Blown 388 ci Damage PICS. Who's to blame?
07-09-2007, 09:38 AM
#21
Melting Slicks
Ok, I'm a little thick. Just putting this together. You are the one with the other post about the motor coming apart at 8 grand. DUH on me.
But, for you to even insinuate that its the fault of a shop that touched your car a year ago? Come on man, own up. Its no ones fault but yours.
And that thing has a solid roller with beehives? You and your builder should be ridiculed to death.
To even think about blaming someone else for this is right along the lines of sueing big tobacco because you got cancer after smoking for 30 years. I'm not even a smoker and to me thats ridiculous.
I think you owe the shop an apology.
But, for you to even insinuate that its the fault of a shop that touched your car a year ago? Come on man, own up. Its no ones fault but yours.
And that thing has a solid roller with beehives? You and your builder should be ridiculed to death.
To even think about blaming someone else for this is right along the lines of sueing big tobacco because you got cancer after smoking for 30 years. I'm not even a smoker and to me thats ridiculous.
I think you owe the shop an apology.
07-09-2007, 10:28 AM
#22
Team Owner
Member Since: Sep 2002
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In the world of performance engines and cars, s**t happens.
Not to defend this shop in particular, but how can you place liability for an engine failure on the last person to touch it? I can understand if the drain plug was left loose and it fell out and you lost all your oil.
The plug looks like you dropped a valve, no doubt. If you pull the valve cover and it happens to be that the rocker beat it to death, then yeah, maybe they are to blame.
But let me offer this bit of info; valves are made of 2 pieces. The head is fusion welded, or something like that, to the stem. I have seen more than one high perf valve drop a head right off and take out a whole motor.
It seems that alot of people want to place blame on 'the last shop' to service, modify, etc their car. When in reality, parts fail, people beat on their cars, some even go home and tinker after a pro shop has done work, only to inadvertantly sabatoge the work performed.
The piece of metal doesnt look like a retainer piece. Its been a year since the shop adjusted the rockers.
Its got beehive springs. You know those things break, right?
Comp has aknowledged this. When they break, there is no inner spring, or damper to be your saving grace. I wont put them in anything I build.
So, whos to blame? I guess you will at least narrow it down after you disassemble it.
Not to defend this shop in particular, but how can you place liability for an engine failure on the last person to touch it? I can understand if the drain plug was left loose and it fell out and you lost all your oil.
The plug looks like you dropped a valve, no doubt. If you pull the valve cover and it happens to be that the rocker beat it to death, then yeah, maybe they are to blame.
But let me offer this bit of info; valves are made of 2 pieces. The head is fusion welded, or something like that, to the stem. I have seen more than one high perf valve drop a head right off and take out a whole motor.
It seems that alot of people want to place blame on 'the last shop' to service, modify, etc their car. When in reality, parts fail, people beat on their cars, some even go home and tinker after a pro shop has done work, only to inadvertantly sabatoge the work performed.
The piece of metal doesnt look like a retainer piece. Its been a year since the shop adjusted the rockers.
Its got beehive springs. You know those things break, right?
Comp has aknowledged this. When they break, there is no inner spring, or damper to be your saving grace. I wont put them in anything I build.
So, whos to blame? I guess you will at least narrow it down after you disassemble it.
i'm making a tried and true generalization. all fingers point at the customer. and that's the risk one takes. thats the way of the world.
07-09-2007, 10:37 AM
#23
Melting Slicks
i agree, and i'm saying i bet dollars to donuts that if any shop is to blame, they will NEVER own up to it, doesn't matter what the customer says. unless the custom er is highly knowledgeable and can prove its them beyond a shadow of a doubt, and can pin it on their chest. that's the dark reality of the world of hi-po. they will rake you if they even see a hint of light.
i'm making a tried and true generalization. all fingers point at the customer. and that's the risk one takes. thats the way of the world.
i'm making a tried and true generalization. all fingers point at the customer. and that's the risk one takes. thats the way of the world.
This case is a perfect example of a mismatched setup combined with use by the owner that can be defined as nothing short of ABuse.
And then on top of all that to even suggest it may be someone elses fault? Please......
Another classic example of 'its everyone elses fault but mine'.
This is the EXACT reason there SHOULD NOT be any warranty on performance parts and service.
Even parts manufacturers limit their warranties to defects in materials and craftsmanship. Just for this reason.
