Intake mods and simple math. Those calculators must not be so great!!!
#22
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607 cfm for the WHOLE motor means 76cfm for each cylinder!!!
To see what effects various mods had on a L98 check out the article data on my site.
Last edited by 65Z01; 09-20-2007 at 12:58 AM.
#23
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Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
Well I certainly understood, in some of my reading, how VE decreases as RPMs increase.
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
This might explain if a bigger TB than 48mm is useful, but I'm skeptical that it will explain how a 200cfm runner isn't sufficient to supply a 76cfm cylinder. (My "pressure" theory below might though).
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
The books sounds interesting but I'm not sure I'm looking for more than the short answer so I can figure out my next move.
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
I understand that feeding a cylinder (thru a valve) is like opening the door to a room and letting air flow in. I look at the air routing in the manifold as a hallway leading up to the door.
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
I'm getting discouraged. But, I also don't want to end up P.O.'d that money spent didn't seem worth it.
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Last edited by CFI-EFI; 09-20-2007 at 04:39 PM.
#24
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Two good books for L98 are:
-"Insider Hints", by TPIS
-"Chevy TPI Fuel Injection Swapper's Guide, by John Baechtel
TPIS can supply the 1st book and Summit has the 2nd one. Here look on pp 39 for equations relating hp to injector size and air flow to injector size, hence hp to air flow.
BTW, I strongly recommend Dave Vizard's books for an in depth treatment of the SBC...
Yes this is true but there are several "dynamic" factors involved with cylinder filling too.
-exhaust gas scavenging, i.e during overlap exhaust gas exiting pressure wave actually tends to lower air pressure withing the cylinder at the start of the intake stoke
-since the intake runners are a finint length there is setup standing waves of air during engine operation; the wave length of said waves varies with RPM. The L98 "tuned" intake takes advantage of this "ram filling" effect to create its well know low end torque.
So, yea, an engine is an "air pump" but there are some rather complicated dynamics going on inside. For the L98 there has been so much work done that getting very good power is now basically a cook book deal.
-"Insider Hints", by TPIS
-"Chevy TPI Fuel Injection Swapper's Guide, by John Baechtel
TPIS can supply the 1st book and Summit has the 2nd one. Here look on pp 39 for equations relating hp to injector size and air flow to injector size, hence hp to air flow.
BTW, I strongly recommend Dave Vizard's books for an in depth treatment of the SBC...
It does seem like the more pressure potential behind the door (bigger intake) should help get the air in, but the whole aspect is poorly documented here.
-exhaust gas scavenging, i.e during overlap exhaust gas exiting pressure wave actually tends to lower air pressure withing the cylinder at the start of the intake stoke
-since the intake runners are a finint length there is setup standing waves of air during engine operation; the wave length of said waves varies with RPM. The L98 "tuned" intake takes advantage of this "ram filling" effect to create its well know low end torque.
So, yea, an engine is an "air pump" but there are some rather complicated dynamics going on inside. For the L98 there has been so much work done that getting very good power is now basically a cook book deal.
Last edited by 65Z01; 09-20-2007 at 04:27 PM.
#25
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Regarding my math.... 607 was my direct replacement of a formula used to show the 48mm was big enough for a 502. I replaced the CID with 350 to get 607 cfm @ 6K RPM. There are 8 distinct pathways thru the intake to the heads. The cfm values for a single port are provided in links I've viewed. They avg 200cfm and up. 607 divided by 8 is about 76. 76cfm will be drawn thru each of the 8 individual pathways to feed the cylinders. The only airspace they have in common is the TB/plenum and I'm talking about the runners/intake manifold combo.
gp
#26
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What is a "76cfm cylinder"? CFM is a measure of flow, cubic feet (volume) PER minute (time). Like miles PER hour. A 350 cid engine has cylinders that are (350 ÷ 8 =) 43.75 cubic inches in volume. WHAT is it you are describing as "a 76cfm cylinder"? A cylinder has no flow with no outside influence, it only has volume. 76 cfm isn't enough air flow to fully fill one cylinder, of a 350 cid engine, twice (in one minute).
