Should The Vacum Line coming from the Secondary MAP Sensor Have Vacum--if so,
04-19-2008, 07:23 PM
#1
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Should The Vacum Line coming from the Secondary MAP Sensor Have Vacum--if so,
No help yet...
Oh well, this is the dumbest **** ever.
All I did was unplugg the vacuum line and connector from the secondary vacuum sensor under the ECM, remove the ECM and its holding tray with vacuum sensor attached out of the wya so I could change my master cylinder. I waas very careful and put everything back. Drove the car, and now with the key on, the thing hesitates and at full throttle it detonates all over the place before falling on its face...turn the key off and it is fine. SO, obviously something wrong with the secondary system. Pump burps once as it should. Everything is plugged in. Car has driven like a champ...I pull in the shop to do the work, and BAM, bend over. There is no way in hell that this is happening by chance....something I did caused this...However, the only thing NON BRAKE RELATED that I touched was that vacuum attachment and connector under the ECM.
Where can I get a vacuum secodary sensor? Autozone? It looks almost just like the MAP sensor...are they the same unit? HAs this happened to anyone before? I have checked everything I touched. I did not touch ANYTHING nor pull on any of the lines outside of the small area areound the Master Cylinder.
MORNING UPDATE
Ok, I will pull the codes in an hour or so. No SES light occured, but I think it should still throw codes right?
I want to be clear, I will need alot of help on this as I am too far away from the known ZR-1 experts...this is WAY above my knowledge base and I have limited space and tools to work on this problem. I have a VERY competent mechanic just down the road with a shop with the latest tools and computers blah blah blah...I will bring the car to him only when I am sure what may be wrong.
I also want to be clear that I am convinced that I did something yesterday to cause this. I drove the car 80 miles...pulled it into my BIL's shop...the ONLY thing not brake related I touched was unplugging the Secondary Vacuum Sensor electrical connection and vacuum line that plugs into it....and moved the ECM to the side VERY CAREFUL with no pulling etc..in reading the service manual, it says that the sensor can cause the problem I am having. Now, logic dictates that this sensor HAS to be the problem, why would I look at injectors and fuel pumps without addressing the parts I actually touched?
Please keep this thread in mind and feel free to PM me or PM me for my cell number for help...I will post any codes I get in a little bit
Oh well, this is the dumbest **** ever.
All I did was unplugg the vacuum line and connector from the secondary vacuum sensor under the ECM, remove the ECM and its holding tray with vacuum sensor attached out of the wya so I could change my master cylinder. I waas very careful and put everything back. Drove the car, and now with the key on, the thing hesitates and at full throttle it detonates all over the place before falling on its face...turn the key off and it is fine. SO, obviously something wrong with the secondary system. Pump burps once as it should. Everything is plugged in. Car has driven like a champ...I pull in the shop to do the work, and BAM, bend over. There is no way in hell that this is happening by chance....something I did caused this...However, the only thing NON BRAKE RELATED that I touched was that vacuum attachment and connector under the ECM.
Where can I get a vacuum secodary sensor? Autozone? It looks almost just like the MAP sensor...are they the same unit? HAs this happened to anyone before? I have checked everything I touched. I did not touch ANYTHING nor pull on any of the lines outside of the small area areound the Master Cylinder.
MORNING UPDATE
Ok, I will pull the codes in an hour or so. No SES light occured, but I think it should still throw codes right?
I want to be clear, I will need alot of help on this as I am too far away from the known ZR-1 experts...this is WAY above my knowledge base and I have limited space and tools to work on this problem. I have a VERY competent mechanic just down the road with a shop with the latest tools and computers blah blah blah...I will bring the car to him only when I am sure what may be wrong.
I also want to be clear that I am convinced that I did something yesterday to cause this. I drove the car 80 miles...pulled it into my BIL's shop...the ONLY thing not brake related I touched was unplugging the Secondary Vacuum Sensor electrical connection and vacuum line that plugs into it....and moved the ECM to the side VERY CAREFUL with no pulling etc..in reading the service manual, it says that the sensor can cause the problem I am having. Now, logic dictates that this sensor HAS to be the problem, why would I look at injectors and fuel pumps without addressing the parts I actually touched?
