouldn't it be a lot easier and more cost effective to just go the supercharger route instead of the turbo route? How about a belt driven "S" trim or a "T" trim on a basically stock motor or something in the way of a more aggressive intake camshaft to optimize boost? Sure seems like it would be more installer friendly and far less expensive then the TT set-up. Random thoughts...

ZR1

Let's do it bud!

Good call there.

You're going to run into much bigger problems on the passenger side. I looked at this a lot myself. The only other alternative was to do what Callaway did on their L-98 TTs intercooler location and have the inlet air coming through the hood.

Again, the passenger side is the biggest problem with both the A/C piping and the coolant fill tank and associated plumbing.

It would be a pain but perhaps you will need to run off of tables the entire time. This can easily be accomplished but the tuning will take several days on a dyno, perhaps weeks.

I would give serious consideration of going with an oil/water exchanger and that way you can dump the current oil cooler and place it just about anywhere you want.

I think you just killed any reason for the TT unless you just want a race car. I liked LPE's thinking of having a great running car with all the wonderful characteristics of a stock car around town. You just can't beat that combination.

For all the above reasons I would definately go with a 368. You are definately going to need better rods. The pistons may hold up but who would want to chance it after investing so much? As far as the cumbision chamber I'm sure you can do a little but the only way to go would be with dished pistons. Don't start making the wrong decisions but front.

OK, for the engine, you will need to do with a 368. If you are going over 750 hp I would go with Oliver rods for sure. With the 4" bore of the 368 I am sure there are good pistons available that are dished to lower compression. I would also stud the bottom end to help alevaite crank walk. You will definately need to do this.

Although I am not a tuner I can give some help. Although financially strapped at the moment and a layoff in my future, I can offer to turn a wrench but no finances.

My off the cuff remark, this will never be a "kit". The space limitation alone is enough to preclude it. But, it will be a fun project.

xsmph

When you see the 54K LPE charged for the 4 TT Zr-1's, the initial thought is
" what a rip off" for that kind of power...
BUT, seeing, understading and reading this post definetly opens the mind and makes anyone realize how involved a project like this could get. And this is only what you can imagine upfront. The kind of things and $$ you will encounter throughtout a project like this cna't be imagined right now.. that is why it costs what it costs....
Definetly it must be ncie to run on Pump gas 650-700 rwhp all the time with no bottles to fill up.. but the $$ and time are paid upfront BIG TIME!!
Then you got the calibrations issues....

Wide_One

Yep everyone here pretty much see it the way I do ....I have been under my car and looked at every place for the components and it's a logistical nightmare. But definitely do-able.....the Callaway intercooler looks best from a packaging point and I think relocation of some of the existing (like the ac lines and accumulator/oil cooler) are easily done. Also I see where the existing radiator and air box is under utilized space for sure. Being that a crate engine (mine) would be a good build and test platform let me know if this gets serious.

*89x2*

OK Ron, Houston has cleared you for re-entry... :D Good plan in theory (sounds an awful lot like the teal ZR1 TT Callaway I saw last year - angled radiator, etc... So you know it will work :) )
Sound interesting... Are you donating your new ZR1 for the project???

8388

I've been giving this some thought for awhile aswell, and the combination of an LT5 with twin turbo's would be hard to beat. The tuffest part would be getting the exhaust manifold adapted for the turbo's along with the proper spacing and alignment, the inter-coolers need to either be efficient (large) or be placed in direct path of cool air, maybe restructuring the area behind the nose to accept the inter-coolers and plumming. The factory oil cooler is very efficient and a very important issue with twin turbos, thus I would think twice before removing it. I'm sure this project can be done for less than $54K, but keeping it reliable will be the biggest factor.

GTB/ZR-1

Now this would be an awesome setup Ron...
I think you/we have the the right idea to start with-now if we could only execute...
This would be a mountainous project, as Julio mentioned--but it would certainly be worth the pain. Maybe you and Jim could put your heads together, and if you can prototype a car, have some of us be ready for a 'group purchase' to help subsidize some of your costs...Granted it would be after the fact though--unless some of us can come up w/ 'upfront/development' costs;)

threestar40

I think ya'll better lower the compression ratio ( so you can raise it back up ) . :smash:

I think I read we are at 12.5 : 1 as it is.

