Cryogenics and Motorsports.
10-21-2003, 12:55 PM
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Drifting
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Cryogenics and Motorsports.
Okay...Some have asked me to give a rundown of this subject including what the process is, how it works, and its benefits for vehicle applications. The following is NOT a solicitation for my own company but is meant for informational purposes to those that asked me to post it... This is a recent synopsis I wrote for future publication in "Fastest Street Car" magazine and is fairly generalized...Those with more questions after reading this are welcome to ask.
-Jeb
Cryogenics and Motorsports:
Improving Racing Through Technology
Have you ever noticed the “trickle down” effect that motorsports receives from the aerospace industry? A/N plumbing, exotic materials, new machining techniques, and high tech processes all find their way into our racecars… A perfect example of this is deep cryogenic processing; aerospace industries have used this treatment for over thirty years on critical components to increase their durability, relieve residual stresses, stabilize critical dimensions, and increase overall lifespan. Through the research and development of aeronautics, cryogenic processing progressed into the industrial and manufacturing segment as a means of improving tooling life; then it made its way into the firearms industry in the form of stress relieving high grade target rifle barrels. It also found its way into other sporting goods such as aluminum softball bats and golf clubs; many major manufacturers use the process to provide greater striking distance for their customers. Finally it has made its way to our sport. Today it is embraced by professional racers in many different sanctioning bodies, NASCAR, Formula One, Trans-Am, and the NHRA are but a few of the organizations whose racers use the cryogenic process to ensure their components never let them down at a critical moment. But, like many racers, you may not be familiar with the process and why it is something that you should look into.
What is Cryogenics and What Are Its Results and Benefits?
Cryogenics typically draws images of bodies frozen in suspended animation awaiting the day a cure for disease is found and they can be reanimated; in our case though it is much more mundane. Cryogenic processing was discovered accidentally by NASA engineers who found that some components on satellites were markedly stronger after they returned from the cold vacuum of space. But in more common terms it can actually be viewed as an extension of the heating/quenching/tempering cycle. We will examine Deep Freeze Cryogenics’ Vari-Cold™ process to shed some light on both the process itself and the physical attributes that are found after processing.
The Vari-Cold process is based on a predetermined thermal cycle that involves cooling of the material in a computer controlled cryogenic chamber. Vari-Cold utilizes the ramping benefits of ultra-cold nitrogen gas in conjunction with the deep cryogenic “soak” benefits provided by the use of liquid nitrogen. Materials are initially cooled to cryogenic temperatures with nitrogen gas utilizing precisely controlled temperature profiles, then slowly introduced to liquid nitrogen for the duration of the “soak” period (approximately 20 hours). The liquid phase provides the most efficient and uniform deep cryogenic soak at a constant temperature of –320 degrees Fahrenheit (impossible to achieve with gas alone). Materials are then slowly brought back to ambient temperatures. At that time, those materials requiring a post-cryo tempering are moved to a specially designed oven to complete this critical procedure.
The use of precisely controlled temperature profiles avoids any possibility of thermal stress that is experienced when a material or part is subjected to abrupt or extreme temperature changes. Though liquid nitrogen is used as a refrigerant, no material is introduced to the liquid until it has been slowly cooled and stabilized at cryogenic temperatures by the gaseous phase of the process.
Cryogenically treated materials show a marked increase in wear resistance without any discernable change in dimensional or volumetric integrity. The treated material becomes less brittle, without a significant change in overall hardness. The most significant and consistent change is the increased toughness, dimensional stability, and the ability to withstand increased abuse. The process is also used extensively to relieve residual and tensile stresses produced by forging, casting, machining, or welding of the subject material.
Two main changes in the microstructure of the material occur as a result of cryogenic processing. These changes are the principal reasons for the dramatic improvement in wear resistance.
First the retained austenitic grain structure (a loose knit, weak grain structure always present after heat treatment) is transformed into the harder, more durable martensitic grain structure. The range of retained austenite in a material after tempering may be as high as 50 percent or as low as five percent dependant upon the tempering equipment and the accuracy of the operator. Cryogenic treatment simply continues the conversion initiated by heat treatment, whereby 100 percent of the retained austenite is converted to martensite. As greater amounts of this retained austenitic structure is transformed and the wear resistant martensitic grain is increased, the material obtains a more uniform hardening. It can be viewed as a “through hardening” that goes above and beyond what is found in the heat treating cycle.
Second, fine eta carbide particles or precipitates are formed during the long cryogenic “soak” depending upon the alloying elements of the material. These are in addition to the larger carbide particles present before the cryogenic processing. The fine particles or “fillers,” along with the larger particles, form a dense, more coherent, and much tougher matrix in the material.
The surface energy of the martensitic structure is higher than the surface energy of the austenitic structure due to differences in their atomic structures. In potential adhesive-wear situations (like those found in the reciprocating assemblies of engines and driveline components), the martensitic grain is less likely to tear out than is the austenitic structure. The adhesive-wear coefficient is decreased, and the wear rate is decreased. In abrasive-wear situations (like piston to cylinder bore wear and clutch wear), both the martensitic formation and the fine eta carbide formation work together to reduce wear. The additional fine carbide particles help support the martensite matrix. This makes it more difficult to dig out lumps of the material. When a hard particle is squeezed onto the surface, the carbide matrix resists plowing and wear is reduced.
Almost any kind of ferrous and non-ferrous material, for whatever application, will exhibit a lifespan increase. As fewer parts are needed there is a substantial savings for the racer. Additionally decreased instances of component failure and wear will allow you to go more rounds and win more races with less time involved in maintenance and part replacement.
Motorsports Applications and Benefits
As recounted from above, just about any component that is subject to wear can be improved through cryogenic processing. It doesn’t matter whether it’s nodular iron, forged steel, aluminum, titanium, and even some composites (like nylon, delrin, and Teflon); they all exhibit increased durability and lifespans. Anywhere there is a possibility of wear, whether it is friction related, rolling, abrasive, adhesive, or impact; cryogenically treated components will keep the racer on the track. During the course of DFC’s research and development some components simply stood out after processing; the following are some examples.
Engine blocks and reciprocating assemblies are among the most significant of all components that show remarkable improvements after cryogenic treatment. Cast iron blocks that have been processed show decreased wear on the cylinder wall and have a reduced coefficient of friction resulting in better cylinder sealing. The further benefits of dimensional stabilization and stress relief are evident when you tear your engine down after the season; you will no doubt notice that your cylinders are no longer round but have become oval. Why? Whenever you bore, hone, or perform any other machining they become stressed. Pistons become oval when heated and wear against the cylinder wall forcing a similar shape on them; then you have poor sealing and increased leakdown resulting in decreased power. The cryogenic treatment removes these stresses on both the block and the pistons so now when they become hot there is no stress to cause these distortions. The pistons and cylinders still grow but they do so uniformly and the cylinder seal remains constant. When the engine block is cryogenically treated and the stresses are removed the dimensions stay constant and the reciprocating assembly will remain in proper alignment. Crankshafts and their bearings will resist the adhesive wear common in their usage and it is often found that bearings can be reused after an entire season because there is no wear evidenced. Typically a racer will see a four to eight percent increase in power production over an identical untreated engine.
Among the most highly stressed components in an engine are the valvetrain components. Valve springs themselves are the number one producer of heat in an engine due to their vibratory nature. Through cryogenic processing they stabilize at their rated pressure much more quickly and remain within spec for a longer length of time. Pushrods are less likely to bend or break after treatment, as are rocker arm assemblies. Camshafts and lifters are among the most significant of increases found after cryogenic treatment. The flat tappet camshafts and lifters common in many classes due to camshaft rules exhibit durability increases sometimes in excess of 400 percent. A few of DFC’s clients even report that the typical break-in procedure for flat tappet cams is no longer required! Roller camshafts and lifters in the racing environment typically have very aggressive ramp profiles that require extreme spring pressures in order to maintain lifter contact. These pressures are extremely hard on the needle bearings in the lifters as well as on the cam lobe itself. Cryogenically treated roller cams and lifters will live a longer and more productive life ensuring consistent valve timing.
Driveline components such as ring and pinions, axles, transmissions, clutch assemblies, and braking assemblies are subjected to some of the harshest punishment in the motorsports environment. The impact wear on differentials and axles in drag racing can be significantly reduced through cryogenic treatment. A torque converter manufacturer unwilling to convert to spragless configuration increased their torque carrying capability by over 250 lb/ft. on their inner and outer sprags through DFC’s Vari-Cold process. Brake rotors in a road-racing environment have shown lifespan increases of 500 percent. The process allows for more aggressive pads to be used without a detrimental affect on rotor life. Input and output shafts in transmissions, even those built out of the ultra-tough Vasco 300m material, show marked increases in torque handling capacity after cryogenic treatment.
Unfortunately the process does have a downfall; that downfall is that those unfamiliar with it will persist in their present thinking that it’s all a good marketing ploy. Afterall, cryogenic processing shows no outwardly visual change and if you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist, right? It doesn’t feel different either. So many racers dismiss a product or process because the physical benefits cannot be seen or felt; but the results at the end of the season speak for themselves. Perhaps some day it will be common knowledge that cryogenically treated components last longer and produce more consistent results. If you’re experiencing breakage or want that last little edge what do you have to lose? The guy in front of you knows…
-Jeb
Cryogenics and Motorsports:
Improving Racing Through Technology
Have you ever noticed the “trickle down” effect that motorsports receives from the aerospace industry? A/N plumbing, exotic materials, new machining techniques, and high tech processes all find their way into our racecars… A perfect example of this is deep cryogenic processing; aerospace industries have used this treatment for over thirty years on critical components to increase their durability, relieve residual stresses, stabilize critical dimensions, and increase overall lifespan. Through the research and development of aeronautics, cryogenic processing progressed into the industrial and manufacturing segment as a means of improving tooling life; then it made its way into the firearms industry in the form of stress relieving high grade target rifle barrels. It also found its way into other sporting goods such as aluminum softball bats and golf clubs; many major manufacturers use the process to provide greater striking distance for their customers. Finally it has made its way to our sport. Today it is embraced by professional racers in many different sanctioning bodies, NASCAR, Formula One, Trans-Am, and the NHRA are but a few of the organizations whose racers use the cryogenic process to ensure their components never let them down at a critical moment. But, like many racers, you may not be familiar with the process and why it is something that you should look into.
What is Cryogenics and What Are Its Results and Benefits?
Cryogenics typically draws images of bodies frozen in suspended animation awaiting the day a cure for disease is found and they can be reanimated; in our case though it is much more mundane. Cryogenic processing was discovered accidentally by NASA engineers who found that some components on satellites were markedly stronger after they returned from the cold vacuum of space. But in more common terms it can actually be viewed as an extension of the heating/quenching/tempering cycle. We will examine Deep Freeze Cryogenics’ Vari-Cold™ process to shed some light on both the process itself and the physical attributes that are found after processing.
The Vari-Cold process is based on a predetermined thermal cycle that involves cooling of the material in a computer controlled cryogenic chamber. Vari-Cold utilizes the ramping benefits of ultra-cold nitrogen gas in conjunction with the deep cryogenic “soak” benefits provided by the use of liquid nitrogen. Materials are initially cooled to cryogenic temperatures with nitrogen gas utilizing precisely controlled temperature profiles, then slowly introduced to liquid nitrogen for the duration of the “soak” period (approximately 20 hours). The liquid phase provides the most efficient and uniform deep cryogenic soak at a constant temperature of –320 degrees Fahrenheit (impossible to achieve with gas alone). Materials are then slowly brought back to ambient temperatures. At that time, those materials requiring a post-cryo tempering are moved to a specially designed oven to complete this critical procedure.
The use of precisely controlled temperature profiles avoids any possibility of thermal stress that is experienced when a material or part is subjected to abrupt or extreme temperature changes. Though liquid nitrogen is used as a refrigerant, no material is introduced to the liquid until it has been slowly cooled and stabilized at cryogenic temperatures by the gaseous phase of the process.
Cryogenically treated materials show a marked increase in wear resistance without any discernable change in dimensional or volumetric integrity. The treated material becomes less brittle, without a significant change in overall hardness. The most significant and consistent change is the increased toughness, dimensional stability, and the ability to withstand increased abuse. The process is also used extensively to relieve residual and tensile stresses produced by forging, casting, machining, or welding of the subject material.
Two main changes in the microstructure of the material occur as a result of cryogenic processing. These changes are the principal reasons for the dramatic improvement in wear resistance.
First the retained austenitic grain structure (a loose knit, weak grain structure always present after heat treatment) is transformed into the harder, more durable martensitic grain structure. The range of retained austenite in a material after tempering may be as high as 50 percent or as low as five percent dependant upon the tempering equipment and the accuracy of the operator. Cryogenic treatment simply continues the conversion initiated by heat treatment, whereby 100 percent of the retained austenite is converted to martensite. As greater amounts of this retained austenitic structure is transformed and the wear resistant martensitic grain is increased, the material obtains a more uniform hardening. It can be viewed as a “through hardening” that goes above and beyond what is found in the heat treating cycle.
Second, fine eta carbide particles or precipitates are formed during the long cryogenic “soak” depending upon the alloying elements of the material. These are in addition to the larger carbide particles present before the cryogenic processing. The fine particles or “fillers,” along with the larger particles, form a dense, more coherent, and much tougher matrix in the material.
The surface energy of the martensitic structure is higher than the surface energy of the austenitic structure due to differences in their atomic structures. In potential adhesive-wear situations (like those found in the reciprocating assemblies of engines and driveline components), the martensitic grain is less likely to tear out than is the austenitic structure. The adhesive-wear coefficient is decreased, and the wear rate is decreased. In abrasive-wear situations (like piston to cylinder bore wear and clutch wear), both the martensitic formation and the fine eta carbide formation work together to reduce wear. The additional fine carbide particles help support the martensite matrix. This makes it more difficult to dig out lumps of the material. When a hard particle is squeezed onto the surface, the carbide matrix resists plowing and wear is reduced.
Almost any kind of ferrous and non-ferrous material, for whatever application, will exhibit a lifespan increase. As fewer parts are needed there is a substantial savings for the racer. Additionally decreased instances of component failure and wear will allow you to go more rounds and win more races with less time involved in maintenance and part replacement.
Motorsports Applications and Benefits
As recounted from above, just about any component that is subject to wear can be improved through cryogenic processing. It doesn’t matter whether it’s nodular iron, forged steel, aluminum, titanium, and even some composites (like nylon, delrin, and Teflon); they all exhibit increased durability and lifespans. Anywhere there is a possibility of wear, whether it is friction related, rolling, abrasive, adhesive, or impact; cryogenically treated components will keep the racer on the track. During the course of DFC’s research and development some components simply stood out after processing; the following are some examples.
Engine blocks and reciprocating assemblies are among the most significant of all components that show remarkable improvements after cryogenic treatment. Cast iron blocks that have been processed show decreased wear on the cylinder wall and have a reduced coefficient of friction resulting in better cylinder sealing. The further benefits of dimensional stabilization and stress relief are evident when you tear your engine down after the season; you will no doubt notice that your cylinders are no longer round but have become oval. Why? Whenever you bore, hone, or perform any other machining they become stressed. Pistons become oval when heated and wear against the cylinder wall forcing a similar shape on them; then you have poor sealing and increased leakdown resulting in decreased power. The cryogenic treatment removes these stresses on both the block and the pistons so now when they become hot there is no stress to cause these distortions. The pistons and cylinders still grow but they do so uniformly and the cylinder seal remains constant. When the engine block is cryogenically treated and the stresses are removed the dimensions stay constant and the reciprocating assembly will remain in proper alignment. Crankshafts and their bearings will resist the adhesive wear common in their usage and it is often found that bearings can be reused after an entire season because there is no wear evidenced. Typically a racer will see a four to eight percent increase in power production over an identical untreated engine.
Among the most highly stressed components in an engine are the valvetrain components. Valve springs themselves are the number one producer of heat in an engine due to their vibratory nature. Through cryogenic processing they stabilize at their rated pressure much more quickly and remain within spec for a longer length of time. Pushrods are less likely to bend or break after treatment, as are rocker arm assemblies. Camshafts and lifters are among the most significant of increases found after cryogenic treatment. The flat tappet camshafts and lifters common in many classes due to camshaft rules exhibit durability increases sometimes in excess of 400 percent. A few of DFC’s clients even report that the typical break-in procedure for flat tappet cams is no longer required! Roller camshafts and lifters in the racing environment typically have very aggressive ramp profiles that require extreme spring pressures in order to maintain lifter contact. These pressures are extremely hard on the needle bearings in the lifters as well as on the cam lobe itself. Cryogenically treated roller cams and lifters will live a longer and more productive life ensuring consistent valve timing.
Driveline components such as ring and pinions, axles, transmissions, clutch assemblies, and braking assemblies are subjected to some of the harshest punishment in the motorsports environment. The impact wear on differentials and axles in drag racing can be significantly reduced through cryogenic treatment. A torque converter manufacturer unwilling to convert to spragless configuration increased their torque carrying capability by over 250 lb/ft. on their inner and outer sprags through DFC’s Vari-Cold process. Brake rotors in a road-racing environment have shown lifespan increases of 500 percent. The process allows for more aggressive pads to be used without a detrimental affect on rotor life. Input and output shafts in transmissions, even those built out of the ultra-tough Vasco 300m material, show marked increases in torque handling capacity after cryogenic treatment.
Unfortunately the process does have a downfall; that downfall is that those unfamiliar with it will persist in their present thinking that it’s all a good marketing ploy. Afterall, cryogenic processing shows no outwardly visual change and if you can’t see it, it doesn’t exist, right? It doesn’t feel different either. So many racers dismiss a product or process because the physical benefits cannot be seen or felt; but the results at the end of the season speak for themselves. Perhaps some day it will be common knowledge that cryogenically treated components last longer and produce more consistent results. If you’re experiencing breakage or want that last little edge what do you have to lose? The guy in front of you knows…
10-21-2003, 01:51 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (jburnett)
I guess that's what they were teaching the day I sleep through Machincs of Materials. :thumbs:
10-21-2003, 01:57 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (jburnett)
great article,I live in the UK,is this process done worldwide?Do different materials have different "soak" time and temperatures or are they all the same?
10-21-2003, 05:35 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (Ramanstud)
:crazy: :crazy:
Cool article
:withstupid:
Cool article
Now I want to cryo-treat EVERYTHING... but boy it sounds expensive.
:leaving:
:leaving:
10-21-2003, 05:38 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (Ramanstud)
The process is done worldwide...Many manufacturing concerns utilize the process for their tooling; certain alloys like D2 high speed have shown documented gains of 820% in lifespan. Many tool and die shops use it as well and of course it is prolific in the aerospace industry.
All materials are processed for the same length of time and the same temperature wholly independant of their alloy composition.
The process is not cost prohibitive at all...It's relatively inexpensive compared to some processes and its benefits far outweigh its cost. I've got a customer named John Shepherd who is the national ET and MPH record holder for the Sport Compact "Hot Street" class; he runs an AWD Mitsubishi Eclipse. There are no or relatively few aftermarket driveline components available and with low 9 second passes at over 150 mph he was frequently breaking trannys, axles, diffs, and their related components. We cryoed his entire driveline and he's now running 8's at over 160 with low 1.3 short times and hasn't broken a single component since we processed them...Over 100 passes later (he was breaking every 8-10 passes). For a cross-over for Vettes lets look at the drive spindles... They are notoriously weak, I've actually tested the Rockwell on some and found most to be between 10-28C...That's SOFT!!! No wonder I've twisted about 15 in half!! When I opened my business 4 spindles were in the first batch I ran with my new equipment... The ones I installed in the car ARE STILL IN THERE; even after countless bottom 10 second and a few 9 second runs on a stick shift car... It works amazingly well.
All materials are processed for the same length of time and the same temperature wholly independant of their alloy composition.
The process is not cost prohibitive at all...It's relatively inexpensive compared to some processes and its benefits far outweigh its cost. I've got a customer named John Shepherd who is the national ET and MPH record holder for the Sport Compact "Hot Street" class; he runs an AWD Mitsubishi Eclipse. There are no or relatively few aftermarket driveline components available and with low 9 second passes at over 150 mph he was frequently breaking trannys, axles, diffs, and their related components. We cryoed his entire driveline and he's now running 8's at over 160 with low 1.3 short times and hasn't broken a single component since we processed them...Over 100 passes later (he was breaking every 8-10 passes). For a cross-over for Vettes lets look at the drive spindles... They are notoriously weak, I've actually tested the Rockwell on some and found most to be between 10-28C...That's SOFT!!! No wonder I've twisted about 15 in half!! When I opened my business 4 spindles were in the first batch I ran with my new equipment... The ones I installed in the car ARE STILL IN THERE; even after countless bottom 10 second and a few 9 second runs on a stick shift car... It works amazingly well.
10-21-2003, 10:47 PM
#8
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (C4DC)
I have first hand seen the benefits from cryo treating tools used in powdered metal compaction presses. The tools take many thousand more strokes is not million to wear out or break.
For that matter last month we had a die setter not pay attention to what he was doing and double molded on the press.....press is rated at 550 TONS, but capable motor wise to do much more. The press came down with a part stuck to the face of the top punch, and tried to mold again. But clearances obvously are not there with two parts. It ripped the entire top of the press off! Pulled in tension, 4-8" diameter rods apart! THat is scarey powerful. Shook the entire facility, and luckily for the die setter the tools did not explode that were only ~3.5" in diameter...still don't know how they didn't explode. If that was amazing enough, we took them out of the press and had them checked.....not a single thing was wrong with them! The cost to repair the press was ~$250K :eek:
Only thing anyone can contibute the brute strength of the tools holding up to the unreal power is they were a fresh set of tools just back from cryo treating. But in our case, it would have been better if the tools would have crushed ($15K instead of $250K).
I have never heard a bad thing said about the process from any point of view. :cheers:
For that matter last month we had a die setter not pay attention to what he was doing and double molded on the press.....press is rated at 550 TONS, but capable motor wise to do much more. The press came down with a part stuck to the face of the top punch, and tried to mold again. But clearances obvously are not there with two parts. It ripped the entire top of the press off! Pulled in tension, 4-8" diameter rods apart! THat is scarey powerful. Shook the entire facility, and luckily for the die setter the tools did not explode that were only ~3.5" in diameter...still don't know how they didn't explode. If that was amazing enough, we took them out of the press and had them checked.....not a single thing was wrong with them! The cost to repair the press was ~$250K :eek:
Only thing anyone can contibute the brute strength of the tools holding up to the unreal power is they were a fresh set of tools just back from cryo treating. But in our case, it would have been better if the tools would have crushed ($15K instead of $250K).
I have never heard a bad thing said about the process from any point of view. :cheers:
10-22-2003, 11:33 AM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (HC4-Vette)
$300 for a complete D36... That's the diff with all internal components (r&p, posi-unit, stub axles, bearings, etc) as well as the halfshafts and drive spindles...
-Jeb
-Jeb
10-22-2003, 12:24 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (jburnett)
Jeb, just to clarify things a little. When you say complete, do you mean a fully assembled unit, or all of the pieces.
10-22-2003, 12:34 PM
#12
Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (jburnett)
Jeb,
To do a complete ZF-6, I assume that it should be disassembled? I'm thinking that the aluminum housing, having a higher coeficient of thermal expansion, will shrink more than the steel shafts and bearings. And the aluminum may end up being deformed slightly.
Are your cryo machines of the "dry" type, that do not let the liquid nitrogen actually contact the parts?
To do a complete ZF-6, I assume that it should be disassembled? I'm thinking that the aluminum housing, having a higher coeficient of thermal expansion, will shrink more than the steel shafts and bearings. And the aluminum may end up being deformed slightly.
Are your cryo machines of the "dry" type, that do not let the liquid nitrogen actually contact the parts?
10-22-2003, 01:04 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (SloRvette)
hmmm.. That just might be a good alternative to a D44.
Wonder how strong a treated D36 would be in comparison to a D44?
Wonder how strong a treated D36 would be in comparison to a D44?
10-22-2003, 03:59 PM
#14
Le Mans Master
How does the cryo-ing affect the soft parts if everything is still assembled when treated? I wouldn't think rubber seals and the like would take too kindly to the extremes in temperature.
Oh great - I can hear my tranny calling for freeze.
Dale
Oh great - I can hear my tranny calling for freeze.
Dale
10-22-2003, 06:30 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (jburnett)
Great reading! A sidenote. While the process makes items stronger, it can have quite the opposite effect while actually in process. What I mean is, the frozen items are very strong when carefully brought back to temperature, but while frozen, are in fact very brittle. I showed some guys at work this experiment. Get two pairs of pliers, a penny, and an ordinary can of computer dust-off air. Grasp the penny in one set of pliers, invert the can of air and freeze the penny. It will easily snap off clean with the other pliers without bending. :D
10-22-2003, 06:53 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (SloRvette)
Jeb did my Dana 44 diff assembly complete, yokes,seals,carrier assembly,ring and pinion, bearings, ect. I didn't have to disassemble anything. I have had no problems with the seals after the cryo process.
[Modified by tpi 421 vette, 10:11 PM 10/22/2003]
[Modified by tpi 421 vette, 10:11 PM 10/22/2003]
10-22-2003, 06:59 PM
#17
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (95AquaC4)
Does this meen for people who have the Dana 36 and are planning on swaping for the Dana 44... they can just have the 36 Cryogenicaly treated?
this including the read end casing and the gears inside?
and! about how much woudl this Cryogenic treatment cost? aprox for a rear end or a engine block? I'm just curious.
[Modified by TheStef, 5:59 PM 10/22/2003]
this including the read end casing and the gears inside?
and! about how much woudl this Cryogenic treatment cost? aprox for a rear end or a engine block? I'm just curious.
[Modified by TheStef, 5:59 PM 10/22/2003]
10-22-2003, 07:02 PM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (TheStef)
Has this technologie started being used on new cars being built... example: the new C6 ? or any other cars you guys might know about.
I find this very facinating
I find this very facinating
10-23-2003, 11:28 AM
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Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (TheStef)
Let's see if I can get to these last few questions...Perhaps in reverse order...
I know of no current manufacturer utilizing cryogenically treated components in production automobiles...Why would they? They WANT stuff to wear out; everything has a cycle life and the mfg's would like to keep it that way. Now, I know a lot of mfg's use the process on their tooling. I've got a client that builds powdered metal gear assemblies, ABS reluctors, shift forks, etc. for Toyota, Nissan, Chrysler, and GM and they use my process on ALL of their die stamps, extrusion dies, and other tooling with great success... I have another mfg. that builds the towing assemblies for GM vehicles and they use it as well for their dies. But in the realm of actual automotive use it's primarily restricted to the aftermarket for severe duty applications. I do treat a lot of brake rotors and drum assemblies for trucking companies, though.
My processors are true cryogenic processors which means they allow the material to "soak" in liquid nitrogen. "Dry" processors are not true cryogenic processors since it's physically impossible to reach the needed temperatures and controls with the use of gaseous nitrogen only. Our processors are computer controlled and have a preprogrammed "descent rate" of one degree per minute using nitrogen gas. This slowly cools the material down to approximately -250F and stabilizes it there to prevent thermal shock before introduction of the liquid phase. There is no danger of brittleness or damage when processed in this manner.
Complete assemblies are routinely processed from engines to transmissions to drivetrain. There is NO detrimental effect whatsoever with "shrinkage" and "growth" rates because the process changes them so little. I've actually measured a critical die shortly after the liquid phase has ended and there was less than .0001" change in dimension which returned to dead once the entire process was complete. There is more than ample clearance to allow for this factor in ALL assemblies; nothing has clearances less than .001" which is still .0005" over the maximum we've seen. I've got two Top Alcohol dragster clients that cryo their ENTIRE aluminum big blocks and blower assemblies with great success.
As for seals it greatly depends upon the material they are composed of... The cryogenic process is a non-destructive one for almost all synthetic materials. The only thing the process will absolutely DESTROY is natural rubber; it literally turns it to powder. Most gaskets nowadays are neoprene or a similar composite material that is completely synthetic...The process will not effect them in the least, or at least we and other companies that perform this process have not seen any detrimental effect. Some composites actually gain considerable strength as a result of the process; among these are nylon, delrin, and teflon. I cryo nylon PANTY HOSE all the time and give them to the wives of my clients; they're VERY difficult to get to run! I do a lot of teflon seals for superchargers (like Roots units) and teflon apex seals for Mazda rotaries.
As for the D36 processing...You're not going to make it as strong as a D44 but you will increase the strength on it considerably. The D44 is simply larger and beefier and therefore is able to withstand much more abuse; but a cost effective way of ensuring increased durability without changing over to a 44. How strong will it make it? I don't really know; my wife's car now has well over 100 passes on its cryoed D36 which is behind a 470hp 383 and runs 11.70's on ET Streets... When I choose a R&D partner and we abuse the hell out of it I'll let ya know. I know my D44 has no trouble absorbing stick-shifted launches and 9.90 ET's and I plan on taking it into the 8's if possible; we'll just see how strong the process makes it.
I'll go back and read some more of the questions real quick and edit and add to this if need be. I'll also post some examples of the stuff we're doing and the gains we're seeing.
-Jeb
Edit: Okay here's some added stuff... I've done several complete ZF tranny's as asked above as well as one disassembled one. No differentiation whatsoever. And for what it's worth Bill Boudreau (ZFDoc) is a major proponent of the process and offers it as an option on ALL of his high end ZF's. I believe they cryo them complete as well or at least do so occasionally...
A complete D36/44 is $300.00 with the complete diff (r&p, posi-unit, stub axles, bearings, case, etc) and the halfshafts and drive spindles... Batwing and driveshaft not included. For an engine block it depends on what size it is. Small blocks are $250.00 and big blocks are $300.00. If anyone has any questions regarding price please IM me; I'm in the middle of trying to get a banner ad made for the Forum and don't want to overstep my bounds...
[Modified by jburnett, 4:35 PM 10/23/2003]
I know of no current manufacturer utilizing cryogenically treated components in production automobiles...Why would they? They WANT stuff to wear out; everything has a cycle life and the mfg's would like to keep it that way. Now, I know a lot of mfg's use the process on their tooling. I've got a client that builds powdered metal gear assemblies, ABS reluctors, shift forks, etc. for Toyota, Nissan, Chrysler, and GM and they use my process on ALL of their die stamps, extrusion dies, and other tooling with great success... I have another mfg. that builds the towing assemblies for GM vehicles and they use it as well for their dies. But in the realm of actual automotive use it's primarily restricted to the aftermarket for severe duty applications. I do treat a lot of brake rotors and drum assemblies for trucking companies, though.
My processors are true cryogenic processors which means they allow the material to "soak" in liquid nitrogen. "Dry" processors are not true cryogenic processors since it's physically impossible to reach the needed temperatures and controls with the use of gaseous nitrogen only. Our processors are computer controlled and have a preprogrammed "descent rate" of one degree per minute using nitrogen gas. This slowly cools the material down to approximately -250F and stabilizes it there to prevent thermal shock before introduction of the liquid phase. There is no danger of brittleness or damage when processed in this manner.
Complete assemblies are routinely processed from engines to transmissions to drivetrain. There is NO detrimental effect whatsoever with "shrinkage" and "growth" rates because the process changes them so little. I've actually measured a critical die shortly after the liquid phase has ended and there was less than .0001" change in dimension which returned to dead once the entire process was complete. There is more than ample clearance to allow for this factor in ALL assemblies; nothing has clearances less than .001" which is still .0005" over the maximum we've seen. I've got two Top Alcohol dragster clients that cryo their ENTIRE aluminum big blocks and blower assemblies with great success.
As for seals it greatly depends upon the material they are composed of... The cryogenic process is a non-destructive one for almost all synthetic materials. The only thing the process will absolutely DESTROY is natural rubber; it literally turns it to powder. Most gaskets nowadays are neoprene or a similar composite material that is completely synthetic...The process will not effect them in the least, or at least we and other companies that perform this process have not seen any detrimental effect. Some composites actually gain considerable strength as a result of the process; among these are nylon, delrin, and teflon. I cryo nylon PANTY HOSE all the time and give them to the wives of my clients; they're VERY difficult to get to run! I do a lot of teflon seals for superchargers (like Roots units) and teflon apex seals for Mazda rotaries.
As for the D36 processing...You're not going to make it as strong as a D44 but you will increase the strength on it considerably. The D44 is simply larger and beefier and therefore is able to withstand much more abuse; but a cost effective way of ensuring increased durability without changing over to a 44. How strong will it make it? I don't really know; my wife's car now has well over 100 passes on its cryoed D36 which is behind a 470hp 383 and runs 11.70's on ET Streets... When I choose a R&D partner and we abuse the hell out of it I'll let ya know. I know my D44 has no trouble absorbing stick-shifted launches and 9.90 ET's and I plan on taking it into the 8's if possible; we'll just see how strong the process makes it.
I'll go back and read some more of the questions real quick and edit and add to this if need be. I'll also post some examples of the stuff we're doing and the gains we're seeing.
-Jeb
Edit: Okay here's some added stuff... I've done several complete ZF tranny's as asked above as well as one disassembled one. No differentiation whatsoever. And for what it's worth Bill Boudreau (ZFDoc) is a major proponent of the process and offers it as an option on ALL of his high end ZF's. I believe they cryo them complete as well or at least do so occasionally...
A complete D36/44 is $300.00 with the complete diff (r&p, posi-unit, stub axles, bearings, case, etc) and the halfshafts and drive spindles... Batwing and driveshaft not included. For an engine block it depends on what size it is. Small blocks are $250.00 and big blocks are $300.00. If anyone has any questions regarding price please IM me; I'm in the middle of trying to get a banner ad made for the Forum and don't want to overstep my bounds...
[Modified by jburnett, 4:35 PM 10/23/2003]
10-23-2003, 10:13 PM
#20
Re: Cryogenics and Motorsports. (jburnett)
Thanks for the great info Jeb! I may ship my ZF-6 to you in the future.
On cryo'd aluminum engine blocks, does it make it harder to remove the liners? I'm curious because I heard that if aluminum cylinder heads are cryo'd with the steel valve seats in place, it becomes nearly impossible to remove the seats, and they have to be machined away instead.
What about ceramic coated aluminum parts? will the ceramic coating crack?
On cryo'd aluminum engine blocks, does it make it harder to remove the liners? I'm curious because I heard that if aluminum cylinder heads are cryo'd with the steel valve seats in place, it becomes nearly impossible to remove the seats, and they have to be machined away instead.
What about ceramic coated aluminum parts? will the ceramic coating crack?
