Nathan Plemons

Have you ever been so discouraged that you just want to push the freaking thing off a cliff?

Well as many of you are probably aware my friend Brent has been having all kinds of trouble with his BlueDemon. About a month or so ago we set about to change the seal on his transmission, it was slinging fluid everywhere. He had the car towed home because he didn't know how low his fluid was, otherwise the car was running just fine. He had actually noticed that his oil pressure was a little lower than he thought it should be, but ok.

He then went out of town for a week, when he came back he pulled the car into the garage, only now it was making some loud clicking, like all the rocker arms loosened themselves while he didn't drive it. Anyway we changed the tranny seal and then proceeded to adjust the rocker arms. We found out real quick that the clicking noise could not be adjusted out. We thought it might just be some bad rockers, they are pretty old and crappy looking. We just happened to have a new set of rockers, so we put those on. Same story, the sound almost sounded like it was coming from within the motor. Oh, after an oil and filter change we still had oil pressure problems, when cold it floats around 25 at idle, but as it warms up it falls down to almost nothing.

We pulled the intake off and found something very interesting. One of his new Comp Cams Pro Magnum lifters had decided to self destruct. The pushrod held it together so it didn't send parts flying around his motor. Anyway, we felt good about this, thinking that the lifter COULD be the source of his oil pressure issues and it COULD be the source of his sound problem. One of his pushrods looked like it was trying to come apart as well. We put my stock lifters back in and used a set of trick flow one piece pushrods and tried to put it all back together. So that took a week or more because of a stripped thread, etc, etc.

Anyway we finally got it all put back together last night and fired it up. It started up, it wouldn't idle because all the rockers were too loose and were making a terrible noise. We quit for the night. Tonight we went back and adjusted all the rockers, painstakingly turning over his 12:1 compression motor over by hand. We started it back up and two of them were still too loose and it wouldn't idle right. We adjusted them again and tried again. Now it would idle. We noticed that there sure wasn't a lot of oil being pumped up topside. Oil pressure was holding steady at 25. We tweaked a few more rockers with the motor running and some of the oil slowly started to appear on the driver's side. We soon realized that we once again had what sounded like a loose rocker that could not be adjusted out. We noticed that some oil has started to come up like it is supposed to. We shut it off again. We started looking and the driver's side which seems to be where the noise is coming from had oil. The passenger side however was dry except for the back two rockers, which only had very little oil.

So, WTF?? We seem to have two problems that are not related. One our oil pump is probably bad. Even though it's a brand new pump, we can accept that. But what in the world is the noise??? A friend who happened to be watching thought it might be a weak spring. To me that just doesn't sound right, usually a weak spring only comes apparent in the higher RPMS where valve float becomes a problem. Also the motor seems to run VERY smoothly, wouldn't an extremely weak spring cause it to run poorly. I just don't buy the spring story. These are brand new Comp Cams TRIPLE springs. I guess if we could have a bad lifter and a bad oil pump we could have a bad spring as well, but come on. It just doesn't sound like a weak spring would make a noise like that.

The only other thought we have is that it could be a bent valve, again though it runs just fine. Could a bent valve make such a noise? Oh, BTW, you guessed it, these valves are brand new as well and of the highest quality although I don't know what brand.

All the trouble with this thing is enough to make you want to :U

shepsvettes

When I put the distributor back in my 84 I had the same problem, no oit to the passenger side rockers, after some checking I realized that the distributor wasn't all the way down and was shuttint the oil gally to the right side off. I know the LT1 or 4 doesn't have a distributor but is there should be something in the block in it's place of it the oil goes to the lifter galleys from there one passage is a little bit higher than the other. Don't know if this will help but just look at the oil flow on a bare block and you will see what I mean. :eek: :eek: :eek:

lowflyer

Wow, sorry to hear about your problems... I know the feeling, I think at one time or another, we've all been there.
Lets see what we can do: First, have someone else listen to the noise. Are you sure its a rocker arm and not something else? ie: rods, something in the bottom end, etc... If its a loose rocker, you'll be able to wiggle them when you first shut off the motor, it will be very apparent. I would assume you checked the rocker studs to see if they are all at the same height?
The push rods you used, are they the correct length?
Next, try going to a mechanical oil pressure guage to see the actual pressure readings. I have come across some pressure senders that stick at certain places, regardless of actual.
Oh and about the oil pump, last week, I put a new oil pump in a customer's car with only 30K on the motor. The oil pump had only 1 out of the 5 retaining bolts holding it together. It left the factory that way!! and the dealer kept telling the customer that 5psi at idle was normal:eek: So a bad pump from the parts store is not that uncommon.
Keep us posted and good luck.

Nathan Plemons

Oh I know it's NOT a rocker arm, it just SOUNDS like a rocker arm. That's the best way I can describe it. It's certainly on the heads as well, not internal. All the pushrods and rocker studs are correct as well. Oh, BTW the oil pressure gauge isn't sticking, it moves around like it should. It's not mechanical, but it's a brand new autometer (like brand new means jack sh&SDD&*(t) on this car.