07-09-2007, 12:04 PM
#24
Team Owner
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ed, again i fully agree. what i'm saying is that it doesn't matter where the blame lies, its always the customer. whether the customer had anything to do with it or not. no one will volunteer responsibility, if a shop is truly at fault you have to take them to court. and it could get quite difficult there, regardless.
the world of hi-po is a dark one. there's no debate about it. its the way of the world.
the lesson is, regardless of anything, the customer must know going in that he is, effectively, always responsible. thats the way it will go down. right or wrong, its the way of the world. i am speaking in general terms, not the case in this thread.
EDIT: i read the other post. no tune! yes i certainly agree its up against the customer.
believe me when i say i can appreciate what a "no tune" situation will do to your motor. especially if you're MAP. i found that out when my engine was rebuilt the 1rst time. a guy here on this board did NO FUELING changes to the chip, and he called it a custom chip. oops, there goes the daisies with broken ring lands in pistons 3 & 5. PM me for details, if anyone cares to know about it.
the world of hi-po is a dark one. there's no debate about it. its the way of the world.
the lesson is, regardless of anything, the customer must know going in that he is, effectively, always responsible. thats the way it will go down. right or wrong, its the way of the world. i am speaking in general terms, not the case in this thread.
EDIT: i read the other post. no tune! yes i certainly agree its up against the customer.
believe me when i say i can appreciate what a "no tune" situation will do to your motor. especially if you're MAP. i found that out when my engine was rebuilt the 1rst time. a guy here on this board did NO FUELING changes to the chip, and he called it a custom chip. oops, there goes the daisies with broken ring lands in pistons 3 & 5. PM me for details, if anyone cares to know about it.
Last edited by Red Tornado; 07-09-2007 at 12:13 PM.
07-09-2007, 12:25 PM
#25
Safety Car
Thread Starter
I understand what you guys are saying. I only added 'who's to blame' to the post to add a little twist. In no way have I blamed the shoppe and asked them to take responsibility. Even though I will end up paying fully for the new motor it doesn't bother me one bit. I was only trying to piece A and B together. The lash was last set last summer but the car has about 1000 miles on it since then. ever since then I have been having tuning issues which I was always sure resulted from it.
I guess I can say I would feel better that this motor dropped a valve due to a bad lash job damaging a valve tip. At least that way i have full confidence in the new build. I know you guys are skeptical of the build and #s of the motor. Remember that I have not given many details on what parts and actual cam specs and everything else. I did not want this to be a pissing match about wether or not the motor will go 8k rpm.
edcmat-l1 .. The block that you are referring to has it been machined/bored over? what machining has been done? DO you have more than one block? i didn't need the splayed caps because I have brand new caps sitting here. pm me plz i am interested.
I guess I can say I would feel better that this motor dropped a valve due to a bad lash job damaging a valve tip. At least that way i have full confidence in the new build. I know you guys are skeptical of the build and #s of the motor. Remember that I have not given many details on what parts and actual cam specs and everything else. I did not want this to be a pissing match about wether or not the motor will go 8k rpm.
edcmat-l1 .. The block that you are referring to has it been machined/bored over? what machining has been done? DO you have more than one block? i didn't need the splayed caps because I have brand new caps sitting here. pm me plz i am interested.
07-09-2007, 12:44 PM
#26
Melting Slicks
I understand what you guys are saying. I only added 'who's to blame' to the post to add a little twist. In no way have I blamed the shoppe and asked them to take responsibility. Even though I will end up paying fully for the new motor it doesn't bother me one bit. I was only trying to piece A and B together. The lash was last set last summer but the car has about 1000 miles on it since then. ever since then I have been having tuning issues which I was always sure resulted from it.
I guess I can say I would feel better that this motor dropped a valve due to a bad lash job damaging a valve tip. At least that way i have full confidence in the new build. I know you guys are skeptical of the build and #s of the motor. Remember that I have not given many details on what parts and actual cam specs and everything else. I did not want this to be a pissing match about wether or not the motor will go 8k rpm.
edcmat-l1 .. The block that you are referring to has it been machined/bored over? what machining has been done? DO you have more than one block? i didn't need the splayed caps because I have brand new caps sitting here. pm me plz i am interested.
I guess I can say I would feel better that this motor dropped a valve due to a bad lash job damaging a valve tip. At least that way i have full confidence in the new build. I know you guys are skeptical of the build and #s of the motor. Remember that I have not given many details on what parts and actual cam specs and everything else. I did not want this to be a pissing match about wether or not the motor will go 8k rpm.
edcmat-l1 .. The block that you are referring to has it been machined/bored over? what machining has been done? DO you have more than one block? i didn't need the splayed caps because I have brand new caps sitting here. pm me plz i am interested.