That is fine, but don't include the plenum as part of the hallway. The plenum is the rotunda that the 8 hallways branch off of. Porting the plenum merely rounds the corners making it easier to enter the hall. The hall entrance is where the tuning begins. The plenum is just a supply point for the ports (runners). The runner length is "tuned" as explained above, for a specific rpm range. That intake tuning (hopefully coupled with exhaust tuning) changes the point of greatest VE and therefore influences at what rpm the torque peak occurs.
Gregg
#27
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Two good books for L98 are:
-"Insider Hints", by TPIS
-"Chevy TPI Fuel Injection Swapper's Guide, by John Baechtel
TPIS can supply the 1st book and Summit has the 2nd one. Here look on pp 39 for equations relating hp to injector size and air flow to injector size, hence hp to air flow.
BTW, I strongly recommend Dave Vizard's books for an in depth treatment of the SBC...
-"Insider Hints", by TPIS
-"Chevy TPI Fuel Injection Swapper's Guide, by John Baechtel
TPIS can supply the 1st book and Summit has the 2nd one. Here look on pp 39 for equations relating hp to injector size and air flow to injector size, hence hp to air flow.
BTW, I strongly recommend Dave Vizard's books for an in depth treatment of the SBC...
Your "cookbook" conclusion is kinda what I'm getting at. I'm not opposed to learning more about this but I've got a car in the garage with failing injectors. (I'm pretty sure it's started cutting out on one cylinder after it gets hot ). Unless I want to leave it in the garage, it's time to ACT!!!!
gp
#28
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Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
But the reading here is soooo much more fun!
Gregg
Gregg
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
Your "cookbook" conclusion is kinda what I'm getting at. I'm not opposed to learning more about this but...
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#30
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I did read Vizard's work on exhaust tuning last year. I what he said -- though it made my brain hurt.
#31
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I want to thank you again for the link to your webpage! The intake upgrades really seem meaningless in the 1994 test shown (i.e., 8HP). I suppose that supports the view that the stock intake ain't that bad!
OTOH, I'm shocked, stunned, and flabbergasted to see cut lid, Stage II chip, and air foil gains -- especially so big! Everyone else says they're B.S.!!!!!
If I'm reading right, I can get some decent gains with the frisbee, plug grind, air foil, K/N + cut lid, chip, and MAF screens. Goes against the grain for sure!
I might still do the port/polish of the heads and maybe port existing plenum/runners.
The siamese work on manifold and runners worries me a little because it looks like it could interupt SMOOTHED air flow! I get why it work though. Looks like each port could pull air from the adjacent tube. If rear tubes get more air (personal guess), it might even out air flow/engine performance between cylinders. (This is a reference to the earlier post about uneven runner/port flow).
Note: The link to the first article on MANIFOLD "siamesing" (from your website) is no longer there.
Great help!!!!!!!!
#32
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I suppose this is one of my fundamental questions. Again, flow number for the (intake) manifolds and runners start at 200cfm (stock) and go up. In a similar fashion to the math used to show a 650cfm TB (48mm) is big enough, I'm curious to see what -- if anything in the manifold is undersized.
There are endless posts that start with "What's the biggest restriction in my TPI?" Well..... is there one?
The lack of porting and polishing are about the only things I see. (Note: this is in regard to realizing the EXISTING 350 longblock's potential -- without changing head/cam).
gp
#33
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Your 200cfm runner doesn't get a full m to do its work...like it did on the flowbench when it racked up that number.
Using the 20 "working" seconds assumption above, your runner would need a flow rate of 76 * (60/20) = 228 cfm to move 76cfm of gas in the amount of "working" time that it has available.
This is a *vast* oversimplication, of course...but directly or indirectly, it accounts for the bulk of the "missing flow" that you're seeing...and delving into more esoteric considerations (ie. fluid dynamics) is going to be counterproductive here.