Doing this without taking the engine apart sounds insane to me. You will have to lower the "every explosion" compression ratio for sure to be successful.

AF ratio will be paramount for durability and reliabilty of any significance but I guess with O2 sensors and the right software it wouldn't be TOO hard, however, probably the most challenging part of the project.

If you can weld, the plumbing should be straightforward.

Have ya'll considered using one gigantic turbo and one air to liquid intercooler?
This might be better for obvious reasons. You should study up on all the turbos available (there are many) and all the heat exchangers that are shelvable and get the GN out of your head. Selecting the turbo will be easy if you know what kind of cfm and boost pressure you require. Finding the right intercooler will be difficult, Custom is awesome but not cost effective, to keep cost down, just find a heat exchanger that some manufacturer cranks out by the dozens...I was thinking you should mount it parallel to the radiator and ac condensor.
This is how it is in my volvo t5. The intercooler looks a lot like the other two heat exchangers ( ac and Rad. ) Also I thought ya'll might like to know another feature of my volvo is that it is a LIGHT PRESSURE turbo meaning 5 or 6 psi which also helps with durability.

My Grand National I owned before the ZR1 had a truly awesome drivetrain but I sold it and bought a normally aspirated car because I wanted a normally aspirated car. I had the little death spiral on that car turned to 18 psi and believe me it is extremely violent and makes more heat than anyone needs. The buicks were never truly successful race cars because of reliability problems and thats after a team of highly paid engineers did their best work on it...not just a bunch of hacks like us. I'm talkin' about JL himself too. I bet ultra will agree with me. Don't get me wrong, I love John L. and have read many of his books, but he is just one man. I don't think he is a hack, but again, one man.

I miss the turbo on my GN, but I wouldn't trade my ZR1 for the best GNX because it NOT turbo. All my GN buddies are running in the low 20 psi range for boost, but they know they better have the gas to go with it or its gonna be back on the engine stand in short order.

Just one false stroke and your toast. Holes in pistons and blown head gaskets. These motors don't have a heart or a conscience, even though we are good at forgetting that. :yesnod:

Tearing up a beautiful powerplant like the LT5 is absolutely insane in my mind no matter how unresistable it sounds, and is a little unresistable if you THINK you might have the resources to pull it off.

Why not go Turbo a small block and put it in something cheap for a trial run if this is the first time you have done anything like this. It would be a lot cheaper and the stakes are certainly a lot lower.

If its not your first, Go For It, Hell, Even if its not go for it. :chevy

I just think you should plan to the Nth degree. From your post, frankly it sounds like you know just enough to get you into trouble. Like ME.

Believe me I have been it trouble but always seem to pull it off, My wallet is still recovering and that part of it kind of sucks. I am very proud of what I've done though. Not very profound, but I did it.

Keep us posted.

Rick :cheers:

*89x2*

...Now where did I set down that book on home made turbo kits :confused: Really..I have tat book on turbo's..don't know if it is valid here but there might be some practical advice in it... :seeya

drmzr1

What about seeing if ATI would be willing to setup one of their new Prochargers for the ZR1? Self contained (no oil supply needed) and intercooled......Would be a ton easier and cheaper, especially if you're only after 5-7psi.

USAZR1

The problem with a supercharger is where do you put it? There is simply no room unless major mods are done.

Rkreigh

thanks for all the input guys. I agree that an engine tear down for stronger parts is a MUST. I also agree that turbo buicks are typically GRENADES and are kinda like hiding a brick by throwing it way up in the air, it only works for a little while. everyone is right that building a twin turbo small block (like a rocket) is easier, not interested. been done. I want a twin turbo LT5 and that's what it will be. No I'm not donating the 95. it's a pristine stock ZR1 that won't go under the knife for a while. we have a 90 with 125K that a fellow VA gent is interested in working on as the "mule". I am interested in helping him and donating parts, time, $$ and expertise to make it happen. if it's successful, the 95 may be next, time will tell.

no onto more engineering questions. plumbing and space constraints dictate that the twin turbo approach may be the most viable. A. it's been successfully done, B. turbos are more efficient than blowers, C. I have more desire for a twin turbo!!! D. the boost is easily adusted with wastegates.

