SEA4

Figured I'd consolidate the last thread in to this one with the symptoms and whats been done so far..

The Background:

1991 Coupe, L98 automatic, 2 female owners (both corvette nuts who are multiple Vette owners and who maintained the car perfectly)

Owner 1 had it from new till 1997 when it had 51,500 on it
Owner 2 had it till this week when I bought it with 59,595

The car has been parked under cover (but not garaged) for the last 2 years due to no start condition. SHe stated it did nothing, no crank, no click.

What I've done:

Tried to jump it at her house and it started briefly and I shut it down immediately.
It had 3/4 tank of gas so on the way home towing it, I put about 6 gallons of premium in to top it off, and added 2 cans dry gas.
Towed it the rest of the way home to slosh it all around and tried to jump it again here.
It fired up again briefly but died, and hasn't run since.

I installed a new battery, checked the air intake for mice / nuts etc and all that looks new.
The oil is full and crystal clear, the coolant is green and good to 22 below zero.

When I turn the key forward I do hear something running for 2 seconds then it stops that I'm assuming is the fuel pump (but its not a loud whine like Fords I've had)

Also should mention I pushed in the pin on the valve on the fuel rail and got gas coming out, but didn't seem like it was under 40 psi.. it more 'oozed' out.


Today I got some starting fluid, pulled the intake hose aside and sprayed a bit in the intake.. Car fired instantly and ran smooth till the starting fluid ran out.

I did that 3 more times, each with the same result, but it won't start/run on its own.


So it appears I have spark and I have a motor that will run fine..


So either I have low fuel pressure, or my gas is junk..

Next step is to get a fuel pressure gauge and check it at the rail, correct?

(I really dont want to have to siphon out a full tank if I don't have to)


~Kev Schofield~
1991 Turquoise Coupe
1989 Red 6-speed Z51 (Sold)
1973 White 4-speed (Sold)

lespaul4563

The 2 second motor is the antenna.

joe paco

hard to tell. if radio is off it should not activate, should it?

if you want to see if FP will work, jump terminal G on the acdl to a 12 v wire. but the gage should tell you. of course, FP fuse at btm rt of fuse box should be checked.

SEA4

Not the antenna.. Radio is off.
(I turned the radio on and the antenna makes a louder clunkier 'whir' as the antenna goes up.

The sound I'm getting is coming from the rear but its more muffled, and more quiet.

I did check the fuse in the main fuse box.. it was good.

I'm going to get a FP gauge tomorrow..


On a happy note, I fixed the shift/key lock so I can get the key out of the ignition now.
I moved the shift bezel up out of the way and cleaned the mechanism with WD40.
Took a few minutes of working it, but the button on the shifter works like new now.

-js-

Getting to the fuel pump and tank is alot eaiser than most vehicles.
On the vette you go throught the filler area.
Why question the fuel get that old gas out.
If the drain is plugged in the fill area you probably got water in the tank from the rain.

leesvet

A car thats been stored can collect alot of condensation in the tank if it was not topped off. If it was not stabilized, the fuel goes flat as well. Pumps starve when the crud blocks the strainer/sock and ruins them. People forget that when they have a plugged fuel filter, all that trash had to go thru the pump to get there....

Dump the tank, change the filter and sock. test pressure, good if its steady at 40 psi idle or jst KEY ON. Key ON runs the pump 2 seconds until the dist sends a reference signal to the ECM to ok more pump run time. The 2 sec is to prime the rails/inj.

car will still start if FP relay is bad. It has a back-up switch that operates on oil pressure....as it cranks 4 psi closes this switch and sends power to the pump.
Once you get fresh fuel in, only add a few gal and add some LUCAS inj cleaner. Techron works too. Avoid the $1.99 stuff..its just paint thinner.

Those injectors are sure to be jelly filled as well. Each inj has a screen that catches the goop in bad fuel..

PS....
don;t spray starting fluid in motors with aluminum pistons...they break from the severe knocking.

SEA4

I appreciate all the good advice and thoughts on this matter..

Looks like I'll be draining the tank and lines this weekend..

Do Chevy dealers stock the sock? or is there a good online place to get it quick?

Thanks again~

SEA4

Just back from the parts store..

Got a transfer pump, a new fuel pump sock, a fuel filter and some Techron.

This will be a fun afternoon

joe paco

I don't believe the old gasoline is your problem. Sock, maybe, but not likely unless it was there at the time it first stopped, 2 yrs ago.

A fuel problem is at the fuel rails, when an engine only runs for 2 secs, not sediment or bad gas at the pump. I don't think it would have travelled to the injectors no more than you have cycled it. You are never certain you have fuel pressure until you check it.

I have had vehicles that were only started a couple times a year, no fresh gas added, for close to four years. Put that gas in your lawn mower, if it shows no water, and it should run fine.

I would list all the most likely root causes, and go from there. Whatever caused it to shut off/no crank/no click didn't cure itself sitting idle for 2 yrs. The issue is that it only runs for a couple seconds, not rough/sputtering, etc. The old fuel is just one possibility of a dozen or more.

SEA4

So far I've taken 2 full 5 gallons cans of 'liquid' out of the tank..

The first 5 gallons didn't even remotely smell like gas and was pretty much clear.
Second can is smelling more like gas and has some amber color to it..

No doubt, tons of water in there..

I think the reason it ran twice was due to decent gas being in the fuel rail the very first time I started it after it sat for 2 years.. it fired with that gas and I shut it down very quickly..
When I got it home and tried again, it fired again then sputtered out after a few seconds.. probably due to sucking water at that point.

I'm almost certain the reason it wouldn't start 2 years ago is because the woman that owned the car somehow screwed up the VATS and the car did nothing.. no click, no nothing..
so the car sat till I jumped it at her house and she was quite shocked it turned over, never mind fired right up.

I'm headed out to take out the fuel pump next and see what shape the inside of the tank and the pump is in..

1991Z07

Same type of issues with mine a few months ago...

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-t...eshooting.html

Read...and pay attention. Getting all the water out of the lines and fuel rail isn't as easy as you'd think. Once done...you'll be happy with it!

SEA4

Thanks.. glad to know someone else has gone through the same issue and had good end results..


Couldn't work more on mine tonight but I got as much as I possibly could out of the tank with a small hand pump siphon..moved the hose in the tank all over the ploace till I couldn't get any more.

Tomorrows plan is this:

Remove the fuel filter and use the fuel pump to pump out anything else it will.

Remove the fill neck/fuel pump assembly and clean it out, replace the sock.

Clean the rest of the inside of the tank as I'm sure theres a bit hiding here and there but I'll be able to see it and deal with it once the pump is off.


My question now is concerning whats between the filter and the injectors..

Taking the filter off and letting gravity do its thing should drain a lot of whats up high in the front, but I know I'll need to make sure its as cleaned out as possible.. Once it stops dripping, what will happen if I use compressed air on the main feed hose at the filter connection? will it blow up through the fuel rails and back out to the end of the return hose?

What is the 'sending unit' you mention powering up.. The fuel pump?
(just want to make sure there isn't something else that has the potential to hold water)

Once everything is as clean and 'blowed out' as possible, I'll put a new fuel filter in, reinstall the pump assembly and add some premium..
Once it fires up and seems liek it'll tun, I'll add a can of Techron and run that through too.


I'm hopeful I won't have to do injectors.. The car started on its own Saturday then quit, I'm assuming once the water got there.


I tore down my 89 TPI to the short block when I had that to freshen the heads, replace the injectors, powder coat stuff etc... I'm really hoping to NOT do that again LOL..


Thanks again for the heads up~

1991Z07

Replies are in RED...

pologreen1

I had my car sitting for a few years with same gas and it started, I don't say it's good or a good idea, but it was untreated and still worked. I think people put too much emphasis on the age of gas. I don't think the fuel is your problem unless it made clogs somewhere; which I was afraid of with mine.

SEA4

I dont either now.. its the gallons of water I found in the tank

SEA4

Close, but no cigar yet...

Got the fuel pump out and completely cleaned tank inside till it was dry.

Used compressed air to blow through the feed line till all the 'liquid' stopped coming out the return line.
(then a few minutes later blew it out again and got a few little sputters of liquid..
repeated a couple more times till I had nothing but air coming out the return)

Drained the fuel pump, and replaced the sock with a new one.

Replaced the fuel filter (only a drip or 2 came out of that after the compressed air procedure)


Put in 5 gallons of premium and a can of Techron.

Turned the key forward, heard the fuel pump run and stop so I let it crank..

after four or five 5 second cranks it sputtered.. cranked again and let it crank for 10 seconds while the car fired on 1 or 2 cylinders..

Did it one more time and it caught and roared to life (but felt like it was on maybe 6 cylinders) to the point where I could release the key and it kept running on its own..revved it up to 3500 or so and it went up there and then slowly died down and stopped even though I didn't change throttle position.

Now it won't start again.. I gave it a couple tries but got nothing.


I'm a little discouraged.. I really thought I did everything I needed to do and the car would run.

Supposed to rain tomorrow so I won't get much more troubleshooting done..

joe paco

the water in the tank had to be dealt with, no other way around that. But I never believed that was the immediate problem, as I said. for no more than you had run the engine, the water should have been still in the tank, or in the line.

from your description, it gradually ran out of fuel, or became too rich to fire. or slowly ran out of spark -if that is even possible.

I don't see how the "no crank" issue would have resolved itself sitting over time. it may be normal for the ecm, but I don't know for sure.

you said you "got nothing." that means a lot of things to different people. if I am the mechanic, I would need more explicit descriptions, relay clicks, solenoid clicks, lights dim, whatever.

I am simply trying to follow logic, but I wondered if the original problem is not still here.

at least you know what it is not. if you recall precisely what the woman told you about the first time it happened, that's a clue. ex, the engine stopped? or she stopped it and it didn't restart, etc?

if you haven't done it, ck for codes. I have the 91 fsm if you need something.

joe

SEA4

Thanks Joe..

The original symptom was this..

She was driving around fine one day and pulled in to her driveway and shut the car off. She went inside for lunch, came back out and the car did not start. I asked her specifically what happened..if there was a click, if there was cranking but no running and she said it 'did nothing..no crank, no click, just silence like the battery wasn't connected when she turned the key'

She called AAA and they came to jump it and had exactly the same result.. wouldn't crank, just dead when the key was turned.

She doesn't recall if the security light was blinking, or if the dash lights were on.

When I went to look at it (2 years later) she said nobody had touched the car since then. Battery was stone cold dead. I cleaned the chip on the key, hooked up jumpers and turned the key forward to run (but not start yet) and noted that the security light stopped flashing and the dash lit up. I turned the key forward to start and the car cranked and fired up. I shut it right down.

I bought the car, towed it home and once it was on the ground here I did the same thing.. Cranked it and it fired but only ran for 3 or 4 seconds and died.

I didn't have a clue at that point that there was water in the tank..I figured maybe bad gas. I put a new battery in the car, checked air intake, sprayed starting fluid in there and it fired again, but only ran a moment on the starting fluid.

Thats when the water in the tank issue came to light and I went through the whole procedure above to deal with that.


I'll look up how to pull codes but I doubt anything will be in there since the car sat dead for 2 years I just put in a new battery.. Maybe though, can't hurt to check.

Not raining yet so I'll try to get out there at lunchtime~

cv67

Maybe I missed it, did you check fuel pressure at the rail? FP could be weak.
As far as missing could be a number of things.

Try getting the ohms reading on the injectors if you can get the motor warm.

How does it run with the MAF disconnected
Check CTS sensor, 02 Sensor. may not have liked the water
Check TPS voltage, IAC function vacuum leaks the basics.
Youll get it, just be patient and keep fooling with it.

joe paco

he has the MAP, but result is the same.

CTS -coolant temp sensor- should set a code, 14 or 15, if 14 can cause rich condition. the old data is not in ccm but new failures are or should be..

it doesn't miss, as I understood it, just shuts down, then "no crank no click," if I follow the words. OP needs to explain "nothing."

it's possible that the two falure modes -shuts itself down and then no crank- are unrelated, but not probable. will require a lot of thinking. maybe someone has the answer already.

joe