GREGGPENN

Looking to buy, install, and use a WIDEBAND sensor/gauge on my 383 (gen 1 SBC...1989 with 165 ECM). Looks like they run from $100 on up. More importantly, I'd like to know:

• When hooking one up, will they connect to a laptop for "datalogging" with ECM data?
• If not, are they mainly to look in logs for areas of RPM/throttle problems and find where the engine went rich/lean? (mostly during open loop (cold start-up and WOT).
• Do they come with enough wire to mount in the passenger side header, run into the cabin, and view while driving?
• Do they make a bluetooth version that can be viewed on a cellphone?
• I'm not necessarily planning to leave it mounted on an ongoing basic but more for tuning after component changes.
• Obviously brand/model recommendations are welcome. (AEM seems to be one well recommended -- alone with Innovate and a couple others)

jmgtp

About a year ago I had many of these same questions.

I landed on Innovate LC-2 and have been happy with it. As I recall it was under $200, included the sensor, cabling, and controller. To answer some of your questions …

I pinned mine into the PCM in my 94 and the data is included in the datastream. Don’t know a thing about your pcm and if that is possible or not.

It came with something like 8 feet of cabling which is more than enough for a Corvette. There are cable extensions available if needed.

It can simulate a narrowband as well if you don’t have the extra bung for it

It was easy to install and calibrate.

I've had zero problems with it.

AZSP33D

This is about 20+ years ago, so more of a perspective as I haven’t kept up, but I got a Dynojet Wideband Commander for data logging. 2000 Mustang GT, and ECM flashed/tuned with SCT Pro Race Package.

The wideband commander accepted some additional inputs like throttle position and RPM, and it had a memory you could trigger. There was some sort of Tweecer software back in the day where I could export the files, and it provided me with some excellent turning analyses, so I could find areas where I needed to make an adjustment.

Years later, I took the same Wideband Commander and installed it in a small pelican case with a small Shorai Lithium Iron battery (needed for heating wideband). I would use this to spot check different things on a dyno or to tweak start up tuning strategy, but I suppose it can be made with some inputs from the ECU and with the wideband gauge on the outside, it can be a suitcase data logger or used on other vehicles.

works great to this day, although I sold it with the Dyno.

Aardwolf

If you're not going to leave it mounted then I would do a dyno pull instead.

Tunedport90

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...deband-o2.html

D8 you can incorporate the 0-5v signal and calibrate the calibration Formula in the adx.

Phobos84

So a lot of this depends on what you want. I have a wideband that came with my Holley ECU. So it shows on my data logs. But honestly you could just use one with a simple gauge the tell you the real AFR for tuning purposes. But there are countless different types of gauges, ecu's and data boxes out there that can incorporate a wideband O2.

One thing to be mindful of is where to put it. When I first installed mine I just used the hole that came on my header for a normal O2. But after reading the guide that came with it I welded on a new bung and moved it back a foot. The readings were way different. So be sure to find out where the sensor you end up with needs to be mounted.

GREGGPENN

This....maybe.

It's what I did in 2010 after building the 383. There are a couple of things that make me think I ended up a bit rich here/there. Not sure WHERE tho. Probably during warm-up because that's never been monitored? I don't remember how but in 2010, I'm thinking IrocZ89 (Justin) from 3rdGen helped convert one of my TunerPro logs to a datastream -- then into Excel. From that, I could calculate MAF tables. (Take BLM percentage error then "add/subract" that percentage from prior values).

After doing this, my logs looked pretty good (BLMs). Before that, I did 3-4 dyno runs. I used the AFR readings on the one dyno I had emailed -- to provide PE fueling values. 35k miles later, it's still running so I might have gotten close! I figure a WIDEBAND is the one place I skimped.

Now I have visions of redoing my exhaust (3") with an FFI intake (also bigger). I'm going to assume I'll need more fuel (though it MIGHT still be within the ECM's 15% margin of error). If I use a WIDEBAND, I can monitor a broader range of conditions to be sure THIS TIME...and, before upgrades, what happened in 2010. I already have an empty bung in the passenger header so that part is easy. When I'm done, I could resell the WIDEBAND or keep it for occasional diagnosis. (Yeah, I've only needed to do that once in the last 14yrs). .

When guys are talking about pinning it into their ECMs, I'm going to assume that's only possible with ODB2? 1989 is only ODB1. Since I might have done a decent job in 2010 AND will run a dyno again, maybe those AFR readings are all I need. Won't make me sure of cold-start-up though.. And, won't help me explain why my exhaust outlets are bit "sooty" after one day's driving. (Of course, that could be from the use of 200cpi CATS vs factory density before that?

ULTM8Z

You can pin the WB into the ECM on the OBD1 and then get Tunerpro to read it. I did that on my 7730 (Camaro application).

What I would also advise is to put the WB on the same side as the NB. If you leave it in... (given OBD1's have only one O2 sensor)

Sometimes people put the WB on the oppsosite side of the NB... and it gets used for diagnostic purposes too, and when the ECM starts correcting fueling based on the NB side, you can get seemingly conflicting readings on the WB side vs the BLM's on the NB side. So you'd have to know how to interpret that data without getting confused.

GREGGPENN

I've had the issue of failing injectors (with my original 350) and saw how rich it got because only one bank is/was monitored. So, I think I understand your point about "confusion". UNLESS the system were changed where both sides are monitored, I'm thinking having the option to "SEE" both sides (one using the ECM/NB, while the other using a WB) is a good thing. It would give the owner insight to a lean/rich condition on EITHER bank. It's basically like monitoring a 4-cylinder with another running blind.. PRESUMABLY, we have to keep the other 4 cylinders running correctly by judging the way it runs AND keeping good parts installed. In that regard, keeping a 1-bank-monitored ODB1 V8 tuned up is more critical than most other cars.

Having said that, I'm not sure if you're saying the ECM is capable of reading a WB sensor (if the NB is replaced with one)....or if you merely suggest installing an additional bung on the DS so the WB and NB can give readings on the same bank? (If I think you're saying what you are, it definitely would have been better to use a wideband when EVERYTHING was new in 2010....because there would be a safer presumption both banks run as desired. I suppose it would help to install all new plugs and injectors (or have the injectors cleaned/flowed)).

Overall, I'm still clueless how to read/synch WB data with the rest of data points in an ODB1 engine. What should I GOOGLE to read up on that. Does someone have a link?




NOTE: I still like Aardwolf's comment! Cause somehow, I basically saw myself looking at the wideband while stabbing the throttle and TRYING to figure out where it might need more/less WOT (PE) fuel by RPM. Problem is...any problematic RPM can go by too damn fast.

ULTM8Z

ECM is capable of reading the WB if you hook it up correctly. But all it will do is pass the info along to a datalogging system like Tunerpro. ECM won't be able to adjust fueling using a WB.

I have mine on opposite sides since I like to be able to swap back and forth during a diagnostic situation. Also, during tuning, I can make sure both sides are running essentially the same (and in that case, if you really wanted to get fancy, you could put one WB per side and then monitor both sides simultaneously... though probably not necessary).

RWDsmoke

I have an AEM 30-0300 permanently installed that has worked well for the last four years. I chose it because it has a shallow gauge and doesn't need much space behind it. The sensor is installed in the passenger side and the cable is long enough to reach a hole in the firewall by the brake booster with the gauge mounted in the center of the dash.

yakmastermax

You should try the Fitech TPI 38351 dual wideband O2 setup with ECU and harness. I am thinking I'm going to go that route for my 383 build.

$950 for harness, ECU, and two wideband O2 sensors, one for each bank.

SuperL98

I bought an AEM Wideband gauge when they first came out.
People where just starting to talk about how to incorporate them into the data stream, but no one had done it.

I brute forced it.....

The AEM gauges have an "RS232 output for data-logging and feedback control" that dumps an Air-Fuel Ratio stream out the serial port.
You can use any terminal program to read and record this serial data.
I use the old Microsoft Hyper-Terminal to capture it.

You can dump the text into Excel and graph it.
My test runs are always from 30 to 125 mph in 4th gear, so I know the rpm range.



You can just use the data as it stands to modify the fueling, or make a spreadsheet that sizes and plots it to rpm.




The AEM gauges also have a "AEMnet (CANbus) for data-logging and daisy-chaining multiple controllers" that someone smarter than me could probably figure out how to read and record?

ULTM8Z

Yeah, you can do all sorts of cool stuff with the data. When I was trying to dial in my MAT tables after relocating it for the Miniram, I generated a tool that analyzes AFRs vs MAT using Tunerpro data.

It calculates the average AFR over the recorded run, but it filters out AFR's during which Accelerator Enrichment is active (fortunately the S_AUJP .adx reports on that as well). You kinda need to filter out the AFR contribution from AE to get rid of those momentary rich spikes as it can skew the average.

The tool allows me to plug in my desired AFR and my current PE tables, and then it'll use those values to calculate what the new tables should be.

But since it also parses out the WB AFRs as a function of air temperature, I can also use it on days with hotter or colder temperatures to adjust my MAT tables as well over time. Can also input data from multiple different runs so I can compare AFR's over different days and different air temps for MAT table adjustment.

Interesting thing was that when I discovered the $DA2/$DA3 calibrations (92-93 batch fire LT1's), and noticed the similarities with the $8D table formats, I tried the MAT tables from those and it was amazing how consistent the AFRs were over various temps on my setup (vs the $8D).

I've basically gotten everything within about a 1/4 point on the AFR, which for me is good enough... Example below with data from days that cover two different MAT ranges.

Note that I've never really had the commanded AFR closely track the actual, but I don't consider that important. But that also stresses the need for a WB in the first place.

GREGGPENN

I haven't replied for a couple of days because I'm waiting for inspiration -- to figure out if/how a "data stream" from the serial log of a wideband can be directly paired with TunerPro data? (I don't want to say something stupid -- especially being a 35+yr computer programmer).

In computer programs, you have to define a storage area, send an instruction to input from something like a serial port (to move data into memory) THEN use input data in subsequent instructions. You know.... if you just want to move and pair it with other input data. (AFR Wideband + TunerPro) We don't have access to 1989 computer code...only the tables, constants, and running parameters that are loaded. I don't know of a way to define a NEW parm OR...even write over an empty area of memory that TunerPro can see. (Should I admit I also programmed in assembler around 1990? LOTS of BASIC, COBOL, and VB too). At one point, I tried to figure out how the "smart guys" actually hacked the data/locations for companies like Moates to "hook in and alter it".

And, I'm not sure what a terminal program is -- though I probably should?

ULTM8Z: Because you are working with a later year, I don't know if that relates to 89 (though I'm thinking they went back to MAF after SD for a couple of years? Some of the data in your pasted tables aren't parms in 1989. (I should have learned other years too!)



OK...MAYBE inspiration?: If you stream wideband, then output to text/Excel file, RPM (alone) isn't enough to pair with a similar dump by TunerPro (or datalogging software). I'm thinking you need load MAF table data (which isn't by RPM -- rather MAF reading -- to match it and alter fueling. Maybe you only match it up to WOT PE data -- which specifies percentage enrichment -- to raise/lower THOSE values? If the later, then you must use NB data to get closed loop right -- like I'm thinking I did in 2010?

(See how I might have gotten there by the end of the last paragraph?!?! You guys actually saw a thought happen!!! LOL

Here's another, how does a wideband hook to and get RPMs?

SuperL98

Maybe look at this MAF 165 6E thread?

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...6e-linear.html


I never attempted all that because I just look at the graphed serial data, flatten the curve and then make global changes to get to the final ratio I want.

Takes me about four or five runs and I'm done ... I'm not a perpetual tuner.

For me it is just for WOT tuning.

Capturing the serial data stream is just an answer to not having to watch the gauge during a tuning run.

ULTM8Z

Yes, some of the parameters are different. It was mainly an example of the things you can do with WB data.

GREGGPENN

OK...makes sense. I still don't know how you retrieve rpm with AFR from the wideband. I'll thoroughly read that thread you linked tho. THANKS!!!

Is the AEM gauge the best for that? Maybe something like the

AEM Electronics X-Series Wideband UEGO Air/Fuel Sensor Controller Gauges 30-0300

which specifies datalogging via RS232?

Any better choice or is $200ish about what I should expect to pay? (for both gauge/sensor)

GREGGPENN

The rightmost table in your post #14 displays the basic methodology I used to correct fueling tables from a datalog....except to adjust fuel to correct BLM for each "cell". It SEEMED to work pretty well though I never double-checked it with an wideband. I'm thinking I could look at it during warm-up and tell if percent ADDITIONAL fueling is off (or possibly MAF tables?).....or if WOT is too rich/lean. I do LOVE the idea of capturing AFR in respect to RPM (and/or MAF value?) to adjust MAF tables or PE by RPM values.

GREGGPENN

The rightmost table in your post #14 displays the basic methodology I used to correct fueling tables from a datalog....except to adjust fuel to correct BLM for each "cell". It SEEMED to work pretty well though I never double-checked it with an wideband. I'm thinking I could look at it during warm-up and tell if percent ADDITIONAL fueling is off (or possibly MAF tables?).....or if WOT is too rich/lean. I do LOVE the idea of capturing AFR in respect to RPM (and/or MAF value?) to adjust MAF tables or PE by RPM values.