Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down?
12-06-2003, 05:21 AM
#21
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (TreyZ28)
With a low gear and high stall, you are trying to go zero to a higher speed instantiously than with steep gears and the same stall.
think about it;
at 3400 rpms, whos MPH is higher? the guy with 3.07s or 3.90s :)
It puts a lot less stress on everythig to have shorter gears as well
You aren't trying to go faster instantly but are trying to get the motor into it's peak faster. Putting a lower number (3.07 vs 3.73) gear ratio in a car makes a motor work harder to move said vehicle thus less tire spin. Combine that tc and lower numbered gear ratio together and you have a very nice combo. Once you leave the line, hook and shift into second gear who cares what stall you have at this point of the game it really doesn't matter. Think about it.
12-06-2003, 07:44 AM
#22
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jan 2002
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (hippy)
Hippie,
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 10:16 AM
#23
Drifting
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (TreyZ28)
Okay, let me put in my .02. I've got a '95 with stock 3.07 rear and a 2800 stall TC. Street tires too. On launch I can not hook up. I sit and spin. The only way I do not spin is if I just let it start to roll and then nail the gas. I am green at doing the quarter mile but that's the way it is.
12-06-2003, 11:00 AM
#24
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (TreyZ28)
Hippie,
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 7:47 AM 12/6/2003]
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 7:47 AM 12/6/2003]
How am I mistaken? At which post did I say that a higher stall doesn't put a car into it's powerband faster.
"You aren't trying to go faster instantly but are trying to get the motor into it's peak faster. " That was a quote of mine. Where in that quote am I mistaken? So by your logic a 410 gear will hook easier than a 307 gear because you can only go about 75% as fast? Are you kidding me? By that logic first gear on every car should hook better than OD gear. Last I remember my car don't spin the tires in OD. Obviously an unlocked tc builds more heat but driving thru the city like a civilized human being I really don't think you are going to be tearing up trannys left and right. Also fuel mileage, who cares, if gas is a concern in the city going from 15 to 13 I guess you better be driving a metro. When my foot isn't planted in the accelerator pedal I can't tell there is a higher stall tc in my car.
Also what shall I reconsider? How are you launching at a higher mph? Just because a tc has a 3000 stall doesn't mean it WILL NOT start moving the car at 3000. Have you ever drivin a car with a stall, obviously not. Every car launches at zero and accelerates up to a certain speed. The tc is like someone slipping a clutch on a manual. Sure 1st gear in a manual will do say 30 mph at 5000 rpm but slipith el clutcho and the very same 1st gear no longer does 30. Follow thin logic? I am not sure where you derived your math from but please go back and have someone else check it.
To get back to the post. Currently I am running a 2500 stall in my car with a 3.07, it is a L98. For street driving it is an excellent stall. If I ever stick money into another L98 the first 2 mods in this order will be stall and Long tube headers but that is just me. I still think that the stall will bang for buck you the best as our stock stalls leave a lot to be desired.
The more I read your post the more I realize you should just delete it, as you have about one small paragraph that actually makes sense.
[Modified by hippy, 10:11 AM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 12:07 PM
#25
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,159
Likes: 0
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (hippy)
Hippie,
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 7:47 AM 12/6/2003]
This post defies me.
How am I mistaken? At which post did I say that a higher stall doesn't put a car into it's powerband faster.
"You aren't trying to go faster instantly but are trying to get the motor into it's peak faster. " That was a quote of mine. Where in that quote am I mistaken? So by your logic a 410 gear will hook easier than a 307 gear because you can only go about 75% as fast? Are you kidding me? By that logic first gear on every car should hook better than OD gear. Last I remember my car don't spin the tires in OD.
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 7:47 AM 12/6/2003]
This post defies me.
How am I mistaken? At which post did I say that a higher stall doesn't put a car into it's powerband faster.
"You aren't trying to go faster instantly but are trying to get the motor into it's peak faster. " That was a quote of mine. Where in that quote am I mistaken? So by your logic a 410 gear will hook easier than a 307 gear because you can only go about 75% as fast? Are you kidding me? By that logic first gear on every car should hook better than OD gear. Last I remember my car don't spin the tires in OD.
