C409

....... For the sake of discussion ... What scientific explanation can be given for the superior performance advantage of the LS-based engines vs. our old stuff ? ....... keep it factual , and real ... What do they have that we don't and why can't we do that too ? .........

AgentEran

Well for starters LS stuff has 14* valve angles.. also has 6 bolt main caps..

C4in mesa

All aluminum block and heads !

cv67

-Entire block architecture is strong as an ox + listed above items
-Superior igniiton/fuel delivery/tuning;better firing order
With those 2 alone is how you can take stock bottom ends and put a lot of power through them
-Intakes (esp a well worked aftermarket) move TONS of air while still having a longish runner
-Head size is pretty large but still have good air speed
-The ability to change cams without having to remove lifters. Course the heads have to come off to change those lol
-Light valve train means a HR canbe spun up with some rpm
O ring seals....no leaks!

Gm did a lot of the hot rodding for us with these.
Simple TB/intake and exh mods really really wakes them up.
One day Ill actually be able to afford one. Maybe

PArts are getting cheaper. One can do a 400+ci stroker and easily get over 600NA and drive it from state to state.

My gen 1 is a dinosaur

MavsAK

Don't forget the heads which, Stock are as good as AFRs are for Gen 1 and 2s. Let alone aftermarket LSX heads that are a step above the factory units.

C409

..... We can get 18* heads for Gen I ... main caps contain power , but don't make any ...........

C409

..... We can do that too! ............. What is LS SPECIFIC that makes power ? .........

C409

..... You're on to something here ... intake and cylinder head design ..... All the rest is available to us ... or , doesn't MAKE power ............

C409

..... Heads ... Yes , this one of their secret weapons ... BUT , we can get pretty much the same results if we spend the same amount of money .... Have you priced LSx aftermarket heads ? whew! ...........

C409

..... The block doesn't matter ... the big HP guys use the iron LSx block anywho ... we have Brodix , Rodeck , and Dart for aluminum .......... we have SHP , Little M , Motown for iron ... the cranckcase doesn't MAKE power ... My Little M has 4bolt mains at all five places ........ it just helps to contain power ... Now , There are some very definite architechtural advantages to the LSx that we might find cost prohibitive if not impossible to achieve for our Gen I's ... But I think we can still kick some hi-tech butt by learning from them ...... Camshafts ? we can get any grind they can ...
..... Cuisinart is on to something , he mentioned ignition and fuel delivery , better firing order , AND intakes ... this all helps them a lot , but we need to do the same ... Coil on plug stuff is available , so is sequential fuel injection ... my current build will have both via a moderately priced aftermarket controller..... 4 - 7 switch cams change our firing order .....
..... INTAKE Manifold ..... our puny TPI intakes paved the way toward the development of tuned runner intake manifolds ... I believe this is the mother lode .......... Take a good look at the guts of a FAST LSXR & LSXRT intake manifold ... I got a good look on www.lsxtv.com ... Search FAST LSXR Review ... Oh ! and check the price tag too !

Tom400CFI

Also cam diameter is larger = more aggressive ramp rates available.

Phat98

Debating this same argument myself...glad you stepped up and asked the questions.

C409

..... There are a LOT of design improvements in the LSx engines that make it easier or more convenient to achieve power goals ... but I'm not looking for a list of features ... I want to know why they come out of the box with so much power ... AND I want to know how to replicate that on a Gen I , without breaking the bank ...........

C4in mesa

My friend back east who drag races says his block is one soid piece of aluminum that has been milled. He said the block cost $20K or in that ballpark. Yes I know drag racing is VERY weight specific.

T. Wayne Nelson

I have sequential fueling, with the aftermarket ECMs we actually have a better ECM than OBD2. I have AFR heads that flow around 300, I have a mini-ram, but I think that the intakes are a bottleneck compared to LS motors. Going back to 14 degree heads, I have to ask myself if flow is flow, or is there an advantage to the 14 degree heads. An intake like the LS motors would be an improvement worth having. If I am looking at my 406 motor vs an LS1, I would say the LS1 is a better designed motor, but with the right stuff you can make a gen 1 motor stand up and bark. I would go back to intake, gen 1 motors need a better intake.

C409

..... I found a Jeff Davis polished sheet metal LSx intake on LS1Tech for $5K ... of course that includes a polished throttle body ... .....

T. Wayne Nelson

I think with 5K you could drop in a LS motor, problems solved.....

MavsAK

I think the best we can do with ours is Equal a ported factory head from an LSX.
The heads for the LSX are expensive yes, but they are definitely crazy. Also tom mentioned cam diameter and ramp rates which is another huge boon. We also don't have the cathedral shaped intake ports.

As far as aluminum Gen 1 and 2 blocks go, have you seen the price of one of those blocks? I can buy a complete running LSX that comes with a warranty for the price of just the price of the gen 1 and 2 block. Throw in the rest of the shortblock, and I can probably find a T56 to be mated to the LSX with some $ to spare.

Throw in the heads, and cam, and intake on the gen 1 and I can for just a little more $ find a supercharger for the LSX. Definitely could find at least a cam, headers, and tune for the $ of the top end to be mated to this hypothetical gen 1 aluminum build.

I love my TPI, I think it's the second best looking engine GM has ever built (the first being the LT5), but at the end of the day I know even if I went with a miniram, or HSR and built it up, dollar per dollar spent, I can do better if I went with an LSX swap. The Gen1s I think sound meaner than an LSX and I think with the TPI certainly look better, but beyond that it's really an outdated engine.

Something else to consider is if you threw a rod through the block of your aluminum gen 1/2 block. You have to pay it all over again. Tuning is also becoming a pain to get done for these cars, with an LSX if something goes wrong you can easily find another block to replace it, or hell another running engine, and then sell the parts you don't need to recoup costs.

C409

..... This is not an opinion gathering quest , its an educational thread that's looking for hard scientific evidence which proves how the LS motors are more powerful ... I know that they are better ... I want to know how and why .............

Slammed337

After driving a stock lt1 corvette and a mild modded lt1 corvette, both 6 speeds, and having a FRC vette in stock and modded form. I like my lt1 but the ls1 is just more bang for buck.
Ls1 with exhaust,intake, cam and tune will make 400rwhp easily,
Where as lt1 needs ported heads added and some fuel upgrades to make that power.