Factors contributing to a 383 making too much heat?
06-04-2008, 09:40 PM
#21
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks everybody for all the answers, let's see,
it's a brand new Ron Davis radiator and is definitely not blocked. Nothing is in front of the rad or between the rad and the condensor. I'm sure. This particular issue one can just rest.
The water pump is new and is specifically for an L-98 http://www.flowkooler.com. I'm sure it's running in the right direction.
All plugs are new. I haven't looked at them in 90 days or so but I will in the next couple of days.
I'm running Ford 24 pound injectors
ECM has been reprogrammed for the 383 with the correct values for the cam etc. It was done by www.fastchip.com.
Fans are defintely pulling and not pushing. They start at the programmed temp (184) and shut off at 180 as desired. PLEASE don't argue about this one. I learned to program my own ecm and spent about three months to figure these temps out. NO the fans DON'T run all the time and I have a 140 amp alternator.
No vacuum leaks anywhere.
Sorry, I should have said SPRING retainers not valce retainers. I don't seem to have any spring retainers. The engine builder claims they wouldn't fit under stock valcve covers. Didn't give me the option of using different covers and just went with his own decision.
Recently there was a thread asking about the correct felpro head gasket to use and a member indicated that he bought a correct felpro gasket but that it had some coolant passeges blocked towards the back. Another forum member suggested that those be cut out. That one REALLY caught my attention.
Therefore, Cyclonite might have hit the nail on the head. The ONLY thing I haven't done yet is pull the heads and check for blocked coolant passages. I could almost FEEL that this might be the real issue.
Having talked with the engine builder at length, I've come to the decision that this tack is not as sharp as he should be. He seemed to think that coolant flow might have been too fast. I used a contraption that I put together to VARY coolant flow on the lower hose and was unsuccessful at any setting. It seems that the faster the coolant speed the better cooling I get. see http://www.labib.com/hosevalve.jpg . That experiment only took at least a month or so ...
I know that in some cases coolant flow MIGHT end up being too fast and there could be cavitation but NOT in this system. Stewart components think that there is such a thing as flow that is too fast. They explicitly say that on theior website.
Anyway, I'm going to shoot temps with a gun everywhere and see if that gives me a clue. I'm also going to check the plugs and try different timing values to see if this sumbitch will eventually allow me to idle in city traffic WITH the air conditioning on and not keep my eyes on the guage. My wife is so sick of me looking at the guages in this car she won't go anywhere in it anymore. Says I'm too preoccupied and that it's no fun...
I'll also FINALLY pull the heads this winter and if I find a gasket blocking ANY coolant passages, I swear this engine builder will never hear the end of from me. I've been dealing with this frikkin problem for FOUR years now and am really close to the end of my wits...
Anyway, thanks again for everyone who answered and contributed.
Lee
it's a brand new Ron Davis radiator and is definitely not blocked. Nothing is in front of the rad or between the rad and the condensor. I'm sure. This particular issue one can just rest.
The water pump is new and is specifically for an L-98 http://www.flowkooler.com. I'm sure it's running in the right direction.
All plugs are new. I haven't looked at them in 90 days or so but I will in the next couple of days.
I'm running Ford 24 pound injectors
ECM has been reprogrammed for the 383 with the correct values for the cam etc. It was done by www.fastchip.com.
Fans are defintely pulling and not pushing. They start at the programmed temp (184) and shut off at 180 as desired. PLEASE don't argue about this one. I learned to program my own ecm and spent about three months to figure these temps out. NO the fans DON'T run all the time and I have a 140 amp alternator.
No vacuum leaks anywhere.
Sorry, I should have said SPRING retainers not valce retainers. I don't seem to have any spring retainers. The engine builder claims they wouldn't fit under stock valcve covers. Didn't give me the option of using different covers and just went with his own decision.
Recently there was a thread asking about the correct felpro head gasket to use and a member indicated that he bought a correct felpro gasket but that it had some coolant passeges blocked towards the back. Another forum member suggested that those be cut out. That one REALLY caught my attention.
Therefore, Cyclonite might have hit the nail on the head. The ONLY thing I haven't done yet is pull the heads and check for blocked coolant passages. I could almost FEEL that this might be the real issue.
Having talked with the engine builder at length, I've come to the decision that this tack is not as sharp as he should be. He seemed to think that coolant flow might have been too fast. I used a contraption that I put together to VARY coolant flow on the lower hose and was unsuccessful at any setting. It seems that the faster the coolant speed the better cooling I get. see http://www.labib.com/hosevalve.jpg . That experiment only took at least a month or so ...