Obviously an unlocked tc builds more heat but driving thru the city like a civilized human being I really don't think you are going to be tearing up trannys left and right. Also fuel mileage, who cares, if gas is a concern in the city going from 15 to 13 I guess you better be driving a metro. When my foot isn't planted in the accelerator pedal I can't tell there is a higher stall tc in my car.
(from your previous post) lock up tc isn't going to hurt tranny life or mpg.
It appears your "hypocracy knows no bounds."
Also what shall I reconsider? How are you launching at a higher mph? Just because a tc has a 3000 stall doesn't mean it WILL NOT start moving the car at 3000.
mph @:
X rpm with 3.07 gears > X rpm with 4.10 gears.
(X is contant, the same, rpm doesn't change)
Have you ever drivin a car with a stall, obviously not.
Every car launches at zero and accelerates up to a certain speed. The tc is like someone slipping a clutch on a manual.
Sure 1st gear in a manual will do say 30 mph at 5000 rpm but slipith el clutcho and the very same 1st gear no longer does 30. Follow thin logic? I am not sure where you derived your math from but please go back and have someone else check it.
To get back to the post. Currently I am running a 2500 stall in my car with a 3.07, it is a L98. For street driving it is an excellent stall. If I ever stick money into another L98 the first 2 mods in this order will be stall and Long tube headers but that is just me. I still think that the stall will bang for buck you the best as our stock stalls leave a lot to be desired.
The more I read your post the more I realize you should just delete it, as you have about one small paragraph that actually makes sense.
[Modified by hippy, 10:11 AM 12/6/2003]
To get back to the post. Currently I am running a 2500 stall in my car with a 3.07, it is a L98. For street driving it is an excellent stall. If I ever stick money into another L98 the first 2 mods in this order will be stall and Long tube headers but that is just me. I still think that the stall will bang for buck you the best as our stock stalls leave a lot to be desired.
The more I read your post the more I realize you should just delete it, as you have about one small paragraph that actually makes sense.
[Modified by hippy, 10:11 AM 12/6/2003]
2nd: :chill:
3rd: you dont seem to understand what I am saying, or you dont want to understand. A high stall and a shallow gear are a very bad combination.
my math? http://www.f-body.org/gears .
I cant slip the clutch in my automatic.
as far as what I think you were saying with the flash/stall speed.
without load (ie powerbraking/tq braking) a 3400 wont stall to 3400. With load, it should stall that high. At the drag strip it will be under load and flash right to the stall speed. so at 3400 rpms, you release the brake and bam, your tires are going to 34mph nearly instantly.
I think I explained it very clearly. Please re-read it.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 12:09 PM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 03:17 PM
#26
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (TreyZ28)
Hippie,
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 7:47 AM 12/6/2003]
This post defies me.
How am I mistaken? At which post did I say that a higher stall doesn't put a car into it's powerband faster.
"You aren't trying to go faster instantly but are trying to get the motor into it's peak faster. " That was a quote of mine. Where in that quote am I mistaken? So by your logic a 410 gear will hook easier than a 307 gear because you can only go about 75% as fast? Are you kidding me? By that logic first gear on every car should hook better than OD gear. Last I remember my car don't spin the tires in OD.
Obviously an unlocked tc builds more heat but driving thru the city like a civilized human being I really don't think you are going to be tearing up trannys left and right. Also fuel mileage, who cares, if gas is a concern in the city going from 15 to 13 I guess you better be driving a metro. When my foot isn't planted in the accelerator pedal I can't tell there is a higher stall tc in my car.
(from your previous post) lock up tc isn't going to hurt tranny life or mpg.
It appears your "hypocracy knows no bounds."
Also what shall I reconsider? How are you launching at a higher mph? Just because a tc has a 3000 stall doesn't mean it WILL NOT start moving the car at 3000.
Since the engine and coverter and transmission as constant, and the only variable is the gears if the differential, you will launch at a higher mph.
mph @:
X rpm with 3.07 gears > X rpm with 4.10 gears.
(X is contant, the same, rpm doesn't change)
Have you ever drivin a car with a stall, obviously not. Care in sig was a stalled A4 actually. I dont need to drive a stalled vehicle to use common sense and simple math
Every car launches at zero and accelerates up to a certain speed. The tc is like someone slipping a clutch on a manual.
You just dont get it :( Sure 1st gear in a manual will do say 30 mph at 5000 rpm but slipith el clutcho and the very same 1st gear no longer does 30. Follow thin logic? I am not sure where you derived your math from but please go back and have someone else check it.
To get back to the post. Currently I am running a 2500 stall in my car with a 3.07, it is a L98. For street driving it is an excellent stall. If I ever stick money into another L98 the first 2 mods in this order will be stall and Long tube headers but that is just me. I still think that the stall will bang for buck you the best as our stock stalls leave a lot to be desired.
The more I read your post the more I realize you should just delete it, as you have about one small paragraph that actually makes sense.
[Modified by hippy, 10:11 AM 12/6/2003]
first: :chill:
2nd: :chill:
3rd: you dont seem to understand what I am saying, or you dont want to understand. A high stall and a shallow gear are a very bad combination.
my math? http://www.f-body.org/gears .
I cant slip the clutch in my automatic.
as far as what I think you were saying with the flash/stall speed.
without load (ie powerbraking/tq braking) a 3400 wont stall to 3400. With load, it should stall that high. At the drag strip it will be under load and flash right to the stall speed. so at 3400 rpms, you release the brake and bam, your tires are going to 34mph nearly instantly.
I think I explained it very clearly. Please re-read it.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 12:09 PM 12/6/2003]
I'm afraid you are mistaken. The higher the powerband, the more a vehicle will benifit from a higher stall. The point of stalling higher is launch into your powerband. if your powerband is 4000-6500, you dont want to be fitzing around at 2000rpm- 4000. You want to launch at 4000 and keep moving idealy.
Converter and gears:
I know what you are trying to say, but there is a flaw in launching at high rpms and havin the motor fight a tall gear to not spin.
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
to go 0-24 in a a vette with 3.07 gears, you need a 2600 stall.
Low gears, numerically, and a high stall are a terrible combination. Not only that but it will feel MUCH more jerky on the road. The car is trying to snap to higher mph out of every stop.
a higher stall will hurt your mpg in city driving, or any time you dont have it locked (basically always except highway). How much? Varrys from coverter tp converter depending on many things- mainly stall speed.
It will also cause the transmission to run hotter. Heat kills transmissions. More heat means less lubrication for the gears (thinner fluid) and more importantly, it absolutely kills the clutch packs. Why do you think EVERYONE reccomends getting the biggest damn cooler you can find/fit when you stall a trans higher?
It is also hurting the transmission in that you are "snapping" harder. Anything snappier, with more rpms and all that good stuff hurts trans life. If you dont think launching at a higher RPM and MPH is going to hurt your transmission life, I urge you to reconcider.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 7:47 AM 12/6/2003]
This post defies me.
How am I mistaken? At which post did I say that a higher stall doesn't put a car into it's powerband faster.
"You aren't trying to go faster instantly but are trying to get the motor into it's peak faster. " That was a quote of mine. Where in that quote am I mistaken? So by your logic a 410 gear will hook easier than a 307 gear because you can only go about 75% as fast? Are you kidding me? By that logic first gear on every car should hook better than OD gear. Last I remember my car don't spin the tires in OD.
Obviously an unlocked tc builds more heat but driving thru the city like a civilized human being I really don't think you are going to be tearing up trannys left and right. Also fuel mileage, who cares, if gas is a concern in the city going from 15 to 13 I guess you better be driving a metro. When my foot isn't planted in the accelerator pedal I can't tell there is a higher stall tc in my car.
(from your previous post) lock up tc isn't going to hurt tranny life or mpg.
It appears your "hypocracy knows no bounds."
Also what shall I reconsider? How are you launching at a higher mph? Just because a tc has a 3000 stall doesn't mean it WILL NOT start moving the car at 3000.
Since the engine and coverter and transmission as constant, and the only variable is the gears if the differential, you will launch at a higher mph.
mph @:
X rpm with 3.07 gears > X rpm with 4.10 gears.
(X is contant, the same, rpm doesn't change)
Have you ever drivin a car with a stall, obviously not. Care in sig was a stalled A4 actually. I dont need to drive a stalled vehicle to use common sense and simple math
Every car launches at zero and accelerates up to a certain speed. The tc is like someone slipping a clutch on a manual.
You just dont get it :( Sure 1st gear in a manual will do say 30 mph at 5000 rpm but slipith el clutcho and the very same 1st gear no longer does 30. Follow thin logic? I am not sure where you derived your math from but please go back and have someone else check it.
To get back to the post. Currently I am running a 2500 stall in my car with a 3.07, it is a L98. For street driving it is an excellent stall. If I ever stick money into another L98 the first 2 mods in this order will be stall and Long tube headers but that is just me. I still think that the stall will bang for buck you the best as our stock stalls leave a lot to be desired.
The more I read your post the more I realize you should just delete it, as you have about one small paragraph that actually makes sense.
[Modified by hippy, 10:11 AM 12/6/2003]
first: :chill:
2nd: :chill:
3rd: you dont seem to understand what I am saying, or you dont want to understand. A high stall and a shallow gear are a very bad combination.
my math? http://www.f-body.org/gears .
I cant slip the clutch in my automatic.
as far as what I think you were saying with the flash/stall speed.
without load (ie powerbraking/tq braking) a 3400 wont stall to 3400. With load, it should stall that high. At the drag strip it will be under load and flash right to the stall speed. so at 3400 rpms, you release the brake and bam, your tires are going to 34mph nearly instantly.
I think I explained it very clearly. Please re-read it.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 12:09 PM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 03:33 PM
#27
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
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0 Posts
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (hippy)
You don't get it. Do you think a car tires are going to go 0-34 instantly? How are you launching at a higher mph, you launch at a higher rpm. Obviously you are speaking in babble. I can't believe what I am reading from you. You need to sit down and talk to someone who knows what the hell they are talking about. And NO a higher stall and lower gears are not NECESSARILY a bad combination.
as far as the mph thing, i am sitting :banghead: on my screen and screaming "how can someone be so stupid" at the same time.
Maybe i'm bad at explaining it but it seems crystal clear to me, almost common sense!
at 4000 rpm, what has a higher mph? a car with 3.07 gears or one with 4.11 gears? why is this so difficult to understand.
Your tires cant go 0-34, but they can go 0-24. You want to launch into your powerband so you increase the gears. same rpm, lower moh. that easy.
(i dont know what tires you have, i just used those numbers because it might make it easier for you to understand. I DO know thats easier to launch 0-24 than it ies 0-34)
Why is this so difficult for you to grasp :confused:
maybe a 3rd party could explain this to him?
[Modified by TreyZ28, 3:37 PM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 03:57 PM
#28
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (TreyZ28)
Ever see wrinkle in tires? its trying to go 0-20mph or so almost instantly. The motor is spinning damn fast and the tires are locked. when you release the brakes, the tires want to catch up to the engine, hell they have to. its like stopping the clutch. either the engine has to bog or the tires have to go to xxmph almost instantiously. Wheather they break traction or take the car with it, thats another story.
as far as the mph thing, i am sitting :banghead: on my screen and screaming "how can someone be so stupid" at the same time.
Maybe i'm bad at explaining it but it seems crystal clear to me, almost common sense!
at 4000 rpm, what has a higher mph? a car with 3.07 gears or one with 4.11 gears? why is this so difficult to understand.
Your tires cant go 0-34, but they can go 0-24. You want to launch into your powerband so you increase the gears. same rpm, lower moh. that easy.
(i dont know what tires you have, i just used those numbers because it might make it easier for you to understand. I DO know thats easier to launch 0-24 than it ies 0-34)
Why is this so difficult for you to grasp :confused:
maybe a 3rd party could explain this to him?
[Modified by TreyZ28, 3:37 PM 12/6/2003]
as far as the mph thing, i am sitting :banghead: on my screen and screaming "how can someone be so stupid" at the same time.
Maybe i'm bad at explaining it but it seems crystal clear to me, almost common sense!
at 4000 rpm, what has a higher mph? a car with 3.07 gears or one with 4.11 gears? why is this so difficult to understand.
Your tires cant go 0-34, but they can go 0-24. You want to launch into your powerband so you increase the gears. same rpm, lower moh. that easy.
(i dont know what tires you have, i just used those numbers because it might make it easier for you to understand. I DO know thats easier to launch 0-24 than it ies 0-34)
Why is this so difficult for you to grasp :confused:
maybe a 3rd party could explain this to him?
[Modified by TreyZ28, 3:37 PM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 05:04 PM
#31
Melting Slicks
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (hippy)
Wow 19 and your an engineer. Yesterday I couldn't spell engineer today I is an engineer.
Best Regards,
Trey
Roush Injuhnearing
[Modified by TreyZ28, 5:05 PM 12/6/2003]
[Modified by TreyZ28, 5:29 PM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 06:36 PM
#32
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (BowTieBlood)
Wow, lots of posts!!! OK, lets bring in another factor, which is best "bang for your buck???"
I'm thinking gears, but I have hundreds of people telling me otherwise on another site :lol: So what do y'all think?
[edit] side note: hippy, don't let age fool you, some of us younguns are quite advanced in a variety of areas ;) [edit]
[Modified by BowTieBlood, 5:37 PM 12/6/2003]
I'm thinking gears, but I have hundreds of people telling me otherwise on another site :lol: So what do y'all think?
[edit] side note: hippy, don't let age fool you, some of us younguns are quite advanced in a variety of areas ;) [edit]
[Modified by BowTieBlood, 5:37 PM 12/6/2003]
12-06-2003, 07:09 PM
#33
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (BowTieBlood)
what gears do you have?
I say converter & gears (obviously) but if you can only do one, i would do none other thana vigi 3000 stall and a big butt B&M cooler. (assuming stock motor) But then again, your looking over a grand with installation and cooler.
Gears, i think stealdads67 got his for like $200?
gears are also less strenious on the drivetrain and could actually help your trans live longer.
If you are planning to stay relativly close to stock, maybe a cheaper converter and a big cooler. but DEFINATLY get gears to go along with it :cheers:
I say converter & gears (obviously) but if you can only do one, i would do none other thana vigi 3000 stall and a big butt B&M cooler. (assuming stock motor) But then again, your looking over a grand with installation and cooler.
Gears, i think stealdads67 got his for like $200?
gears are also less strenious on the drivetrain and could actually help your trans live longer.
If you are planning to stay relativly close to stock, maybe a cheaper converter and a big cooler. but DEFINATLY get gears to go along with it :cheers:
12-06-2003, 07:41 PM
#35
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (BowTieBlood)
BowTieBlood,
Go back and read my post concerning my Crossfire vs the LS1 Camero. I got double the "bang" he did. MY converter cost more than his gears, but I still think I got more "bang for the buck". How can you put a value on being able to say that my stock Crossfire beat a stock LS1?
Engineers, Students, Experienced Mechanics, Past Presnt and Future Racers,
Lend me your ears. Gears, except those that are 1:1 and overdrive, multiply torque. Torque is required to do work. Work is defined as a mass being moved. More torque will do more work. Let's make a few assumptions for illustration purposes. We start off with 2 cars that are identical, except for the rear axle ratio. They both stall at 2000 rpms, and produce 200 ft. lbs. of torque at that 2000 rpms. That 200 ft.lbs becomes 612ft.lbs at the drive shaft after it is multiplied by the 3.06"1 transmission first gear. For ease of discussion, we'll ignore the torque multipliction that takes place inside the converter. Car "A" has 3.07:1 rear gears. That puts (612 X 3.07) 1878 ft.lbs at the rear tires. Car "B" has 4.11:1 rear gears. This puts (612 X 4.11) 2515 ft,lbs at the same place. If the tractive effort is between 1878 and 2515 ft.lbs, Car "B" is going to spin it's tires. If the tractive effort is something higher than 2515 ft.lbs, both cars are going to "hook", and car "B" is going to pull away, initially, from car "A" because it has more torque available to accelerate it's equal weight car. The same weight acted upon by a greater force is going to result in a greater amount of work being accomplished. Anybody follow this? Head directly to your lab session, which is being held at the drag strip. Class dismissed.
RACE ON!!!
Go back and read my post concerning my Crossfire vs the LS1 Camero. I got double the "bang" he did. MY converter cost more than his gears, but I still think I got more "bang for the buck". How can you put a value on being able to say that my stock Crossfire beat a stock LS1?
Engineers, Students, Experienced Mechanics, Past Presnt and Future Racers,
Lend me your ears. Gears, except those that are 1:1 and overdrive, multiply torque. Torque is required to do work. Work is defined as a mass being moved. More torque will do more work. Let's make a few assumptions for illustration purposes. We start off with 2 cars that are identical, except for the rear axle ratio. They both stall at 2000 rpms, and produce 200 ft. lbs. of torque at that 2000 rpms. That 200 ft.lbs becomes 612ft.lbs at the drive shaft after it is multiplied by the 3.06"1 transmission first gear. For ease of discussion, we'll ignore the torque multipliction that takes place inside the converter. Car "A" has 3.07:1 rear gears. That puts (612 X 3.07) 1878 ft.lbs at the rear tires. Car "B" has 4.11:1 rear gears. This puts (612 X 4.11) 2515 ft,lbs at the same place. If the tractive effort is between 1878 and 2515 ft.lbs, Car "B" is going to spin it's tires. If the tractive effort is something higher than 2515 ft.lbs, both cars are going to "hook", and car "B" is going to pull away, initially, from car "A" because it has more torque available to accelerate it's equal weight car. The same weight acted upon by a greater force is going to result in a greater amount of work being accomplished. Anybody follow this? Head directly to your lab session, which is being held at the drag strip. Class dismissed.
RACE ON!!!
12-06-2003, 07:42 PM
#36
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (TreyZ28)
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
That makes no sense. With that logic, your tires would spin easier in 2nd gear than 1st.
12-07-2003, 03:12 AM
#37
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (flyersfan1088)
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
That makes no sense. With that logic, your tires would spin easier in 2nd gear than 1st.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
That makes no sense. With that logic, your tires would spin easier in 2nd gear than 1st.
12-07-2003, 09:52 AM
#38
Safety Car
Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (hippy)
Kind of an interesting discussion, but it seems to me we need to consider two separate phenoma(actually more than 2 if you count motor size, tire traction, etc) and then combine them to get the overall response.
First consider what happens at the instant lockup occurs (or in case of manuel when you pop clutch) and secondly what happens AFTER lockup (after clutch is out) occurs.
At the instant of lockup the "system" is definately going to be shocked more with a higher stall speed & higher gear ratio than with lower stall speed and lower gear ratio. (More shock will either result in more tire spin or tendency stall motor..)
After lockup more torque is going to the rear wheels with the lower gear ratio than with the higher gear ratio, "somewhat" independent of the torque convertor lockup.
So in my opinion everyone is pretty much correct in their theories, but to get a final analysis you need to consider all aspectc of a vehicle as an entire integrated system to determine how it will perform.
An example of the instant of lockup:
REV the engine & pop the clutch on a dump truck in creeper gear.....It will probably leap to 1/2mph with no tire spin....an extreme example of a higher TC and low gear ratio. Reason it didn't spin is the system was shocked only minimally trying to get engine RPM to match speed.
Put the truck in a little higher gear and do the same thing....result will either be tire spin or more likely will stall motor unless we really beef up motor etc.
Example of after lockup:
If I did a rolling start on my car with the 3.45 gears it almost for sure would just go with no tire spin......with 4.10 gears it will start to go ok, but once the revs get up to about 3000 there is good chance will loss traction. Why because the lower gear ratio gets more torque to the rear wheels.
So actually whether you do TC, gears, or both, you need to hook-up to get the benefit. Which will give you the most benefit or bang for the buck will depend on your starting point & where you end up afterwards. A mod doesn't do much good, for example, if all you do is spin tires, or you run out of rpm at the top speed end, .........
First consider what happens at the instant lockup occurs (or in case of manuel when you pop clutch) and secondly what happens AFTER lockup (after clutch is out) occurs.
At the instant of lockup the "system" is definately going to be shocked more with a higher stall speed & higher gear ratio than with lower stall speed and lower gear ratio. (More shock will either result in more tire spin or tendency stall motor..)
After lockup more torque is going to the rear wheels with the lower gear ratio than with the higher gear ratio, "somewhat" independent of the torque convertor lockup.
So in my opinion everyone is pretty much correct in their theories, but to get a final analysis you need to consider all aspectc of a vehicle as an entire integrated system to determine how it will perform.
An example of the instant of lockup:
REV the engine & pop the clutch on a dump truck in creeper gear.....It will probably leap to 1/2mph with no tire spin....an extreme example of a higher TC and low gear ratio. Reason it didn't spin is the system was shocked only minimally trying to get engine RPM to match speed.
Put the truck in a little higher gear and do the same thing....result will either be tire spin or more likely will stall motor unless we really beef up motor etc.
Example of after lockup:
If I did a rolling start on my car with the 3.45 gears it almost for sure would just go with no tire spin......with 4.10 gears it will start to go ok, but once the revs get up to about 3000 there is good chance will loss traction. Why because the lower gear ratio gets more torque to the rear wheels.
So actually whether you do TC, gears, or both, you need to hook-up to get the benefit. Which will give you the most benefit or bang for the buck will depend on your starting point & where you end up afterwards. A mod doesn't do much good, for example, if all you do is spin tires, or you run out of rpm at the top speed end, .........
12-14-2003, 12:28 AM
#39
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (flyersfan1088)
Heres the best way I can explain it; with some very simple math.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
That makes no sense. With that logic, your tires would spin easier in 2nd gear than 1st.
with a 3400 stall coverter and 3.07 gears; off the line when your coverter
flashes at 3400rpm, your tires will try to instintaniously go 0 to 32mph when you let off the brake.
with the same sall and 4.10 gears, you are attempting to go 0-24 mph instinatiusly. it is a LOT easier for your tires to hook 0-24 than 0-34.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:44 AM 12/6/2003]
That makes no sense. With that logic, your tires would spin easier in 2nd gear than 1st.
1. Islanders rule (they WILL BE BACK!)
2. Let me explain why 1st gear HOOKS better than 2nd gear.
there are 2 parts in a "good" hook.
a. Obviously no spinning.
b. a HARD hook. there would be no point in stalling higher or even power if we didn't want to accelerate faster.
So yes, 3rd gear- you probobly wont spin unless you ahve some massive power or a lead flywheel
so why not 3rd? hell why not 6th?
because you are missing the 2nd part. a HARD hook. with tall gears you CANT hook hard, not due to only due to the lack of torque, but also the whole 0-34 vs 0-24 mph thing
it seems you are confusing "cant burn out" with "traction/hooking"
controll spinning with use of right foot.
by the suggested course of action, a 2nd gear launch would yeild better 60 ft times.
using taller gears is like using traction controll. Sure, it guarantees no terrible times but it certainly doesn't let you maxize time (ASR anyway). Its like FWD vs RWD.
I dont really see whats do difficult about this.
to be at 3400 with the taller gears, you must be at 34mph. End of story.
Now you either get the tires to go 34mph by hooking and getting to 34 almost instantly, spinning them or you can bogg the motor down to 2400rpms, launch softer and fight the taller gears to get back into your powerband
or you can hook MUCH easier at 24mph with shorter gears, stay in your powerband and further utilize the gearing advantage.
Sure you spin around, but the RWD car has a better max potential.
[Modified by TreyZ28, 11:26 PM 12/14/2003]
12-14-2003, 04:11 AM
#40
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Re: Torque Converter vs. Gears, what's the low down? (TreyZ28)
Since we are comparing what "each" will do, and assuming that everybody here is running decent tires ( not 5" polyglass of the 1960's), then the biggest gain (everytime) would be a torque converter (were talking 9.5" Yanks, Vigilante's, or other high quality TC's). Let's be reasonable, if you are blowing away the tires now!!! why would you think that a TC change or gear change will help you, when you need to address the traction problem!!! Next, "IF" you have traction?, then a TC change will always give you more of a gain. The gear change is to "optimize" what you are attempting to do. Yes, if there is a "mismatch" in the gearing area with a high stall, will it produce more heat?, yes. Simple solution run a larger rated gvw cooler. Question, even with this mismatch, how many of you have seen the transmission overheat with one of the high quality torque converters mentioned?