[Modified by Nathan Plemons, 7:24 PM 1/26/2002]

vmi_vette

Have you check all of you exhaust manifold bolts? An exhaust leak can have a very metalic sound, and exhaust manifold / header bolts tend to work themselves loose. For over a week I heard a sound that I thought was a loose rocker arm or collapsed lifter. It ended up being two things, a sightly loose rocker arm, which did not cure the "tapping" sounds I heard while driving, and loose exhaust manifold bolts, which did. The number 7 & 8 bolts were so loose I could turn them by hand. Also on the passenger side, it takes a while for oil flow to get to the number 4 and number 2 inlet and exhaust rockers. That is why most engine wear and tear occurs during start-up and intial running before the car is warm. Hope this gives you some other ideas.

Nathan Plemons

Trust me, if you heard this you would know it's not an exhaust leak. Besides, all the header bolts are present and accounted for, and tight.

WINNER

Nathan, have you run a compression check on it? if it's a bent valve a compression check will find it! can you tell how deep in the block the sound is coming from? low oil pressure and a tapping sound down deep could mean a main bearing problem :U or possibly cam damage from the broken lifter.

vmi_vette

Nathan, good luck! I hope you find the problem soon. Definitely do the compression check, as WINNER suggested, since it is one of the best ways to diagnose an engine.

dtorc4

"Oh no! We suck again!!"

We may suck again, but Ford has always swallowed :cry :D :lol: :p:

jfb

You could have a lifter that won't pump up. One thing to try is to pump oil onto each lifter during idle and see if the noise stops.

RichS

Low oils pressure will cause the rockers to be noisey. This is the first place that will suffer. Alos if the lifters or pushrods have crap i them the oil can't get thru. Even though it would be a pain I would pull the intake and check the oil pump drive assembly (It is a LT1 right?) Pull the drive out and use a regular oil primer with a drill to see if you are getting oil to all the rockers and what the pressure is. You should see about 50-80 depending on the pump. If it is real low and no oil is going up top I would drop the pan and pull the pump. How is the pickup installed on the pump? Is it just a pressin? was it tack welded on? Maybe it is sucking air if the pickup tube is loose. While changing the pump I would pull a few main caps and rod caps to check the bearings and see how they look even though you say there is no knocking. Another cause I've seen before is a spun cam bearing but usually the car will bearly run.

Andy1983

Unfortunately Nathan, you are Einstein and I am a redneck hillbilly when it comes to cars. Don't get me wrong, I know more than the average shmoe, but you are 10x what I am. So I am sorry for your trouble, and I hope it works out for you.

A little off subject, but I won't mind if ya drive a Ford. We have a Lincoln and an F-150 in this household. You are cool in my book as long as it isnt a Honda, Nissan, or any other foriegn piece of crap. :D :yesnod:

PurpleC4

Nathan,
If it weren't for bad luck ~ you'd have no luck at all.

Oil starvation to the top of the engine will create strange noises. The rocker arms are under a tremendous amount of pressure, so lubrication is definately required. I am not sure if you have roller Rockers, if not, try squirting oil into each ball socket while running.

On the slightly negative side ~~~ I have seen some engine builders get overzealous with silicone when sealing the motor, and more than once I have seen where the silicone got into the camshaft oil galleys........you guessed it ~ oil starvation to the rockers fed off that passage.

If you have roller rockers, you could have a bad set of bearings in one rocker that doesn't rear its ugly head until under pressure. I hope this helps.
:seeya Purp

Nathan Plemons

Thanks guys. Yes they are roller rockers, but we have tried a different set with the same symptoms. We're gonna work on the oil pump next. He knows a guy with a lift who can get the oil pan off in 20 minutes, so we're gonna talk to him. If the pump is fine I guess we'll start looking for a restricted passage, but boy would that suck.

korvetkeith

Sounds like a winner, Good Luck!

SPD DMN

From the sounds of it, I would say a clogged oil passage. Could be a small peice of the previous lifter, or silicon like previously mentioned which could be the cause of the previous lifter's failure. If your showing pressure and getting oil to 3/4 of the engine, I would not suspect the oil pump, usually it is a work/no work kind of thing from my experience. I would still pull the pan and check for metal peices of any kind. You may see some bearing fragments in there. I feel for you guys.

PurpleC4

Basically, the oil pump is positive displacement ~ go/no go. The problem could be in the relief (bypass) spring setting, but doubt it would cause the problems you are experiencing.
:seeya Purp

92corvette

Nathan, I chased a noise in mine lately after changing rockers and lifters. I just found this weekend that is a pulley making the noise. Try putting a stethascope on the tensioner pulley to check.
The other thing I have had on a newly rebuilt engine has been mentioned above when oil would not make it to the rockers. Sealant in the oil passages. I hope that's not it.

TPFKATK

Mechanics' stethascopes are the hot ticket. Around 5 bucks at the cheapo tool places.
Good luck.
Harold

neekos

Nathan:

I bet its the oil pump that's the culprit.
Let us know when you find out for sure what it is.