Please keep this thread in mind and feel free to PM me or PM me for my cell number for help...I will post any codes I get in a little bit
Last edited by LowFlight; 04-20-2008 at 03:22 PM.
04-19-2008, 10:11 PM
#3
Racer
Member Since: Oct 2007
Location: mammoth lakes ca
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
could you have kinked the plastic line or i would ck the connection and make sure you got it all the way on or didnt **** it somehow and bend one of the pins on the sensor
04-19-2008, 10:26 PM
#4
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Where can I get one?
04-19-2008, 11:32 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
Did you unplug the ECM to move it? You could check for bent pins, though it sounds like a secondary issue.
As to whether it should have vacuum, only when the secondaries are commanded open. You could check that the sensor holds a vacuum though, and probably even check the voltage change on it when applying and removing vacuum. Or just replace the thing.
As to whether it should have vacuum, only when the secondaries are commanded open. You could check that the sensor holds a vacuum though, and probably even check the voltage change on it when applying and removing vacuum. Or just replace the thing.
04-19-2008, 11:39 PM
#7
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Did you unplug the ECM to move it? You could check for bent pins, though it sounds like a secondary issue.
As to whether it should have vacuum, only when the secondaries are commanded open. You could check that the sensor holds a vacuum though, and probably even check the voltage change on it when applying and removing vacuum. Or just replace the thing.
As to whether it should have vacuum, only when the secondaries are commanded open. You could check that the sensor holds a vacuum though, and probably even check the voltage change on it when applying and removing vacuum. Or just replace the thing.
I did some searches and found that it is open to the atmosphere. I have not pulled codes and don't have an SES, but the facts are: I unplugged this sensor, after plugging it back in...I get the symptoms related to its failure (the car falls on its face the higher RPMS you go with the key ON). The air pump is fine...IT burps once and does not again...with the key off, the car runs great, I did not disconnect anything from the ECM. It has to be the VAcuum Sensor under the ECM. It is the only thing I touched today. I want to be clear, the car has been running PERFECT...I pulled it into my BIL's shop....changed the brake MC, put everything back and drove it down the road and this happened. It is the most logical thing to be...too bad the part is $70 from Kurt.
04-20-2008, 03:59 AM
#8
MDP sensor
Harold,
The oldest & original part# was 16054920 (AC/DELCO 213-193) and the 16231141 part# Kurt has posted is the current replacing part#. I would think a jobber could cross one or the other if you wanted to attempt a buy today! It's still an available GM part. I've got a 16054920 in an open box.
-Dave
The oldest & original part# was 16054920 (AC/DELCO 213-193) and the 16231141 part# Kurt has posted is the current replacing part#. I would think a jobber could cross one or the other if you wanted to attempt a buy today! It's still an available GM part. I've got a 16054920 in an open box.
-Dave
04-20-2008, 08:54 AM
#9
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 3,188
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
3 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'19, '21-'22-'23-'24
Minority opinion....
This maybe way out in left field....if the MAP @ the ECM is not the root of the issue.
I would then start diagnostics on the 2* system. My reason is your description of the issue, key on = poor performance; Key off = normal performance, well no miss & all anyway.
I'd start with the pump1 fuse @ start up to verify that pump2 at least works. Depending upon the results of that, I would do a fuel pressure diagnostic by the FSM. I don't know if a 2* pump could get 'weak'?? Check the regulator hose for gas.
If the pumps are in order, my next look would be the 2* injectors. I say this because if the 2* solenoid fails = DTC, if the 2* MAP fails = DTC, If the actuators fail = DTC, usually there are too many things that set DTC's.....except for the injectors. JMHO:o
Tom
I would then start diagnostics on the 2* system. My reason is your description of the issue, key on = poor performance; Key off = normal performance, well no miss & all anyway.