I know that in some cases coolant flow MIGHT end up being too fast and there could be cavitation but NOT in this system. Stewart components think that there is such a thing as flow that is too fast. They explicitly say that on theior website.
Anyway, I'm going to shoot temps with a gun everywhere and see if that gives me a clue. I'm also going to check the plugs and try different timing values to see if this sumbitch will eventually allow me to idle in city traffic WITH the air conditioning on and not keep my eyes on the guage. My wife is so sick of me looking at the guages in this car she won't go anywhere in it anymore. Says I'm too preoccupied and that it's no fun...
I'll also FINALLY pull the heads this winter and if I find a gasket blocking ANY coolant passages, I swear this engine builder will never hear the end of from me. I've been dealing with this frikkin problem for FOUR years now and am really close to the end of my wits...
Anyway, thanks again for everyone who answered and contributed.
Lee
06-04-2008, 10:39 PM
#22
Something I ran into in the past,
The clearance for the pistons were not enough (machinist's mistake).
Would run OK at low speed but would start to overheat when RPM was raised.
The clearance for the pistons were not enough (machinist's mistake).
Would run OK at low speed but would start to overheat when RPM was raised.
06-05-2008, 02:41 AM
#23
Race Director
pistons too tight will cause heat. i had a motor that ran really hot for the first 5000 or so miles a few years ago..i susupected this. another one is the clearance between the front of your radiator and the AC condenser. make sure you have a gap and that condenser isn't full of crap limiting your airflow.
06-05-2008, 03:27 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
I hope you find a solution to this. I have a 383 LT4 with a Ron Davis radiator and an electric WP and today, with temps around 100* (Phoenix AZ) I was running around 195-200* water temps...with some very spirited driving.
Pulling the heads really isn't too bad...I don't think I'd be able to wait until winter! Good luck!!
Pulling the heads really isn't too bad...I don't think I'd be able to wait until winter! Good luck!!
06-05-2008, 11:38 AM
#26
Le Mans Master
I didn't know the engine was a recent build; so it could be something to do with the build.
We're still not on the same page about retainers/rotators. Under valve covers like yours you'll find these parts-
valve stems,
shims fitted over the valve stems,
valve springs sitting on the shims,
retainers on top of the springs with valve stems inserted thru the hole ,
locks holding the valve stems to the retainers,
rocker arm studs,
guide plates held in place by the rocker arm studs (some heads don't use guide plates),
pushrods, rocker arms,
rocker arm adjusting nuts
heads of head bolts with washers under those head bolts if using aluminum heads.
Which part are you saying you're missing?
Jake
We're still not on the same page about retainers/rotators. Under valve covers like yours you'll find these parts-
valve stems,
shims fitted over the valve stems,
valve springs sitting on the shims,
retainers on top of the springs with valve stems inserted thru the hole ,
locks holding the valve stems to the retainers,
rocker arm studs,
guide plates held in place by the rocker arm studs (some heads don't use guide plates),
pushrods, rocker arms,
rocker arm adjusting nuts
heads of head bolts with washers under those head bolts if using aluminum heads.
Which part are you saying you're missing?
Jake
06-05-2008, 01:34 PM
#27
Pro
Thread Starter
Hey Jake,
I'm missing these:
(retainers on top of the springs with valve stems inserted thru the hole)
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Not too liong ago, and with only 4000 miles on this recent build engine, I hit a big pothole and suddenly the car started missing and running like s__t. I was finally able to diagnose it to a broken spring (cyl number 5).
The folks that replaced the springs, said that I was missing the spring retainers that kept the springs moving up and down. They were pretty sure the springs were moving sideways too.
I was told that whoever it was that built the engine skimped. I confronted the engine builder and his response was that using spring retainers would have made him have to use after market valve covers. It sounded like B.S. then and still does.
Thanks
Lee
I'm missing these:
(retainers on top of the springs with valve stems inserted thru the hole)
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Not too liong ago, and with only 4000 miles on this recent build engine, I hit a big pothole and suddenly the car started missing and running like s__t. I was finally able to diagnose it to a broken spring (cyl number 5).
The folks that replaced the springs, said that I was missing the spring retainers that kept the springs moving up and down. They were pretty sure the springs were moving sideways too.
I was told that whoever it was that built the engine skimped. I confronted the engine builder and his response was that using spring retainers would have made him have to use after market valve covers. It sounded like B.S. then and still does.
Thanks
Lee
06-05-2008, 01:55 PM
#28
Le Mans Master
Hey Jake,
I'm missing these:
(retainers on top of the springs with valve stems inserted thru the hole)
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Not too liong ago, and with only 4000 miles on this recent build engine, I hit a big pothole and suddenly the car started missing and running like s__t. I was finally able to diagnose it to a broken spring (cyl number 5).
The folks that replaced the springs, said that I was missing the spring retainers that kept the springs moving up and down. They were pretty sure the springs were moving sideways too.
I was told that whoever it was that built the engine skimped. I confronted the engine builder and his response was that using spring retainers would have made him have to use after market valve covers. It sounded like B.S. then and still does.
Thanks
Lee
I'm missing these:
(retainers on top of the springs with valve stems inserted thru the hole)
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Not too liong ago, and with only 4000 miles on this recent build engine, I hit a big pothole and suddenly the car started missing and running like s__t. I was finally able to diagnose it to a broken spring (cyl number 5).
The folks that replaced the springs, said that I was missing the spring retainers that kept the springs moving up and down. They were pretty sure the springs were moving sideways too.
I was told that whoever it was that built the engine skimped. I confronted the engine builder and his response was that using spring retainers would have made him have to use after market valve covers. It sounded like B.S. then and still does.
Thanks
Lee
IMPOSIBLE! They hold the spring to the head under seat pressure, usually over 100 psi pressure.
They come in aluminum (NEVER RUN THOSE), steel or titanium.
They're round, slightly larger than a silver dollar with a hole in the center which is slightly larger than the OD of the valve spring and are on TOP of the valve spring.
The pic shows what we call cups or valve spring locators. Why they're named "retainers" is a mystery to me. Most consider a retainer as the part that mounts on the TOP of the spring, not the BOTTOM.
Jake
Last edited by JAKE; 06-05-2008 at 02:12 PM.
06-05-2008, 02:00 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
The cups prevent spring vibration from eating away at the aluminum head material which can make your engine oil look like you've been mining in a silver mine.
Jake
Jake
06-05-2008, 02:27 PM
#30
Pro
Thread Starter
Custom engine building is for the birds ...
Jake, you're right. My oil goes from brand new to dark metallic in less than 300 miles. It won't be long before I redo all that myself now that I know what to get and where to get it from.
It's amazing how some of these engine buiilders figure out ways to use cheap crap inside just to make an extra 50 dollars. Never mind that redoing their work will cost hundreds if not thousands.
Once I open the engine and look for myself, so help me if I see any more crap by this builder, I swear I'll put up a web page dedicated to defaming this guy.
NOBODY can compensate me for the HUNDREDS of HOURS of lost driving enjoyment time this guy cost me so far. And next time, if I EVER have another engine custom built, it will have to be done by someone NEXT DOOR so I can SEE with my own eyes EVERY step of the build process. Buying an engine from across the country was the dumbest mistake I ever made.
Good luck to all engine builders out there. You aint gonna get any long distance business any more with more stories like mine. Thank god for crate engines nowadays...
It's amazing how some of these engine buiilders figure out ways to use cheap crap inside just to make an extra 50 dollars. Never mind that redoing their work will cost hundreds if not thousands.
Once I open the engine and look for myself, so help me if I see any more crap by this builder, I swear I'll put up a web page dedicated to defaming this guy.
NOBODY can compensate me for the HUNDREDS of HOURS of lost driving enjoyment time this guy cost me so far. And next time, if I EVER have another engine custom built, it will have to be done by someone NEXT DOOR so I can SEE with my own eyes EVERY step of the build process. Buying an engine from across the country was the dumbest mistake I ever made.
Good luck to all engine builders out there. You aint gonna get any long distance business any more with more stories like mine. Thank god for crate engines nowadays...
06-05-2008, 02:40 PM
#31
Race Director
gawd, where did you find this guy? by the way, which gaskets are these that go on backwards? i did some felpro 1010s when i did a head change and a 1st grader could have lined them up easily. the holes only line up right one way.
06-05-2008, 02:43 PM
#32
Le Mans Master
Many, and probably most, heads come without cups/locators; they're usually an extra cost option. I believe even engines installed at the factory don't have them.
My Edelbrock Performer RPM heads came WITHOUT them and I'll bet that others, like AFR, Dart, Brodix, etc., come the same way unless they're ordered with cup/locators.
What about you crate engine guys, did your heads have them?
Most companies feel the valve spring shims are all that's needed. I installed cups on my AFR heads because from building BB 1/4 mile engines I know the downside of not using them.
Jake
My Edelbrock Performer RPM heads came WITHOUT them and I'll bet that others, like AFR, Dart, Brodix, etc., come the same way unless they're ordered with cup/locators.
What about you crate engine guys, did your heads have them?
Most companies feel the valve spring shims are all that's needed. I installed cups on my AFR heads because from building BB 1/4 mile engines I know the downside of not using them.
Jake
06-05-2008, 02:59 PM
#33
Race Director
shims are common, from the feeling of this post his engine doesn't even have those. on a dual spring only the inner is mandatory to positivly locate. my old heads were shims only as well.
06-05-2008, 03:01 PM
#34
Le Mans Master
You can't be missing spring retainers...the car would probably barely even run. I broke a single retainer a few months ago and could tell immediately. Plus, if you were missing those all your valves would have been smacking against the pistons...your engine wouldn't run for 30 seconds!
Pop a valve cover off and take a picture!
Pop a valve cover off and take a picture!
06-05-2008, 03:38 PM
#36
Race Director
You can't be missing spring retainers...the car would probably barely even run. I broke a single retainer a few months ago and could tell immediately. Plus, if you were missing those all your valves would have been smacking against the pistons...your engine wouldn't run for 30 seconds!
Pop a valve cover off and take a picture!
Pop a valve cover off and take a picture!
06-05-2008, 03:53 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
No problem now that we know what he's referring to.
Jake
06-05-2008, 07:08 PM
#38
Do this to that engine builder
Jake, you're right. My oil goes from brand new to dark metallic in less than 300 miles. It won't be long before I redo all that myself now that I know what to get and where to get it from.
It's amazing how some of these engine buiilders figure out ways to use cheap crap inside just to make an extra 50 dollars. Never mind that redoing their work will cost hundreds if not thousands.
Once I open the engine and look for myself, so help me if I see any more crap by this builder, I swear I'll put up a web page dedicated to defaming this guy.
NOBODY can compensate me for the HUNDREDS of HOURS of lost driving enjoyment time this guy cost me so far. And next time, if I EVER have another engine custom built, it will have to be done by someone NEXT DOOR so I can SEE with my own eyes EVERY step of the build process. Buying an engine from across the country was the dumbest mistake I ever made.
Good luck to all engine builders out there. You aint gonna get any long distance business any more with more stories like mine. Thank god for crate engines nowadays...
It's amazing how some of these engine buiilders figure out ways to use cheap crap inside just to make an extra 50 dollars. Never mind that redoing their work will cost hundreds if not thousands.
Once I open the engine and look for myself, so help me if I see any more crap by this builder, I swear I'll put up a web page dedicated to defaming this guy.
NOBODY can compensate me for the HUNDREDS of HOURS of lost driving enjoyment time this guy cost me so far. And next time, if I EVER have another engine custom built, it will have to be done by someone NEXT DOOR so I can SEE with my own eyes EVERY step of the build process. Buying an engine from across the country was the dumbest mistake I ever made.
Good luck to all engine builders out there. You aint gonna get any long distance business any more with more stories like mine. Thank god for crate engines nowadays...
06-05-2008, 09:10 PM
#39
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks guys. I almost always use the wrong terminology when it comes to engine parts. I should be more exact I know. English AINT my first language and its a miracle I got this far :-)
Yeah I'm really ticked at the engine builder and can't wait to actually pop the heads off to see what the heck is going on. My old stock engine behaved exactly like everybody else described. The colling cycle would work as advertised. The fan would come on and the coolant temp would almost immeddiately start to go down. On this engine, All the fans seem to do is to slow the rate at which the coolant temp goes up. Whenever I use the A/C temps go up even faster unless I'm going 70 mph on the freeway in cool weather. That's almost exactly when I DON'T need the AC :-)
Lee
Yeah I'm really ticked at the engine builder and can't wait to actually pop the heads off to see what the heck is going on. My old stock engine behaved exactly like everybody else described. The colling cycle would work as advertised. The fan would come on and the coolant temp would almost immeddiately start to go down. On this engine, All the fans seem to do is to slow the rate at which the coolant temp goes up. Whenever I use the A/C temps go up even faster unless I'm going 70 mph on the freeway in cool weather. That's almost exactly when I DON'T need the AC :-)
Lee
Last edited by combustables; 06-05-2008 at 09:16 PM.
06-05-2008, 09:59 PM
#40
Drifting
Humor me and take a ride without the thermostat in. Don't test it or replace it, remove it and go for a spin. I'll bet 1 dollar your temp goes to norm.