Last edited by 95PoloVert; 09-21-2007 at 02:09 AM.
#34
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This is a *vast* oversimplication, of course...but directly or indirectly, it accounts for the bulk of the "missing flow" that you're seeing...
Each side has a 2 1/2" pipe flowing at 560, right?
If I'm reading right, I can get some decent gains with the frisbee, plug grind, air foil, K/N + cut lid, chip, and MAF screens. Goes against the grain for sure!
I might still do the port/polish of the heads and maybe port existing plenum/runners.
The siamese work on manifold and runners worries me a little because it looks like it could interupt SMOOTHED air flow!
There is no longer siamese base data on my site but, if you drop me an email (w/ reference to siamese base) at jgkov@msn.com, I'll return some pics of my siamese base with matching work on the lower runner flanges.
#35
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Your 200cfm runner doesn't get a full m to do its work...like it did on the flowbench when it racked up that number.
Using the 20 "working" seconds assumption above, your runner would need a flow rate of 76 * (60/20) = 228 cfm to move 76cfm of gas in the amount of "working" time that it has available.
This is a *vast* oversimplication, of course...but directly or indirectly, it accounts for the bulk of the "missing flow" that you're seeing...and delving into more esoteric considerations (ie. fluid dynamics) is going to be counterproductive here.
Using the 20 "working" seconds assumption above, your runner would need a flow rate of 76 * (60/20) = 228 cfm to move 76cfm of gas in the amount of "working" time that it has available.
This is a *vast* oversimplication, of course...but directly or indirectly, it accounts for the bulk of the "missing flow" that you're seeing...and delving into more esoteric considerations (ie. fluid dynamics) is going to be counterproductive here.
Gregg
#36
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Also, I've heard a K&N flows the same as a new paper filter. From displays in the stores, they flow more. From the results, it seems more likely that they do help.
And, that 160 degree stat.... Well, I'm not going there.
From what I've read port & polish & work of the #113 heads can net up to 30chp gain. I think porting the stock base would also net some top end gains, especially if you siamese the base to remove the small stock runners from the "equation".
The idea of the siamese base is to increase the effective runner length while still maintaining runner length. Actually it creates two separate resonant chambers, one in the intake base the other in the two runners. Net result is a little low end loss but a real gain in top end power; the latter can be seen by my dyno pulls.
There is no longer siamese base data on my site but, if you drop me an email (w/ reference to siamese base) at jgkov@msn.com, I'll return some pics of my siamese base with matching work on the lower runner flanges.
The idea of the siamese base is to increase the effective runner length while still maintaining runner length. Actually it creates two separate resonant chambers, one in the intake base the other in the two runners. Net result is a little low end loss but a real gain in top end power; the latter can be seen by my dyno pulls.
There is no longer siamese base data on my site but, if you drop me an email (w/ reference to siamese base) at jgkov@msn.com, I'll return some pics of my siamese base with matching work on the lower runner flanges.
I'll send an email as directed, but others might want you to post data on the results -- if you have it!
Gregg
Last edited by GREGGPENN; 09-21-2007 at 11:13 AM.
#37
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Increased fuel pressure doesn't mean greater flow in lbs/hr, because as stated above, the computer will limit the pulse width in accordance with the O2 sensor. But-- this is only in closed loop operation.(???) Is it possible that the higher pressure gives a better spray pattern, or better atomization in all modes of operation. I'm as curious as you are, and I don't know the same things that you don't know.
#38
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Maybe better HP but not better mpg?
gp
#39
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(In case you hadn't noticed, there's a lot of conflicting info running around as well).
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Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
I indicated in the OP that I was getting frustrated. Guess you didn't catch that either....
(In case you hadn't noticed, there's a lot of conflicting info running around as well).
(In case you hadn't noticed, there's a lot of conflicting info running around as well).
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
But the reading here is soooo much more fun!
Originally Posted by GREGGPENN
Your "cookbook" conclusion is kinda what I'm getting at. I'm not opposed to learning more about this but...
RACE ON!!!