I'd start with the pump1 fuse @ start up to verify that pump2 at least works. Depending upon the results of that, I would do a fuel pressure diagnostic by the FSM. I don't know if a 2* pump could get 'weak'?? Check the regulator hose for gas.
If the pumps are in order, my next look would be the 2* injectors. I say this because if the 2* solenoid fails = DTC, if the 2* MAP fails = DTC, If the actuators fail = DTC, usually there are too many things that set DTC's.....except for the injectors. JMHO:o
Tom
04-20-2008, 09:32 AM
#11
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 3,188
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
3 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'19, '21-'22-'23-'24
Harold, you may not have caused this at all. Yes it is possible, as the other guys have suggested...ya know bent pins in a connector, et al.
But, consider this fwiw.....electrical failures, like a 2* pump or solenoid or the electrical side of a MAP...or injector coils...can fail electrically at any time. You usually can't see an electrical failure comming, except in the case of an alternator or battery...you can measure their performance and surmise an impending regulator failure or weak acid, for example.
Be calm and do this methodically using the FSM as a guide. Yes, you can have a DTC without a SES light.....I think it's referred to as a "transient" or "soft code" because usually it is intermittant in nature. I think that those type of codes are stored in the the memory as "H" codes = a History code....but I'm not 100% on that.
Tom
But, consider this fwiw.....electrical failures, like a 2* pump or solenoid or the electrical side of a MAP...or injector coils...can fail electrically at any time. You usually can't see an electrical failure comming, except in the case of an alternator or battery...you can measure their performance and surmise an impending regulator failure or weak acid, for example.
Be calm and do this methodically using the FSM as a guide. Yes, you can have a DTC without a SES light.....I think it's referred to as a "transient" or "soft code" because usually it is intermittant in nature. I think that those type of codes are stored in the the memory as "H" codes = a History code....but I'm not 100% on that.
Tom
04-20-2008, 09:37 AM
#12
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I did disconnect the battery yesterday after the problem first occurred...but I drove the 80 miles back last night...I just checked for codes and it did nothing but flash the code 12...so no codes have been set unless there is another way to check history?
04-20-2008, 09:49 AM
#13
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 3,188
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
3 Posts
St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'19, '21-'22-'23-'24
The H codes are stored in the CCM...usually, that is my understanding from my jumper kit I bought from Gordon.
It is my understanding that something like a MAP will give feedback to the ECM so if it breaks it sets a code. An injector coil that has shorted will not set a code because one of the ways the ECM knows an injector is working is via the O2 feed back, using that info the ECM adjusts fuel quantity to get to an ideal air fuel ratio. The injector really has no two way communication directly to the ECM, it's just an "execute command" type of communication....injector on & for how long.
Tom
04-20-2008, 09:57 AM
#14
Team Owner
Is there a request for your kidney in there too? HOLY SH%$^%T!!!!
The EXACT same part has been used on so many GM vehicles it is ridculous. I had one crap out on my 90 Z, so I pulled one off my 86 Pontiac 6000 with the in-line 4 cyl. engine - works perfectly. Or buy one from autozone for about $8.
BTW - you likely didn't plug in the connector all the way. Odd that you have no code though. Is the vacuum line plugged in too? My advice is the recheck all your connections again - something isn't up to snuff.
04-20-2008, 11:12 AM
#15
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Is there a request for your kidney in there too? HOLY SH%$^%T!!!!
The EXACT same part has been used on so many GM vehicles it is ridculous. I had one crap out on my 90 Z, so I pulled one off my 86 Pontiac 6000 with the in-line 4 cyl. engine - works perfectly. Or buy one from autozone for about $8.
BTW - you likely didn't plug in the connector all the way. Odd that you have no code though. Is the vacuum line plugged in too? My advice is the recheck all your connections again - something isn't up to snuff.
The EXACT same part has been used on so many GM vehicles it is ridculous. I had one crap out on my 90 Z, so I pulled one off my 86 Pontiac 6000 with the in-line 4 cyl. engine - works perfectly. Or buy one from autozone for about $8.
BTW - you likely didn't plug in the connector all the way. Odd that you have no code though. Is the vacuum line plugged in too? My advice is the recheck all your connections again - something isn't up to snuff.
anyone know the part number for autozone etc???
04-20-2008, 11:17 AM
#16
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Is there a request for your kidney in there too? HOLY SH%$^%T!!!!
The EXACT same part has been used on so many GM vehicles it is ridculous. I had one crap out on my 90 Z, so I pulled one off my 86 Pontiac 6000 with the in-line 4 cyl. engine - works perfectly. Or buy one from autozone for about $8.
BTW - you likely didn't plug in the connector all the way. Odd that you have no code though. Is the vacuum line plugged in too? My advice is the recheck all your connections again - something isn't up to snuff.
The EXACT same part has been used on so many GM vehicles it is ridculous. I had one crap out on my 90 Z, so I pulled one off my 86 Pontiac 6000 with the in-line 4 cyl. engine - works perfectly. Or buy one from autozone for about $8.
BTW - you likely didn't plug in the connector all the way. Odd that you have no code though. Is the vacuum line plugged in too? My advice is the recheck all your connections again - something isn't up to snuff.
I checked the connections and they are tight. I mean, it is just two connections. What is this part actually called. The manual calls it a Secondary Vacuum Sensor
04-20-2008, 11:40 AM
#17
Use the information I posted and call the Autozone's or other auto part suppliers that might be open on Sundays. That's what I meant by "jobber"! Correct terminology I expect is Manifold Differential Pressure sensor.
I changed the 16054920 to a Stardard Parts AS10 and sent you the link to the results. There are other #'s that do the same but at different Manifold Pressures. They're used for turbo tuning etc. You will see in the link I sent you how it's indexed on the three pin connector. That's the important consideration with any interchange that a parts house could supply you.
I changed the 16054920 to a Stardard Parts AS10 and sent you the link to the results. There are other #'s that do the same but at different Manifold Pressures. They're used for turbo tuning etc. You will see in the link I sent you how it's indexed on the three pin connector. That's the important consideration with any interchange that a parts house could supply you.
Last edited by WVZR-1; 04-20-2008 at 12:02 PM.
04-20-2008, 12:33 PM
#19
Brand and part #
What brand and part # were you sold? I sent you a link with the indexing and and image of the part.
You could have ended up with a MAP sensor with different values established internally and given you the code 61. See the post edit I made previously. You likely have confirmed the problem since it's operating differently but maybe with an incorrect part!
You could have ended up with a MAP sensor with different values established internally and given you the code 61. See the post edit I made previously. You likely have confirmed the problem since it's operating differently but maybe with an incorrect part!
04-20-2008, 12:38 PM
#20
Team Owner
Thread Starter
What brand and part # were you sold? I sent you a link with the indexing and and image of the part.
You could have ended up with a MAP sensor with different values established internally and given you the code 61. See the post edit I made previously. You likely have confirmed the problem since it's operating differently but maybe with an incorrect part!
You could have ended up with a MAP sensor with different values established internally and given you the code 61. See the post edit I made previously. You likely have confirmed the problem since it's operating differently but maybe with an incorrect part!
J ENG CODE? Yes
J ENG CODE, P ENG CODE? Don't know
CONVERTIBLE? No
P ENG CODE? No
Clear Answers or Change Vehicle Store: 6155 GOODMAN ROAD
OLIVE BRANCH, MS 38654
(662) 890-0909
Change Store Map and Hours
Replacement Category: Manifold Pressure Sensor
Caution! Buying an incorrect part or failing to install the right part correctly can cause vehicle damage or bodily harm. Please click here and read what you must do to help ensure this does not happen.
Back Different Search Sort Results By: Price Availability Manufacturer Item Type
We Found the Following for You Items This Page: 6 Page: 1 of 1
BWD AUTOMOTIVE - Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
Item No: EC1602
$53.99 Each
1 Per Vehicle
Limited lifetime warranty
8933000273, 16137039, 8-16158-055-0, 81588, 33000153, 21020103