I'm interested in who can help with welding up the plumbing. we will be using all Stainless steel for the hot side, and alum tubing for the plumbing from the turbo outlets into the intercoolers. we are also looking at an AIR/WATER "long strip" stle intercooler made by spearco that might fit just above the heads to simplify the plumbing nightmare. after having my car up on the lift, I can see what Jim is saying about the inlets to the turbos, there just isn't much room and relocation of components is a PITA that may have to be dealt with.

one issue I'm most interested in discussing is the use of a FAST or Motec computer to control the secondary injectors with a reprogrammed factory ECM retained for the "par throttle" operation and control of the primary injectors. my objective here is to keep the factory dash and integration with the ZR1 intact. we are also considering a set of "additional injectors" plumbed somewhere into the existing manifold. LPE used two additional injectors in the front of the plenum to supplement the factory injectors.

I would like anyone who has purchased an LPE TT to share any info they would be willing to give (Hint Paul D!!!) to help us out. since there won't be any more built by LPE, hopefully you guys would be willing to help us out here.

I am also interested in any details about "laying donw" the radiator as a means to get more space up front. Precision turbo, and spearco can help with the intercooler construction and getting sufficient flow to both the intercooler and cooling pack is a challenge as well as the overall "heat management" issues imposed by the turbo. we will be using lots of high tech coatings and shielding to help keep from cooking the engine.

I am also considering conversion over to a full dry sump, so that the scavange stages could be used to help evacuate the turbos. the electric walbro pumps seem more viable due to packaging constraints.

the one thing I favor about this approach is that a decicated oiling system would keep any "junk" from a turbo bearing failure out of the LT5.

I agree with everyone that this project must be researched to the Nth degree before doing anything. that's why I post all ideas for consideration. I'm no expert, but I do have 3 turbo cars, and have owned 2 turbo buicks since 87 so I have gained a little experience (alot of it bad!!!). trying hard to learn from the bumps on my head and leverage the experience of others.

if successful, we sincerely hope to bring a reliable 800 hp car to run and enjoy on the streets. occassional jaunts to the track will be enjoyed as well as reliablility of the car is a primary goal, which is challenging to say the least with the complexity of the turbos/tuning.

not the easiest thing to do, but lifes biggest challenges are the rewarding ones IMHO. I sincerely thank you all for your insights. Hope to see you in BG, I will be gathing the info and documenting my research to share with all.

TIA for your comments. :D

threestar40

A book like that, if its good, would probably be an invaluable resource.
All sounds very exciting. Better go get a home equity loan. ;)

The riceboys are doing this stuff like crazy. The secondary injectors are gonna be a nightmare, The other thought I had to make things more simple was to eliminate the secondaries and just get some gigantic primarys. I'm sure the hole in the intake could be closed up easily enough. switch out all your sensors to make them compatible with the new computer, get full time closed loop fuel control and thats a step. Could it be that simple?

Who knows. :chevy I would love to see how JL did it.
Might make a nice book or maybe the project is not worthy of a book.

Rick =)

threestar40

I have been dieing to ask you...where did BoostaMuv come from.

Like bust a move

boost a muv

It has a nice ring to it.

no doubt from your buick days.

Rick :cool:

Not Stock

That sounds like asking a lot. I doubt that anyone that paid 54 thousand dollars for modifications to make a unique car would like a ton of clones around to lower the value of their cars.

Rkreigh

ya, boostamuv is a turbo twist on the wrap "bust a move"

LPE won't talk too much and I don't blame them, they are a tuner and expect to be paid. the big primary thing could work, but BIG injectors are tougher to get part throttle driveability. but they can work. the buick guys routinely run 72 and even 83 inj on the street with a stock ecm with good chip programming. these guys were hacking chips when the zr1 was on the drawing board.

yes, I must admit, the seductive power of the little bent six and the current turbo movement has alot to do with desire to do this. seeing Paul D's car in BG supplied the rest. I KNOW this can be done, the question is how much and can us poor bumpkin engineers figure out how to do what LPE did.

I think we can. it just will take time, money, and LOTS of patience. since both of us have a "spare" ZR1, parting with one to work on it will be OK.

