lambremont

Why don't we run Magnetos instead of distributors?

Watching the Drags and wondered.

87 vette 81 big girl

I have used Magnetos in the past on the street and drag racing.

Vertex Magnetos.

They generate their own High Tension/ Voltage without an external battery for a power source.

They use a permanent magnet rotor and fixed poles with a primary and secondary coil(s) assembly. And most use a mechanical breaker point system.

Magnetos are usually used for high end racing engines like Alcohol powered Funny Cars, Top Fuel, and Dirt Circle Track Race Cars.

I believe Magnetos are the ultimate Ignition system. Many or most would disagree with me.

But 99.999% of Piston Powered Airplanes use a Magneto Ignition System to this day.

Every American WW2 Bomber Plane and Fighter planes used Magneto Ignition Systems.

If You Lose an alternator, Battery, or have total Battery powered ignition system failure in the sky flying. You wont be flying for long, you are going down for a crash landing. And probably die because you lost your ignition system.

The faster you spin a magneto, the Higher Voltage output It Creates. And has a Very Long Duration Spark, 30-40 CRANKSHAFT DEGREES.

Where a MSD Ignition System has a spark Duration of 20 CRANKSHAFT DEGREES.

Magnetos are not allways 100% percent reliable on the street for the general public because it can be difficult to start a large V-8 engine with Moderate to High Compression (9.5-12:1).

If the battery is not fully charged, or the starter is unable to spin the engine at least 160 Flywheel RPM, the Magneto will not put out enough output voltage to fire across the spark plugs to start the engine.

I have used Vertex Mags in my other cars, not my 87 Corvette. I can tell you that at 9,000RPM's, the Magneto keeps firing without any misfire at all.

I would like to use a Vertex Magneto in my 1987 Vert some day. I have spare Chevy Drive Vertex mags ready to go.

Problem is using it with the Factory L-98 Tuned Port Fuel Injetion and Factory ECM.

I would have to loose the factory ECM and Purchase a STAND ALONE SYSTEM LIKE A "FAST XFI" SYSTEM. THEN CUSTOM PROGRAM IT TO WORK CORRECTLY WITH A VERTEX MAGNETO. I talked to a few in the past about this.

It can be done.

But on the street it has little advantage over a good working Factory GM HEI.

I will add a Vertex magneto to my 87 Vert someday just because I love the Old School Vertex Magneto, how it performs, and how it looks.

Magnetos are not for everyone.

Work best on Alcohol - Nitro Methane powered cars.

Nothing lights Nitro Methane Fuel like a Magneto.

MSD standard spark boxes just wont get the job done.

Any Nitromethane fuel powered race car owner will tell you the same.

Magnetos have much more secondary Current and long duration sparks.

What You need to light off Nitromethane Properly and Win !

I work on Magnetos in my spare time. Have all the special tools to service and rebuid them. Do many for circle track racers. A few drag racers. And for myself.

Look me up if you need a Magneto repaired down the road.

Its almost a lost skill overhauling Magnetos and setting them up for racing use.

BR

jfb

Spark advance cannot be controlled electronically with magnetos which is a serious requirement for modern engines. Spark energy is constant with HEI ignition. Rise time (the time for voltage to rise to the ignition voltage, in microseconds) is much much faster with HEI ignition and very small rise time can fire carbon fouled spark plugs which magneto igntion cannot do.

Midnight 85

Like 87vette, I have ran magnetos in a couple different cars. My old Vega when I was actively drag racing and my Crower injected 454 Chevelle. As far as I am concerned there is no better ignition system FOR A RACE CAR! But,as jfb pointed out they just don't have a place in todays electronically controlled daily drivers.

ddahlgren

This is wrong MSD has a mag that can be electronically controled.

87 vette 81 big girl

A magneto ignition system works best at speeds above 4,000 Crankshaft RPM's. And Keep Firing to speeds above 10,000 RPM's if Setup Properly/ Custom Built.

Most of our Corvettes seldom see non stop continues speeds above 4,000 RPMs on the street. Makes little sense to run a magneto ignition system.

There is also the problem of RFI interference. A Magneto puts out alot of RFI Noise that can affect the Engines Computer System or shut it down suddenly.

From Personal Experience, Vertex Magneto Ignition Systems shine above speeds 4,000RPM's and nothing else works like it at 7,000-10,000RPM's.

A Vertex Magneto has no electronics to fail either. Vertex magnetos have been used in Piston Powered Airplanes. MSD Ignitions havent, at least not legally by the FFA.

I have seen dozens of MSD spark box failures in the last 5 years. Guys want me to fix them. No thank you. Just worn out junk. lol

A Properly setup magneto wont let you down. But it has to maintained properly on ocassion by an expert like myself.

A Vertex Magneto properly Maintained will provide over 50 Years of Service. NO MSD box will survive that long.

BR

jfb

MSD ignition is NOT a magneto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reading AND comprehension are fundemental, try it sometime.

87 vette 81 big girl

Lol. I dont mean to Burst Your Bubble................

MSD does indeed make Magnetos too............

They got into the magneto business around 2005.

Take a look at any Top Fuel dragster of Funny Car. Chances are they have a Pair of MSD Pro Mag 44's on each.

Daul Plug(16) Hemi heads on top of that Keith Black, Donovan, or TFX Aluminum Engine Block

The MSD Pro Mag 44 puts out 44 amps of current from the Generator Head into the Ignition Transformer.

From there 2 Amps Of High Voltage Current is Delivered to each spark plug.

MSD also Makes a Pro Mag 12 and Pro Mag 12LT series magnetos.

The 12 & 12 LT are usually used in the 410 CI Winged Warrior Dirt track
cars.

Normaly aspirated, alcohol fueled, direct port cylinder head injected, and making over 900 HP.

These cars travel a 1/4 mile oval dirt track in or around 10 seconds.

They have to brake for the corner turns and slow down then speed up on turn exit.

Or they could run much faster.

MSD does offer an optional timing box with ignition retard to with any of their magnetos.

A pair of MSD Pro Mag 44's ready to run on a Top Fuel Car will cost you around $10,000. $5,000 each.

Not for man without serious racing money funds.

87 vette 81 big girl

There is ONE Huge Difference with a Magneto Ignition system few know.

Magnetos, all magnetos generate and deliver AC/ Alternating Current to an engines spark plugs.

All HEI style, MSD spark boxes, and ignition coil pack - waste spark systems generate DC/ direct current to the Spark Plugs.

Its bull that an HEI ignition has a faster rise time than a Magneto and a Magneto will not fire fouled spark plugs

A magneto will fire a spark plug submerged into a container of oil. Clean or flithy dirty oil.

An HEI wont.

HEI's suck at firing Fuel, oil, and carbon fouled spark plugs. I know from personal experience using HEI's. And my friends do too.

I have a SUN Distribuator Machine I modified that will spin a Vertex Magneto to 10,000 crankshaft RPM's. Along with a Snap On CRT Ignition Oscilloscope.

I built my own custom Spark Gap Rack. I can check all 8 cylinders Visually firing. A hot running Vertex magneto will jump a spark nearly 2 inches long at 4,000 Crankshaft RPMs. And do it for Hours on end without failing.

A HEI or other Ignitions wont.


I have tested many Hours.

Hard to beat a Vertex Magneto for all out Racing use for a little guy wanting to win races.

jfb

The spark waveform is essentially the same for magnetos and HEI. HEI pulses the spark coil from the battery, a magneto pulses the spark coil from a moving magnet and points that open the primary of the spark coil (older magnetos) or with an electronic circuit (modern magnetos). HEI AND magnetos both use a spark coils to generate high voltage, so both systems should have the same reliability for generating spark for hours on end. My 87 vette has 238,000 miles on it with one spark control module replaced. Modern magnetos have a similar electronic circuit as the HEI spark control module. For reliability, neither system has an edge, they both have transistor modules and spark coils. Both systems have the same rise time so both systems have the same ability to spark through fouled plugs. A magneto spark energy increases with rpm while an HEI system has constant energy regardless of rpm.

ddahlgren

Quit useing a Summit or Jegs catalog as an encyclopedia. Google is your friend.. sigh.. Yes reading is fundimental and suggest you try it before flaming.. Ok back to reading mode rather than writing..

jfb

ok!

lt4red

I don't trust 'em, sure he's powerful with the magnetic fields, but he seems to only care about mutant rights, and will destroy any normal human that gets in his way. He was friends with Professor X however........

87 vette 81 big girl

You need to use a Magneto such as a VERTEX once Yourself Racing.

Not in Your 1987 Corvette that Might see 5,000 RPM's once in a great while driving around.

And spin test a HEI distribuator and a Hot Running Vertex Magneto With a Good CRT Ignition Oscillscope Hooked up to each.

As low as 50 Crankshaft RPMs a Magneto starts working. By 160 RPM's A Magneto Throws out a Very Hot Blue spark(s). By 4,000 RPM's There is no Contest with a Good GM HEI or MSD 6 or 7 Box against a Vertex Magneto.

By 7500 RPM's a HEI starts to peter out with a good aftermarket coil, aftermarket ignition module and blueprinting.

A stock GM HEI starts dieing out at 5,000 RPM's.

At 8,000RPMs the heavy GM HEI Rotor explodes apart and goes right through the distribuator cap.

At 10,500 RPM's a Vertex Magneto keeps on firing.

The Noise from the Magneto and Spark Plug Gap rack Set at 1 inch air gap on all 8 cylinders is Like Roaring Thunder and Lighting together non stop.

A GM HEI sounds like a Mosquito flying around the air buzzing by your ear. At all speeds.

No contest.

A Vertex magneto does not use transistors or a black box controller.

It uses a Very Precision made Breaker cam and Platinum triple spring Points. All Mechanical and electromagnetic induction at work.

Very Old school technology. But has never been surpassed yet.

You disagree. Thats Ok.

If GM HEI's are so great, why dont they use them in all Top Fuel Dragsters, Funny Cars, and Piston Powered Propeller Air crafts ?

Answer that question for me and others here on Corvette Forum if you want to.

Or Just keep blastimizing me if that makes you Happy !!!!!!!!!!!

gassermann

Hello: I have and I useing a magneto in my gasser vette would like to talk to you more about rebuilding and noise issues give me a call when you get a chance my namr is Ed 513-383-5061

87 vette 81 big girl

Hi Ed,

Yes I will.

I will call you within next 1/2 hour then.

Brian R.

87 vette 81 big girl

You will see me calling with a 309 area code from Illinois.
Its me then.

Holding my 6 month old son Nick, hes going to sleep.
Call You as soon as I can.

Thanks, Brian

87 vette 81 big girl

Hi Ed,

Was nice talking to You tonight on the phone and sharing your experience using Vertex Magnetos on Your Gasser 1963 Split Window Corvette with the ENGEL Converted to EFI Alcohol Velocity Stacked Injection System.

I hope my tips helped you with better EMI/ RFI shielding.

I remembered after ending our phone conversation for the night,
I do have a photo of that hard to obtain now Special Vertex Magneto OAC Cover for AVIATION USAGE.

I have a Vintage 1989 Vertex Magneto Catalog when Vertex was based BLUE BELL, Pennsylvania.
Before they moved to Grandview, Missouri.

In there is a color photograph of that Special Spun Aluminum Magneto Cap to shield against RFI/EMI from an airplanes sensitive Navigation Instruments and Communication Radios.

I can Email your photographs of it if you like.

I stand behind all repairs.
OAC and OAX Vertex Magnetos.

Will guarantee that after I service or rebuild your Vertex Magneto that it will fire flawlessly up to 10,000 RPM's time and time again.

I also can custom tailor any mechanical advance rate you want, total advance setting or I can lock them out to full advance if you wish.

Locking the advance out is best if you intend to turn 8,000 - 9,000RPM's + consistently.

Brian R.

gassermann

Sounds good thanks for calling sorry i had get off phone so quickly but my son had his new girl friend over and they were about to leave for evening. I look foward to pics my email is gassermann@gmail.com thanks for your time Ed

cv67

wtf