Skipzoom

The BMW dealer says they only carry TWS 10w-60 Castrol Synthetic. Are they the same? Both are 10w-60 motor oil but is it ok to use the TWS. For those of you using the Castrol, do you feel the ZF shifts easier? I'm trying to get rid or the balky feel that it has. :steering:

superlund

This should start a huge backlash, but I use Redline MTL & love it.

I got Bill Boudreau @ ZR51 performance's blessing first.

http://www.zfdoc.com/index.htm

:cheers:

GS919

The TWS 10w60 is the right stuff. Superceded the RS 10w60, still listed as the same BMW part # 075 100 094 20. I just changed to this but will not be able to try it until snow and salt season is over. Feedback that I have heard on the Castrol has been positive. Smoother shifts. :thumbs:

Rick93Z07

Balky shifting is caused by fluid that needs changed, or most oftenly, a lame clutch hydraulic system. Fresh factory fill will improve shift quality. Many folks discard cruddy 3+ year old fluid as they switch to a different type and attribute the improvement to the brand. This is not a valid comparison.

The C4 commonly experiences low clutch fluid or weak master or slave cylinders. When this occurs, the ZF synchros must absorb the force that is transmitted thru the clutch assembly which is not completely disengaging. This is the primary cause of ZF failure.


[Modified by Rick93Z07, 10:01 AM 12/24/2002]

Skipzoom

I've had good luck with MTL in everything form Porsches to Datsuns. If I remember right one of the Tech Tips said don't use MTL. Talk about confusing> :confused:

silver & red CE

I use Castrol 10W-60 synth. I replaced the 3 year factory lube with more of the same, my ZF was still stiff, esp in the cold. After a few months I switched to Castrol, but at the same time I installed a Hurst shifter. The combo is great.

Eric

Rick93Z07

ZF recommends ONLY: 1) GM service fill and 2) the euro-spec synthetic motor oil sold thru BMW. Red Line MTL is NOT tested or recommended by GM or the transmission mfr, namely ZF.

In the '80's, MTL was highly recommended by Red Line for use in all applications that use ATF. Owners installed it in their T-5 Mustangs and watched their '85 and up Borg Warner World Class carbon fiber blocking rings delaminate and fail. This is just one example of what can happen when you listen to Red Line's unsubstantiated claims & recommendations to use their uncertified lubricants. Red Line does NOT research, develop, test & optimize their products per industry standard American Petroleum Institute's API guidelines. Instead of verifiable quality, they rely upon sponsorship & racing hype to sell their products...you know, so & so uses it.

superlund

I told ya' this would start a blow out!

I've participated in club racing type events in the Midwest & know many well respected road racing folks, and most all of them use Redline or Neo products. We have used the stuff in Porsche 901 gear boxes for over 12 years now, every 914 I know uses it. I've used it to cure notchey shifting in all three generation's of RX-7 gearboxes.
No problems.. Not a single one...

When I decided to put Redline in the ZF I specifically asked if it would be an issue with sycnro's Etc. and as mentioned in the earlier post, if Bill @ ZR51 performance tells me it won't create a problem, I'll take his word for it...

And no Redline does not have the deep pockets that either ZF, GM or even Castrol has to continually update & certify every claim they make. so I guess your right you should probably just keep using Castrol/BMW who happens to advertise all over Europe with tons of "racing hype" or the stuff GM repackages & sells to ya' :cheers:

BTW; Merry Christmas Everyone!!!


[Modified by superlund, 9:54 AM 12/24/2002]

h rocks

Superlund, listen do whatever YOU want to do to YOUR ZF. The information that Rick offers is rock solid gospel. Period. I personally know two guys who trashed their ZF's with RL MTL. (e-dresses upon private request) I have also used with great success MTL in an MR2 and a '95 RX7 TT. Made a huge diff in the RX7. You may get away with using the MTL under less than demanding service in the ZF. I do know guys that have run it in weekend drivers without frying their trans. But I also know what well respected (then) mechanics,(now tuners) ran in the Corvette Challenge. It wasn't Redline or anything other than "factory fill". They could afford juice from the space shuttle if it would have been of benefit. Didn't do it.
Unless you are a religious ZF fluid changer you cannot make a valid observation in the "benefits" of switching out aged, condensated ZF trans fluid to new anything. Whether it's FF, Castrol, or RL, there will be a difference in how it shifts. The longevity of your gearbox is what's at stake. Mis-information of this type does NO Forum member any service. People are free to express their OPINIONS, but should not present them as gospel. In this case, I view it clearly as an OPINION. I am surprised to hear that the ZF doc actually "recommended" MTL. I could have sworn a couple of years ago that he either had no "official" recommendation except factory fill or now the Castrol stuff.

PeteL

Skipzoom,

I would hesitate using the TWS until you learn more about it's properties.

ZF recommended the formula RS (which is not GL3, it's a motor oil). I heard a rumor that the formula change was to remove a bunch of high pressure additives due to emission and/or enviornmental issues. IF this is the case, this could explain why ZF allowed this oil in the trans, and why it may not be a good idea to use the replacement! It's rumor only, I got it on one of the BMW boards, but use this information as you will.

BTW, Rick and h rocks are not busting your stones, they are trying to help.

Good Luck with your choice

Pete

superlund

h rocks, I have not told anyone that using "Redline is the gospel" only offered my "OPINION" as you like to say..I suggest you go back & read my comments and quit jumping to conclusions....

Like you say I am entitled to my opinion, and that's what I offered..

The only gospel I've seen offered in this thread was this;
“The information that Rick offers is rock solid gospel Period".
Do you recognize that statement?

Let’s just make my ZF the test case for using it;
Let's call it a "test bed" if you like. I'll be the first to honestly report any issue's I encounter... I'll even disassemble & provide pic's of any damage.

And yes I stand by the fact that I emailed Bill the "ZF Doc" & also called him during my clutch/flywheel install & asked if the Redline MTL would present any problems in the ZF, the response that I received was that it would not be a problem.

Again you jumped to conclusions by this statement;
"I am surprised to hear that the ZF doc actually "recommended" MTL."

No where in ANY of my earlier posts did I say he "recommended MTL" only that I was told by Bill that it would not create a problem & that it was OK to use in the ZF.

Quite frankly I would agree that 99.5% of the time neither you nor I could tell the difference between fresh Castrol/GM & Redline MTL.
I've always used it & am very happy with it in my ZF.

A funny thing is here in Wichita if you go to the local "high dollar" BMW
tuner (Import Auto Center) setting right there in the display case is Redline MTL, I asked the guy one time what they use it in - they put it in the BMW's with ZF transmissions....

Again don't take this personal & have a Merry Christmas. :)


[Modified by superlund, 2:08 PM 12/24/2002]

black bart

I put redline MTL in mine about four years ago I have not changed it and have no problems with my ZF. If it fails it will be from broken parts corckscrewed two driveshafts but the zf is still going strong :yesnod:

Mervz

If you look on the ZF Doc website, they have tested the TWS in the tranny and approve it. I've heard alot of good things about it as well. I recently picked some up myself. :yesnod:

PeteL

Found it, Thanks!

Looks like they like it.

Yello95

I changed fluid in my ZF6 transmission at 46,000(when i bought the car)and plan to change it every 20,000 miles from now on. ZF recommends it be changed every 30,000 miles. GM recommends every 100,000 miles. I use GM fluid as ZF recommends and I have had no problems. :thumbs: :D :cheers: :seeya

Rick93Z07

Superlund, this is a very straightforward topic. Perhaps discussing the reality of this lubricant non-compliance issue and dispelling race hype is "a blowout", as you describe it. Let the party balloons deflate, if appropriate:


It does not take deep pockets to properly test and certify a lubricant. In my opinion, if a lubricant has not been tested or certified to meet minimum specs it should not be utilized. Especially when there are other's to choose from. During my brief tenure in lubricant development (at the largest research and development facility east of the Mississippi), I watched many hopeful products (Synthetic, low ash etc) go back to the drawing board after failing just one aspect of comprehensive certification testing. These products would have otherwise slipped thru and been offered to "willing consumer guinea pigs". Quality lubricant development takes GOOD SCIENCE which includes necessary research, development, testing, optimization and finally certification. Go to Auto Zone, Sears, Walmart or Pep Boys and check a bottle of their cheapest $1 generic oil. Unlike Red Line, it will exceed API specs that have been mandated by ALL automotive mfrs since the 50's. Over 95% of the lubricants on the market have API certification and most have been tested to meet countless unique mfr, military and automotive specifications. American Petroleum Institute and special automotive and military specs are found on every product with certified quality. EVERY lubricant mfr with "confirmed quality" submits their products for API certification...from tiny Amalie to Wolf's Head.

Certain companies like Red Line prefer to skip critical lubricant testing, optimization and certification steps and use this funding for marketing purposes. They continually strive to receive "enthusiastic endorsement" from influential automotive press & racers thru monetary reward, free product and heavy sponsorship. This is a perfect example of corruption and BAD SCIENCE. NO THANKS.

Your ZF is not a suitable test bed to prove the suitability of Red Line. The failure rate due to lubricant misapplication or shortcomings may be one in a hundred & probelms may not surface for 200K miles. We can't perform laboratory-controlled durability, wear and failure comparisons on a single transmission either. We (you) have no standard (point of reference) to conclude anything. No doubt ZF has the most experience with this subject, since they designed, built and serviced them.


[Modified by Rick93Z07, 11:22 PM 12/24/2002]

superlund

Rick, I would have preferred Hrocks to step back in and apologize for jumping to conclusions & misquoting me earlier as he was way out of line but since you feel the need to come to his rescue...

I try to respect everyone's opinion, but I've noticed a disturbing trend on this forum of what I would describe as "attacks" by groups of mid-term members who seem to insist they know everything there is to know about a subject. The attacks begin the minute you post something like...
"I run Redline & love it"

I don't need a science lecture to understand the theory's behind test & result, if you happen to prefer GM/Castrol that’s great just put your "opinion" out there & let it be.

You know it's a real safe bet to say "use only the factory fill" but I can find that kind of info in any service manual, I don't really need some "know it all" on a forum to repeat it every time the subject comes up . But again I respect your opinion & the army of GM engineers & ZF engineers that you like to quote so much.

I sure hope you have not put a different shifter in that ZF because you know GM & ZF both advise against aftermarket shifters, and heaven forbid putting a SM flywheel in a ZF that was designed for a DM flywheel.

If your going to quote the factory on what fluids to use & not use then don't set a double standard and tell people it's ok to change other critical parts that were not certified by GM, ZF, API, such as shifters & flywheels.
My Hurst didn't have a single certification one on it anywhere, neither did my SM flywheel or my Spec clutch and they are all just as critical to the overall life of the ZF as the simple difference between Castrol & MTL trans fluid.


I had not been to Redline's web site: http://www.redlineoil.com/products.htm
in a while so I went their this evening and found this statement under technical info on Redline synthetic motor oils:
Satisfies warranty requirements of API SH/SG/SF/CE/CD/CC

And this under tech info on MTL:
MTL® Manual Transmission Lubricant
a 70W80 GL-4 gear oil (SAE 5W30/10W30 engine oil viscosity).

It appears to me they are both certified for use, the motor oils carry an API rating & the MTL carries a GL-4 unless of course I'm to believe Redline is "hyping" their statements to sell me more oil... :D

My ZF is just a suitable for use as a "test bed" as you are to offer up such matter of fact opinions, on everything from optisparks, to direct fire ignitions, without the facts in front of you... :smash:

Just remembered I had a bottle of MTL in the garage, so I took a couple pic's as you will note it say's "API GL-4 Gear Oil" so I guess that means you need to step up to the plate & make an open retraction about the erroneous statements you made about the API certifications of Redline products…






[Modified by superlund, 11:48 PM 12/24/2002]


[Modified by superlund, 11:51 PM 12/24/2002]

Rick93Z07

Superlund,

I stand by my posted opinion. Please put your hammer away and use your head. This is an attempt to clarify this situation for members...not attack, flame or offend.

Costly damage may occur when someone misapplies lubricants that are not properly certified for a particular application. Some folks here are recommending products that are not certified to exceed minimum specs. Shifters do not lubricate motors, transmissions and differentials & neither GM nor ZF has issued specifications for a replacement shifter or spark plug etc. I understand how certain folks display total indifference about lubes or how some may think lubes are like shifters. Many are unaware of ramifications. Some owners run the wrong lubes and blame GM for product defect when their car fails or wears out prematurely. Owners admitting use of uncertified products during GM or ZF warranty repairs have had to absorb financial losses. This applies to the use of improper lubes in Ford, BMW virtually all other vehicles.

Like many other's, it seems you have fallen into Red Line's marketing web of distortion, misinformation and misrepresentation. Red Line's "clever use of words" highly recommends their products for applications that require certain API ratings. They want you to wrongly assume their products are certified and they have surely achieved that. I have never seen an API label on their products and last I looked, their products were still NOT tested and certified. You might try the link below for the American Petroleum Institute. Sift thru the thousands of certified products or simly use their nifty search function. Take a close look at the "recognized" seals shown on API's site and note they are absent on Red Line packaging. If they've switched from hype & hot air -> industry-standard testing & certification (within the last year), I may buy some: ;)

http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs.cgi



[Modified by Rick93Z07, 2:34 PM 12/26/2002]

superlund

I'll accept that explanation,

I just don't appreciate being "flamed" and misquoted, because I never did recommend anything...

Did I ever jump in and say anything negative about the beloved Castrol or GM fluid? I never disagreed; I respected your opinion....

I have not been on this forum long, so I'm going to ask?
What's the deal with all of the Redline bashing here?

There is allot of their lube’s in use within the SCCA, and 95% of the SCCA people pay for everything "out of pocket" so if Redline lube's were ruining motors, trans, & rear's the owners would be working overtime at their day jobs to pay for the damage, how long do you think they would put up with that before dropping Redline?

I happen to be partial to the stuff because of their support of grassroots/amateur racing, not their "marketing web of distortion” I don't even use their motor oils, too much hassle to find locally on a moments notice.

I'll go on record "Castrol is good stuff" so is "Redline MTL" I've ran em' both & could not tell any difference...

And since you keep editing; I never had a "hammer out" you did....

:seeya



[Modified by superlund, 11:13 AM 12/26/2002]

Rick93Z07

Let me explain the so-called Red Line "bashing" more clearly. Personally, I like certain Red Line products for "genuine" competition racing. It's the recommendations to use uncertified lubricants for extended street use (in expensive sports cars, mind you) that are concerning.

Red Line was a "garage lab" that initially produced racing lubes to satisfy the unique priorities of racers. The halflife of these unique lubes is measured in hours, but they meet the needs of a group of folks who regularly rebuild their vehicles. Racers would gladly trade premature hardware wearout for a checkered flag ANY DAY. In fact, certain teams change out gears and other componentry EVERY RACE. These lubricants produce maximum RWHP AT ALL COST (as desired), but the tradeoff is they are worthless for extended interval use. These primitive lubes are unstable. They quickly degrade and break-down, so they aren't suitable for street use (>1000 miles). My ego, application and competitiveness does not compel me to use race lubes which would subject my engine to accelerated wear for a ~1-3 HP gain. Quality API synthetic street lubes are very close to a synthetic race lube with respect to RWHP.

In recent years, Red Line expanded their market to include street users. Sadly, they do not have the research, development, technology, testing, certification, mfg, budget or know-how to produce a completely tested product with a tightly integrated street-use additive packages & API certification. To be clear, a race lube does NOT make a good street lube. The incredible hype surrounding their race lubes has virtually obligated Red Line to sell products for street use. This was an opportunistic decision. Chevron and other subcontracter suppliers stepped up to the plate to blend street additive elixor packages for Red Line to augment their base products. You know, the world famous Chevron Chemical & their wonderful synthetic oils, not?? Unfortunately, additive packages must be developed, blended and thoroughly tested for each base product. Red Line & it's customers contend this method is sound without certification thru recognized standardized testing. Nah.

Market leading and leading-edge lubricant mfrs with certified products do not prescribe to this odd recipe. There are sound reasons for lubricant certification that have been known & recognized in the military, agricultural and automotive industries for 50+ years. No company is "too good" to certify their products...as certain loyal, largely ignorant Red Line street driver's claim.


[Modified by Rick93Z07, 3:02 PM 12/26/2002]