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Old 12-15-2002, 01:47 PM   #1
Lone Ranger
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Default Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures

They used a Visualiner system, for what its worth. Pep Boys.

Here are figures from the report, comments are welcome (tell me if it looks okay): (all figures in degrees) sorry about the tildes only way to get to format half way right for forum post


Left Front

~~~~~~MIN---spec---MAX~~~~BEFORE~~~AFTER

Caster 5.5~~~~~~ 6.5~~~~~~ 6.1~~~~~ 6.1

Camber 0.0~~~~~~ 1.0~~~~~ 0.2~~~~~ 0.1

Toe -0.10~~~~~ 0.10~~~~~~ -1.65~~~~ -0.05

SAI 8.8~~~~~~~~~~ 3.3~~~~~N/M

Included --- 3.5~~~~~ N/M
Angle

Max Turn --- --- ---

Right Front

~~~~~~MIN---spec---MAX~~~~~~BEFORE~~~~~AFTER

Caster 5.5~~~~~~ 6.5~~~~~~~ 6.6 ~~~~~~ 6.6

Camber 0.0~~~~~~~ 1.0 ~~~~~ 0.6~~~~~~~ 0.4

Toe -0.10~~~~~~ 0.10~~~~~~~ -1.80~~~~~ 0.00

SAI 8.8~~~~~~~~~~~ 4.9~~~~~~~ N/M

Included ---~~~~~~~~~~~ 5.5~~~~~~~ N/M
Angle

Max Turn --- --- ---

Left Rear

~~~~~~~MIN---spec---MAX~~~~~BEFORE~~~~AFTER

Camber -0.5~~~~~~~ 0.5~~~~ -0.2~~~~~ -0.2

Toe -0.10~~~~~~ 0.10~~~~~ -1.30~~~ 0.10

Right Rear

~~~~~~~MIN---spec---MAX~~~~~BEFORE~~~~AFTER

Camber -0.5~~~~~~ 0.5~~~~~~~ -0.1~~~~ -0.1

Toe -0.10~~~~~~ 0.10~~~~~~~ -1.30~~~ 0.05


~~~~~~~Front Rear

Total Toe -0.05 0.15

Set Back 0.4" ---

Track Width --- ---
Diff

Wheel Base
Diff --- ---

Thrust Angle --- 0.0

Camber Diff -0.3 -0.1

Caster Diff -0.5 ---

They didn't include the printout alignment report with my receipt and I had to ask for it.

It looks okay, but to me the rear wheels look pigeon toed, like they now have too much toe-in. Before they looked fairly parallel to the top of the rear fenders when looking down on them, now they have a noticeable toe-in appearance viewed top-down. Not sure if that's the way they're supposed to look or not but I suppose the printout doesn't lie (?)

The car feels a little more squirrely over bumps and rough pavement now.

I took it in because I knew the front had too much toe out, you could see it just looking.

Please let me know if the above report looks okay or not.

Cost was $54.99. I chose Sunday morning so as to get in and out quickly.


[Modified by Lone Ranger, 1:03 PM 12/15/2002]


[Modified by Lone Ranger, 1:06 PM 12/15/2002]
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Old 12-15-2002, 02:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: So I had a 4 wheel alignment done at Pep Boys this a.m... (Lone Ranger)

:cheers:
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Old 12-15-2002, 02:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: So I had a 4 wheel alignment done at Pep Boys this a.m... (corvette0096)

Quote:
:cheers:
So the figures look okay? I'm new at intepretting alignment values. :confused:
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Old 12-15-2002, 02:34 PM   #4
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

Your before toe-out on the rear was really excessive. The specs I've got call for a toe of 0 deg + or - .2 deg or from -0.20 to 0.20. So if your before was -1.30 and they looked right, you can see why they look like they are toed in now.

Over all I would say you got what you paid for... a decent alignment within the factory specified guides. I have my own specs that I like to use which is a cross between the advanced street and the track specs that Vette Brakes recommends. It normally costs around $200 to get a four wheel alignment for me.
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Old 12-15-2002, 03:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (96LT1)

Quote:
Your before toe-out on the rear was really excessive. The specs I've got call for a toe of 0 deg + or - .2 deg or from -0.20 to 0.20. So if your before was -1.30 and they looked right, you can see why they look like they are toed in now.
Question: Would the excessive toe-out I had before on ther rears cause the rear end to want to swing out more than it would stock toe settings, goosing it through a turn. Because the car before would easily swing the rear out a bit if you, say, goosed it slightly from a stop when turning onto a road from an intersection etc. Seems to squat and bite better now in same manuever with the new rear toe settings.

One thing is weird: Rear is raised up more after alignment job. extra 1/2" between tire tops and fender ridge, both sides. Can't figure that out since camber on rears was left alone and not changed. Its like when you've jacked it up to work on it and let it back down, how before you drive it sits higher until it settles from driving. I've driven it around after the alignment and still have the extra 1/2" of apparent rear height :confused:

Sorry for all the questions.



[Modified by Lone Ranger, 2:51 PM 12/15/2002]
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Old 12-15-2002, 04:39 PM   #6
seabright
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

From the '93 GM manual:

Front wheels: caster +6.0 +/- .5
camber + .5 .5
individual toe 0 .10

Rear wheels: camber 0 .5
toe 0 .1

Notes: based on coolant and fuel to capacity

There is considerably more data to alignment.

SOMETHING GOT LOST DURING TRANSMISSION--THE FIRST NUMBER IS THE SPEC, AND THE SECOND IS THE +/- VARIANCE.


[Modified by Oldman, 1:42 PM 12/15/2002]
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Old 12-15-2002, 06:16 PM   #7
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Oldman)

Well, I've been spending some time in the car driving it today.

I don't like the new feel at all.

It feels too squirelly over railroad crossings, bumps, etc. Feels like the rear end wags around over bumps. Very noticeably and somewhat unnerving. It doesn't want to wander in the traffic lanes or anything, just going over even light bumps it feels dodgey.

Going to have to take it back tomorrow and have it checked, and probably have some toe out put back in, but not beyond spec.

Probably shouldn't have taken it in on a Sunday. Might have gotten one of the less experienced guys for the job. :crazy:


[Modified by Lone Ranger, 5:17 PM 12/15/2002]
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Old 12-15-2002, 06:44 PM   #8
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

Craig, I am assuming that the alignment specs for my '93 are the same as your '95. If so, the GM manual makes some important notes: "Rear wheel alignment angles must always be set first to obtain proper alignment angles. When changing shims, open the hood. Close the hood when checking alignment settings. Toe must be checked after changing camber or caster". If these procedures are not being followed, maybe you should remind them. Good luck!
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Old 12-15-2002, 07:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

Quote:
Well, I've been spending some time in the car driving it today.

I don't like the new feel at all.

It feels too squirelly over railroad crossings, bumps, etc. Feels like the rear end wags around over bumps. Very noticeably and somewhat unnerving. It doesn't want to wander in the traffic lanes or anything, just going over even light bumps it feels dodgey.

Going to have to take it back tomorrow and have it checked, and probably have some toe out put back in, but not beyond spec.

Probably shouldn't have taken it in on a Sunday. Might have gotten one of the less experienced guys for the job. :crazy:
FWIW ~ been there, done that (in a sense)

First, if it doesn't feel right, then there's a good chance it is not!!

Re-checking it is a good idea, but it may not tell the whole story, especially if it's on the same equipment AND with the same technician. My personal experience with some of these "alignment experts" is they only know how to follow a set pattern, and if the machine says whatever, then that's what they do, without regard to using some basic intelligence and problem solving skills.

I've already been through one bad experience on wheel alignment in which the technician didn't have a clue on calibrating the equipment prior to making changes ... he ended up screwing up everything ... and since the machine was "correct" they refused to correct the problem. Any idiot could look at the car and see that the toe was totally off on the fronts. I was told that it would drift a little down the road but just "get used to it". No refund, no help, NO MORE BUSINESS FROM ME OR ANY OF MY FRIENDS EITHER :mad

Hope you get satisfaction where you had the job done ... but don't hesitate to seek out a technician who know Vettes. You'll be much happier in the long run.


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Old 12-15-2002, 07:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Oldman)

the combo i'm the most happy with is

front zero toe to a slight toe out, you can never get these things exact anyway so just fluttering between zero and out a tad.
front camber i take as much as i can get which is around 1 degree negitive, caster is a byproduct of this

rear toe is set at zero to slightly toed in, half a degree of negitve camber

drives very straight and is much better in hard corners than the stock settings.
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Old 12-15-2002, 07:10 PM   #11
Lone Ranger
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Oldman)

Quote:
Craig, I am assuming that the alignment specs for my '93 are the same as your '95. If so, the GM manual makes some important notes: "Rear wheel alignment angles must always be set first to obtain proper alignment angles. When changing shims, open the hood. Close the hood when checking alignment settings. Toe must be checked after changing camber or caster". If these procedures are not being followed, maybe you should remind them. Good luck!
Probably are ('93 vs. '95 procedures). I'll remind them tomorrow of the above. They promised to get me in with no wait after work, and said their 'best guy' is working tomorrow.

Maybe I got a trainee working solo today, being Sunday and all.
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Old 12-15-2002, 07:40 PM   #12
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

Quote:
They used a Visualiner system, for what its worth. Pep Boys.

no ofense to anyone but no way wold I trust my car to PeP Boys, or any other discount type place.

Grated, I paid 3 TIMES what you were charged ($150), but I KNOW it was done right by a shop that SPECIALIZES in Corvettes and stands behind tier work 100%

Since you car doesnt "feel right" to you, I would suggest that its NOT right.

Be careful though, dont assume that you local GM dealer can do any better, although he should.
I would question the technition about his experience with cars like yours, and be settled in your own mind that its gonna be a job well done.

I dont know where "stop light city" is :lol: , but Im sure there is a qualified alignment guy close by...............but be prepared to pay more than PepBoys charges.

good luck :seeya
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Old 12-15-2002, 09:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

Quote:
Well, I've been spending some time in the car driving it today.

I don't like the new feel at all.

It feels too squirelly over railroad crossings, bumps, etc. Feels like the rear end wags around over bumps. Very noticeably and somewhat unnerving. It doesn't want to wander in the traffic lanes or anything, just going over even light bumps it feels dodgey.

Going to have to take it back tomorrow and have it checked, and probably have some toe out put back in, but not beyond spec.

Probably shouldn't have taken it in on a Sunday. Might have gotten one of the less experienced guys for the job. :crazy:


[Modified by Lone Ranger, 5:17 PM 12/15/2002]
Mine felt the same way after I raised the rear up about a 1/2 inch. Of course that was after I lowered it. It felt fine until I hit bumps and railroad tracks. It felt like the rear was going to bounce me sideways. When I lowered it back, it was fine again. But before I lowered it back, I took a look at the angle from the rear view, and the top of the tire look just slightly angled out more at the top. Actually it almost looked like it was perfectly straight up and down. But I heard the top of the tire should slightly angle in, SLIGHTLY! G/L :cool:


[Modified by 1SLO POK, 5:52 AM 12/16/2002]
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Old 12-15-2002, 09:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures

I like the vette brakes advanced street settings for my '94. When you go tomorrow, see if you can watch learn a bit about what they are doing. since they made such a significant change to the rear toe, it is clear that you are seeing a night and day difference from how it was before. Yet, I never really noticed the rears on mine "angle in" as you described. That could well be the whole problem. Keep us informed.

Ken
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Old 12-15-2002, 11:58 PM   #15
grapeknutz
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

Quote:
Well, I've been spending some time in the car driving it today.

I don't like the new feel at all.

It feels too squirelly over railroad crossings, bumps, etc. Feels like the rear end wags around over bumps. Very noticeably and somewhat unnerving. It doesn't want to wander in the traffic lanes or anything, just going over even light bumps it feels dodgey.

Going to have to take it back tomorrow and have it checked, and probably have some toe out put back in, but not beyond spec.

Probably shouldn't have taken it in on a Sunday. Might have gotten one of the less experienced guys for the job. :crazy:

Just a thought, you might want to rotate your tires because they now will handle different because they are "set" to the other aligment.
[Modified by Lone Ranger, 5:17 PM 12/15/2002]
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Old 12-16-2002, 12:04 AM   #16
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (grapeknutz)

could be the tires, even though some people like to think vettes are special and desirve high priced shops, theres really nothing to it. the car took me & a friend of mine less than a hour to do on a hunter rack. the other thing is these cars move all over the place if you wiggle em. if you drove it up on the rack right now you'd probably get different numbers than the sheet. might not be a bad idea really, the rear suspension won't be anywhere near accurate if they raised and lowered it. drive it up & get a baseline and go from there. if the car feels squirmy dial in more negitive camber !! you have next to none as it is & that's if i assume your posted numbers mean negitive.
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Old 12-16-2002, 08:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (gtsyellow)

I snapped some pics of the rear wheels, to show how they appear (to me) to toe-in to much when looking down from above the fender:

right rear:


Click the image to open in full size.


Left rear:

Click the image to open in full size.


Before the alignment they appeared more parallel to the top of the fender.
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Old 12-16-2002, 12:04 PM   #18
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

I don't want to sound insensitive to your pain but I would have never taken it PEP Boys to begin with. I don't know where you live but there has to be a better place.
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Old 12-16-2002, 12:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (Lone Ranger)

The fastest way to check the toe in is to get along piece of string or if you can a tape measure and measure the center distance at the back side of the tire then measure the front side center this will give you a rough idea what the toe in or out is
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Old 12-16-2002, 07:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Request comment on these 4 wheel alignment figures (gtsyellow)

UPDATE:

Just got home from 2nd trip to Pep Boys. The svc mgr was cool about it and when I had called him about the problem he said to bring it by right after I get off work, they would get me right in and have their most experienced tech double check it. When I parked it the svc mgr went out with me and looked down at the rear wheels from above the fender. He agreed that it looked like excessive toe-in. When they finished the tech asked me if I had yesterday's alignment printout report, I said yeah, its laying on my kitchen table where I forgot to grab it before I left!" Anyhow, he asked what the 'after' toe values were fgor the rear if I remembered, and I told him 0.10 left and 0.05 right, from memory. He said that when they checked it on the machine it showed like 1.85 degrees toe-in right rear and 0.5 degrees toe-in left rear before they re-did it :eek:

He and the svc mgr seemed annoyed, but not at me... maybe at the tech that worked on it yesterday. Anyhow, svc mgr told me to drive it around and call him asap with how it felt.

She felt 100% better. Stability over rough pavement and bumps is restored and she feels good now. The rears don't look nearly as pigeon toed now. Slightly off parallel from the fenders but not as pronounced as yesterday. Yesterday accelerating into a turn from an intersection onto the crossing road suspension squatted down markedly on the inner wheel as if binding, now she does it right with a some tire slip or some ASR engagement if just a little aggressive and not much squat-down on that side, if any.

When I parked her in the garage I immediately checked the ride height all around and she is sitting pretty once again, like she did before yesterday-- proper height between fender ridge and top of outer tread on both fronts and rears. :cheers:

Looks like the guy yesterday just didn't do it right and the other guy tonight had to clean up the mistake. Called the svc mgr and told him it feels okay. He apologized for the inconvenience, and I told him no big deal just might need to give lastnight's tech some more training on the Visualiner 3D machine. :yesnod:

Based on tonight's printout report new specs are:

0.05 degrees left rear, -0.05 degrees toe right rear. Camber left rear didn't change (0.1 and 0.1 degrees) and for right rear went from 0.1 degree to 0.0 degrees. Left front camber values went from 1.1 degrees camber before to 0.6 now, with right front from 0.3 before to 0.7 now. Toe for left front went from 0.0 before to -0.10, with right front toe going from 0.00 degrees before to 0.05 now. Camber for left front went from 1.1 degrees to 0.6, and for right front 0.3 degrees to 0.7 now. :cool:
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Old 12-16-2002, 07:26 PM
 
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