When it comes to hi-perf stuff, and the "whos to blame" stuff, that really gets me going. Especially with a story like this, accompanied by pictures that I can see for myself is a setup that by your own admission was run WAY in excess of what it should have been.
Alright, I'm done preachin, off the soap box.
The block I have done is bored .030 over,honed, cleaned, splayed caps, including all the machine work that goes with that. align boring and honing. The same stuff you would have to do to use your caps on another block.
New cam bearings and freeze plugs installed. Ready to assemble. After you give it a bath of course.
07-09-2007, 01:41 PM
#27
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Ahh now i undertsand why you previously have said what you did. I'll admit this is a new situation for me. I want to know what happened as much as they do and i'm just sharing information here on the forum to get input. I have been speaking to the shoppe on a daily basis and I'm 100% sure we're going to work through this together.
I know it's easy to blame because of the rpms I see. This motor was planned, and built with whatever components required to do what it did. He explained to me fully what those rpms would require in terms of valvetrain and valve weight etc etc and I was there with an open wallet.
The motor did everything it was supposed to do. In the 1/4 she did 128 mph on a 19" 30 series real street tire with a full z07 stiff and lowered suspension and full stereo system and full tank of gas. She was fast and the motor pulled to 8k without question. I was extremely happy with the motor.
I have been experiencing mixed emotions with this but ever since this happened I have moved forward and started planning my new build. First things first I need a new block. Once that is in place the car will go to the shoppe and the motor pulled to see what the extent of the damage was. I'll admit when I saw the first plug squished I was a little upset because I knew that was the cylinder the rocker nut was loose. that was the only plug i pulled because I just knew thats where the damage was going to be. Ever since the nut was loose I have been noticing a reduction in my VE tables across the rpms on my laptop. Something has been wrong there ever since.
Anyhow, I understand that building a street motor is not like buying a vaccum from Sears. I knew all along that this type of motor does not have a warranty and it doesn't bother me. it's a risk people take in this type of game. What bothers me however is anyone who denies all responsibility when they have done something wrong. This is kind of hard to explain my position on things.. i'm not really good at typing it without looking like I'm an angry customer looking to sue
(which I'm not !) So I'll stop here. I'll post some pics when I get the valve cover off later this evening.
Edcmat-L1 - Do you happen to have a 2 bolt block unmachined lying around? I spent some change on some nice program engy billet splayed caps SO i would like to use mine if possible. If have one or know where I might be able to get one that would be greatly appreciated ! I also know the shoppe would only want to do all the machining on their own so a machined block might be out of the question.
I know it's easy to blame because of the rpms I see. This motor was planned, and built with whatever components required to do what it did. He explained to me fully what those rpms would require in terms of valvetrain and valve weight etc etc and I was there with an open wallet.
The motor did everything it was supposed to do. In the 1/4 she did 128 mph on a 19" 30 series real street tire with a full z07 stiff and lowered suspension and full stereo system and full tank of gas. She was fast and the motor pulled to 8k without question. I was extremely happy with the motor.
I have been experiencing mixed emotions with this but ever since this happened I have moved forward and started planning my new build. First things first I need a new block. Once that is in place the car will go to the shoppe and the motor pulled to see what the extent of the damage was. I'll admit when I saw the first plug squished I was a little upset because I knew that was the cylinder the rocker nut was loose. that was the only plug i pulled because I just knew thats where the damage was going to be. Ever since the nut was loose I have been noticing a reduction in my VE tables across the rpms on my laptop. Something has been wrong there ever since.
Anyhow, I understand that building a street motor is not like buying a vaccum from Sears. I knew all along that this type of motor does not have a warranty and it doesn't bother me. it's a risk people take in this type of game. What bothers me however is anyone who denies all responsibility when they have done something wrong. This is kind of hard to explain my position on things.. i'm not really good at typing it without looking like I'm an angry customer looking to sue
(which I'm not !) So I'll stop here. I'll post some pics when I get the valve cover off later this evening.Edcmat-L1 - Do you happen to have a 2 bolt block unmachined lying around? I spent some change on some nice program engy billet splayed caps SO i would like to use mine if possible. If have one or know where I might be able to get one that would be greatly appreciated ! I also know the shoppe would only want to do all the machining on their own so a machined block might be out of the question.
07-13-2007, 01:54 PM
#30
Racer
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if it was anything the shop did, it would of showed up a lot sooner .one year later ,8k rpm and those valve spring that have had a very high failure rate .i don't think the shop is to blame one bit .imo