Jim

we will be contacting you concerning the engine build. my current thinking leans towards keeping the factory injectors at 220 cc, and ADDING 8 additional injectors somewhere in the plenum. this will require a taller hood and some ugly external fuel rails, but it will be ez to service. it will also require some angled "bungs" to get the targeting at the primary ports worked out. with the engine on boost, the fuel shouldn't puddle up too bad as long as they are aimed ok. not sure if we could just go with bigger factory injectors and reprogram the factory ecm, that would certainly be the least expensive option, but the wide band O2 support is pretty critical to help the computer adjust the fuel over the WOT range and varying boost pressures we will be using.

we will add another pump to supply this fuel rail with another separate FP regulator to facilitate tuning. we may need individual EGT probes in the headers to measure mixture and save the engine in case the initial tuning is awry. the FAST computer still looks like the front runner, although the electromotive guys are right here local in manassas and I may give them a shot at the project too.

any info on pipe benders??? I have experience with few, maybe Brian A's guy could lend a hand. we will "mockup" the pipes and then send them off to be made up.

thanks everyone for your thoughts.

8388

ADDING 8 additional injectors somewhere in the plenum. this will require a taller hood and some ugly external fuel rails, but it will be ez to service. it will also require some angled "bungs" to get the targeting at the primary ports worked out. with the engine on boost, the fuel shouldn't puddle up too bad as long as they are aimed ok. not sure if we could just go with bigger factory injectors and reprogram the factory ecm, that would certainly be the least expensive option, but the wide band O2 support is pretty critical to help the computer adjust the fuel over the WOT range and varying boost pressures we will be using.
[/QUOTE]

Fuel delivery is not the tuff part, you can actually keep this fairly simple by doing the same as Callaway did with their TT cars. Just add another 2 or 3 large injectors right infront of the throttle body, all that would be needed is a micro-fueler thats activates under boost. (from what I understand alot of Buick guys used a similar setup, in order to correct fuel requirements)This way the car wiil run and drive normal when not under boost. The big issues are the correct location and plumbing of all the hardware in order to maintain a high level of reliability which has to be at the top of the list.

Tyler Townsley

There are people with a storehouse of information an LT 5 who are do not troll here. Here is a plenum you can learn things from it supports 850-950 hp and uses two injectors and a Motec ecm setup. These are large images but I left them that way so you can download them and look at them in a graphics program for detail.
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/clubs/...ne_motor_1.jpg http://temp.corvetteforum.net/clubs/...ne_motor_2.jpg

I would wait until after BG as you can ask Lane just what he did and he is not constrained by the same forces that LPE people are. He also has a 650-750 NA 368 ci long block for sale that he used before the 431 build, might be cheaper to start with that and a list of what had been done to rather than start from scratch. Remember there are at least 2 GM twin turbos out there and one is in the NCM that could be looked at for details. I believe that some of the OM people had some hand in that Did not the Cerv 3 have a TT LT 5?

Tyler

Rkreigh

thanks tyler. cerv did have a 650 HP tune twin turbo lt5. I believe Jeoff Jeal and Grahm still have the ECM code for that. not sure if they will sell it or not. the MOTEC is the high end computer that lots of racers use. my only concern is giving up the ECM function for the rest of the car. I think the dash and maybe the ac would be impacted. and alot of the aftermarket stuff doesn't yet have knock retard sensors which are pretty essential. as you can tell, we are just kicking around ideas. I like the idea of the injectors in the "air horn", but we learned from turbo buick experience that getting the injectors targeted properly is pretty essential to good fuel distribution. the lt5 intake wasn't designed to carry fuel and the fuel can drop out of suspension going around the turns. a custom intake with "log tubes" like lotus uses with a balance tube would probably work better than the stock intake. fabricating this won't be cheap but we are more concerned about reliability and performance than cost.

I think the motec supports the most "plot points" and can controll multiple injectors to allow the best control over fuel/spark. we might just jumper the factory injector wires and let the aftermarket computer do the fuel so the bigger injectors can be put in the stock position for optimal fuel. I think the secondary plates will be removed too since the turbos will provide all the torque we can use!!! a bit of lag will actually help the car hook better.

FYI, I spoke with lane last year aat BG. he uses an electromotive TC II that runs both injectors all the time. he has a great race car for sale and if I had any brains (and more money) I would just buy his rig and call it a day!!!

lane is truely an innovator that went down the path less traveled. that is what we are going to do as well.

thanks again for keeping the dream alive. :cheers: