Alternators--ZZZzzapp
08-09-2004, 04:50 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
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Location: levittown pa. usa Even a bad day with my `Vette, is better than a good day at work
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St. Jude Donor '10
Alternators--ZZZzzapp
Well I fried my fairly new replacement alternator, evidently by charging the battery with the cables connected. ( saw somewhere in one of my three service manuals that this is a 
). Anyway; I remember reading here on the forum that someone bought an alt., & paid something like $150.00 for it, & someone else said that that was cheap. I was checking prices in my are for rebuilts for my `87, & they ranged anywhere from $79.00-$135.00 w/exchange. Most had a 1yr warranty. I finally settled on getting one from National Auto stores, because it was only $89.00 w/exchange, but the best part is that it comes with a lifetime warranty. Just thought I`d pass it on. 
Ken
). Anyway; I remember reading here on the forum that someone bought an alt., & paid something like $150.00 for it, & someone else said that that was cheap. I was checking prices in my are for rebuilts for my `87, & they ranged anywhere from $79.00-$135.00 w/exchange. Most had a 1yr warranty. I finally settled on getting one from National Auto stores, because it was only $89.00 w/exchange, but the best part is that it comes with a lifetime warranty. Just thought I`d pass it on. Ken
08-09-2004, 05:01 PM
#2
Drifting
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I don't know how it is by you, but I only go to the dealer for my alt. I got so many "Lifetime Warranty" alts. Yea it has a lifetime warranty, but that doesnt help when you're stranded.
They might as weel crap in a box and put a lifetime warranty, at least I know upfront what I'm getting.
Sorry sore spot with me
ok feel better
08-09-2004, 06:38 PM
#3
Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '10
The last one came from my local dealer. I have a current drain somewhere, & they were just hanging parts on the car in my opinion, instead of finding the real problem, wich I still have. That was over $200.00 ago. I woulden`t go back to this particular dealer for any thing.
My Ken 
My
Ken
08-09-2004, 08:46 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
I quit counting after the first dozen, but the GM's have always lasted longer with my current one going on 4 years. I have been in and out of NAPA twice in same day with some of their lifetime alternators and with GM, you get a year, so if you're within that time, take it back. For what it's worth, Vette or Corvette Fever took apart a couple of the aftermarket remans and compared them to the GM reman back in '91 or '92 (it was a big problem then too) and found the GM had better internals. As I remember, the Bosch was the worse. Also thought someone posted that Autozone no longer offered a lifetime for the C4 (or maybe any GM for that matter).
08-09-2004, 09:02 PM
#5
Im just curious... what are you guys running off your cars that you tear through alternators like that? Granted I haven't owned my vette for very long, maybe they're really hard on em... But i've had my daily driver going on 5 years now (about 40,000 miles) with no alternator changes... My dad has a 48 Oldsmobile, he's owned that since 75... has never changed the generator, just kept it oiled.
08-09-2004, 09:41 PM
#6
Le Mans Master
No expert, but here's my record with GM: '73 GTO, 157,000 miles - 6 (actually I rebuilt it 6 times); '95 Gran Prix, 60,000 miles - 3; '94 Sonoma, 200,000 miles - 4; '97 S-10; 90,000 miles - 2; and the Vette, 58,000 miles - more than 12.
GM alternators are a frequent complaint on NHTSA hotline or complaint list (but unless the car rolls over, it's hard to get their attention). When Car & Driver was testing an early '97 C5, they got stranded in Georgia when the alternator crapped out and no replacements were available. The Vette's problems (well at least for the early C4's) seem to be well documented and even Gordon Killebrew mentions it in his Dash Repair manual. In the early '90's, Corvette Fever recommended that you carry a spare or upgrade it to a higher output model. 3 of the replacements on my Vette were under the factory warranty.
The problem seems to be the proximity of the exhaust header and an electrical system that can easily overwhelm the output of the alternator, especially with all of the accessories on at extended idle. From everything I've read, this creates extra heat and that eventually kills it. Compacted, FWD's seem to suffer the same fate, with the GM 6 banger putting the alternator on the firewall side. Note that Ford (and I believe Chrysler too), at least have it on the radiator side where it can get a better shot at cooler air.
I've always thought, that as a group, it would make a great class action suit. Even if the class was limited to maybe 100,000 C4 Vette owners, a $250 replacement cost should get the average civil atty drooling. In fact there was an attorney on the Forum and I suggested this to him after he experienced the same fate many of us have had with the Vette alternator - unfortunately, he only practiced criminal law and I haven't seen him since, so he may have given up and sold the Vette.
GM alternators are a frequent complaint on NHTSA hotline or complaint list (but unless the car rolls over, it's hard to get their attention). When Car & Driver was testing an early '97 C5, they got stranded in Georgia when the alternator crapped out and no replacements were available. The Vette's problems (well at least for the early C4's) seem to be well documented and even Gordon Killebrew mentions it in his Dash Repair manual. In the early '90's, Corvette Fever recommended that you carry a spare or upgrade it to a higher output model. 3 of the replacements on my Vette were under the factory warranty.
The problem seems to be the proximity of the exhaust header and an electrical system that can easily overwhelm the output of the alternator, especially with all of the accessories on at extended idle. From everything I've read, this creates extra heat and that eventually kills it. Compacted, FWD's seem to suffer the same fate, with the GM 6 banger putting the alternator on the firewall side. Note that Ford (and I believe Chrysler too), at least have it on the radiator side where it can get a better shot at cooler air.
I've always thought, that as a group, it would make a great class action suit. Even if the class was limited to maybe 100,000 C4 Vette owners, a $250 replacement cost should get the average civil atty drooling. In fact there was an attorney on the Forum and I suggested this to him after he experienced the same fate many of us have had with the Vette alternator - unfortunately, he only practiced criminal law and I haven't seen him since, so he may have given up and sold the Vette.
08-09-2004, 11:56 PM
#7
Pro
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I don't know about my Vette but all my other cars have done well on alternators. I have not had to replace an alternator more then once on any of them other then one of them that I got wet and it shorted out. The Vette I have only had for a few months and the alternator was bad when I bought it. Couldn't complain since I only paid $1000 for the car.
08-10-2004, 12:24 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
Here's GM's latest Bulletin on their alternators. From my perspective, having lived in 3 major metropolitan areas where long and slow commutes are typical, an alternator that isn't charging the battery means you're running on reserve. After a period of time, the alternater becomes overtaxed and dies an early death. As far as I know Part 2, at the bottom of this TSB isn't a C4 design (and only driving your car to church on Sunday isn't "abnormal usage" unless you're making a claim under warranty of course)
Charging System - Low Voltage Display ON/Dim Lights
File In Section: 06 - Engine/Propulsion System
Bulletin No.: 02-06-03-008
Date: August, 2002
INFORMATION
Subject:
Low Voltage Display on IP Gauge, Lights Dim at Stop Lights, Battery Discharged, No Start, Slow Cranking, Dim Lights at Idle, Low Generator Output
Models:
1990-2003 Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003 HUMMER H2
This bulletin is being revised to update the model years and to update text. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 43-64-07A (Section 06 - Engine).
Any vehicle may have a low voltage display (if equipped with gauges), lights that dim at stop lights, slow cranking, no start, low generator output at idle or dim lights at idle when electrical loads are heavy at idle or under slow driving or infrequent usage conditions. These characteristics may be more noticeable with customer added electrical accessories, or with a discharged battery. These are normal operating characteristics of a vehicle electrical system and no repairs should be attempted unless a proven fault has been diagnosed.
During normal driving conditions, when engine speed is above 1000 RPM, the generator is designed to do two things:
^ Supply the current necessary to operate the vehicle's originally equipped electrical devices (loads).
^ Recharge/ maintain the battery's state of charge.
The following factors may affect generator and battery performance:
^ Non-usage of the vehicle for extended periods of time. The vehicle's computers, clocks and the like will cause the battery state of charge to drop (For example; 30 days in a parking lot and the vehicle may not start because of a dead battery or a vehicle which is driven to church only on Sunday may end up with a discharged battery to the point where the vehicle may not start). This would be considered abnormal usage of the vehicle and the normally expected result for the vehicle battery, generator and electrical systems.
^ At idle, vehicle electrical loads may exceed the low speed current (amperage) output of the generator and when this happens the shortfall comes from the battery. This will result in a drop in the electrical system voltage as the battery delivers the additional electrical current to meet the demand. This is equivalent to the brown outs experienced by homes and businesses when the electrical demand is more than the supply. See Figure 1.
^ Extended periods of engine idling, with high electrical loads, may result in a discharged battery. Attempting to recharge a battery by letting the engine run at idle may not be beneficial unless all electrical loads are turned "OFF".
^ Increased internal generator temperatures from extended idling can also contribute to lower electrical system voltage. As the generator's internal temperature rises, the generator's output capability is reduced due to increased electrical resistance.
Depending on the vehicle application, generator current (amperage) output at engine idle speeds of 600-700 RPM can be as low as 35 percent of the full rated output. With enough electrical loads "ON" it is easy to exceed the generator current (amperage) output when the engine is at an idle of 600-700 RPM. This is a normal condition. The battery supplements for short periods of time. Items that affect the vehicle's electrical system current and voltage at idle are the number of electrical loads being used, including add-on accessories, and extended idle times. When the vehicle speed is above approximately 24 km/h (15 mph), the engine/generator RPM is high enough and the generator current (amperage ) output is sufficient to supply the current (amperage) requirements of the vehicle as originally equipped and recharge the battery.
Dimming lights at idle may be considered normal for two reasons:
1. As the engine/generator speed changes, so will the current (amperage) output of the generator. As a vehicle slows, engine/generator RPM slows, and the current (amperage) output of the generator may not be sufficient to supply the loads, the vehicle system voltage will drop and the lights will dim. Dimming of the lights is an indication that current is being pulled from the battery. If the battery is in a low state-of-charge (discharged condition), the driver will notice a more pronounced dimming than a vehicle with a fully charged battery.
2. When high current loads (blower, rear defogger, headlamps, cooling fan, heated seats, power seats, electric "AIR" pump, or power windows) are operating or cycled "ON", the generator's voltage regulator can delay the rise in output. This effect, usually at lower engine speeds, can take up to ten seconds to ramp up the generator output. This is done to avoid loading the engine severely. To increase current (amperage) output, additional torque is consumed by the generator. The engine computer (PCM) will ramp up engine/generator speed in small steps so engine speed variations are not noticeable to the driver.
Charging System - Low Voltage Display ON/Dim Lights
File In Section: 06 - Engine/Propulsion System
Bulletin No.: 02-06-03-008
Date: August, 2002
INFORMATION
Subject:
Low Voltage Display on IP Gauge, Lights Dim at Stop Lights, Battery Discharged, No Start, Slow Cranking, Dim Lights at Idle, Low Generator Output
Models:
1990-2003 Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003 HUMMER H2
This bulletin is being revised to update the model years and to update text. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 43-64-07A (Section 06 - Engine).
Any vehicle may have a low voltage display (if equipped with gauges), lights that dim at stop lights, slow cranking, no start, low generator output at idle or dim lights at idle when electrical loads are heavy at idle or under slow driving or infrequent usage conditions. These characteristics may be more noticeable with customer added electrical accessories, or with a discharged battery. These are normal operating characteristics of a vehicle electrical system and no repairs should be attempted unless a proven fault has been diagnosed.
During normal driving conditions, when engine speed is above 1000 RPM, the generator is designed to do two things:
^ Supply the current necessary to operate the vehicle's originally equipped electrical devices (loads).
^ Recharge/ maintain the battery's state of charge.
The following factors may affect generator and battery performance:
^ Non-usage of the vehicle for extended periods of time. The vehicle's computers, clocks and the like will cause the battery state of charge to drop (For example; 30 days in a parking lot and the vehicle may not start because of a dead battery or a vehicle which is driven to church only on Sunday may end up with a discharged battery to the point where the vehicle may not start). This would be considered abnormal usage of the vehicle and the normally expected result for the vehicle battery, generator and electrical systems.
^ At idle, vehicle electrical loads may exceed the low speed current (amperage) output of the generator and when this happens the shortfall comes from the battery. This will result in a drop in the electrical system voltage as the battery delivers the additional electrical current to meet the demand. This is equivalent to the brown outs experienced by homes and businesses when the electrical demand is more than the supply. See Figure 1.
^ Extended periods of engine idling, with high electrical loads, may result in a discharged battery. Attempting to recharge a battery by letting the engine run at idle may not be beneficial unless all electrical loads are turned "OFF".
^ Increased internal generator temperatures from extended idling can also contribute to lower electrical system voltage. As the generator's internal temperature rises, the generator's output capability is reduced due to increased electrical resistance.
Depending on the vehicle application, generator current (amperage) output at engine idle speeds of 600-700 RPM can be as low as 35 percent of the full rated output. With enough electrical loads "ON" it is easy to exceed the generator current (amperage) output when the engine is at an idle of 600-700 RPM. This is a normal condition. The battery supplements for short periods of time. Items that affect the vehicle's electrical system current and voltage at idle are the number of electrical loads being used, including add-on accessories, and extended idle times. When the vehicle speed is above approximately 24 km/h (15 mph), the engine/generator RPM is high enough and the generator current (amperage ) output is sufficient to supply the current (amperage) requirements of the vehicle as originally equipped and recharge the battery.
Dimming lights at idle may be considered normal for two reasons:
1. As the engine/generator speed changes, so will the current (amperage) output of the generator. As a vehicle slows, engine/generator RPM slows, and the current (amperage) output of the generator may not be sufficient to supply the loads, the vehicle system voltage will drop and the lights will dim. Dimming of the lights is an indication that current is being pulled from the battery. If the battery is in a low state-of-charge (discharged condition), the driver will notice a more pronounced dimming than a vehicle with a fully charged battery.
2. When high current loads (blower, rear defogger, headlamps, cooling fan, heated seats, power seats, electric "AIR" pump, or power windows) are operating or cycled "ON", the generator's voltage regulator can delay the rise in output. This effect, usually at lower engine speeds, can take up to ten seconds to ramp up the generator output. This is done to avoid loading the engine severely. To increase current (amperage) output, additional torque is consumed by the generator. The engine computer (PCM) will ramp up engine/generator speed in small steps so engine speed variations are not noticeable to the driver.
08-10-2004, 12:41 AM
#9
Maybe it is a GM thing... cause all the cars i can think of- some of which i mentioned, minus the olds- and that doesnt really count- are non gm's. My dad's truck is close to 100K miles with the original alternator (ford). Chevy should rethink something if theirs are burning up so much.
08-10-2004, 01:14 AM
#10
In particular, the CS130 alternator is very poorly designed. What kills them, (aside from using it to charge a darn near dead battery) is heat. The rectifier circuit board can't take it and they puke. Standard equipment!
There are a couple of options that I have seen on the Forum over the years, and that's a conversion to a CS144 or in some cases a CS145. The 144 is for a ZR1. Those things are run in the valley of the engine, so they are nowhere near any free flowing air. Apparently, the General made the circuit boards stout.
FYI, the old GM "1 wire" alts were very good and lasted a long time...they were a different animal.
There are a couple of options that I have seen on the Forum over the years, and that's a conversion to a CS144 or in some cases a CS145. The 144 is for a ZR1. Those things are run in the valley of the engine, so they are nowhere near any free flowing air. Apparently, the General made the circuit boards stout.
FYI, the old GM "1 wire" alts were very good and lasted a long time...they were a different animal.
