'86 Cranks, But Won't Start - VATS Problem?
06-19-2007, 09:33 PM
#41
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Had to order the starter enable relay today - will be in tomorrow. Only $14 w/ tax. I can't wait myself. It would be wonderful to hear the engine roar again. It's been a long time coming.
06-20-2007, 12:29 AM
#42
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The start enable relay switches 12v from your ,"crank", contact in the ign sw to the clutch safety switch. From the clutch sw, 12v goes to the starter solenoid on the starter. If the relay contacts are gummed up and won't make a low resistance connection, then your starter solenoid will not close and the starter motor won't crank. Best re -read my last post.
06-20-2007, 05:19 PM
#43
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Waiting to see what you find out. I am having the same exactly problem with my 89. Cranks but will not start. after all my checks the only thing I'm not getting is fuel. (double checked with some starting fluid and it'll start when sprayed into intake).
06-21-2007, 12:00 AM
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It's alive! For the first time in 2 years, my '86 coupe cranked, coughed, spit and ran for about 10 - 15 secs on 4 occassions. Very loud (exhaust pipes disconnected), lots of smoke - very dramatic. Thank God! 
I wish someone had a video of my joyous war cry when it first started. It was almost as loud as the roar of my engine - and ripe with a few choice expletive deletives.
Unfortunately, I couldn't dial it in tonite, though, since I was already running late for my son's ball game at 8PM. I can savor the joy until tomorrow, I guess.
So, here's the final pieces of the puzzle:
- Replaced the old, gunked up starter enable relay with a new one after cleaning up with connector. Engine cranked, but didn't start - as usual. One thing that did change, though. Key on / run voltage on the system jumped from 12.2 to 13.3 VDC, and cranking voltage on the system jumped from 10.1 to 11.4 VDC. Apparently, the old dielectric grease had become resistive over the years, so there was, in fact, an issue in that part of the circuit.
- So, I went back to basics again and made the same basics checks I made a few days ago: ESC connector disconnected. Fuel pressure in the rail about 45 psi - good. Noid light on #1 injector blinked while cranking - good. Spark on #1 plug - not there. WTF - the spark was there 3 or 4 days ago! The gremlin in my car has once again moved to try and confuse me and keep me from fixing the car.
- Troubleshot the distributor / HEI reference signals from the ECM coming in on the 4 pin connector on the distributor. 0 volts on all of them. Ran down to the junk yard and pulled a 1271665 ECM out of an '87 Camaro. It was a score for only $45. Even better, when I got the ECM home and popped the chip cover on the ECM to check the PROM and Memcal, my eyes noted in bold capitalized letters, "SUPERCHIPS". Turns out to be quite an excellent score for $45!
- Cleaned the connectors and plugged in the new ECM. Cranked the engine and still no start. Unreal! The problem has to be in the distributor, but everything in it was brand new 2 years ago before the no start problem. Nevertheless, I had spark 3 or 4 days ago - and now nothing.
- Pulled the distributor cap and found the latest problem - battery lead (red wire input) to the coil melted in half. That could be a problem! Went down the parts store and picked up a new coil and cap. Brought it home and installed it before my son's 8PM game. Cranked it and the car sputtered to life for the first time in 2 years! I am proud to say that I hunted that gremlin down, trapped it and killed it. History!
The sense of relief and accomplishment I am feeling right now is literally beyond words. Thanks to each and every one of you in the forum who contributed to this very informative thread.
Tomorrow I'm going to work on dialing it in and getting her to stay running. Got to blow some of that old gummy gas out the system. Then it will be time to go out and hunt some ricers, like the old days...
I wish someone had a video of my joyous war cry when it first started. It was almost as loud as the roar of my engine - and ripe with a few choice expletive deletives.
Unfortunately, I couldn't dial it in tonite, though, since I was already running late for my son's ball game at 8PM. I can savor the joy until tomorrow, I guess.
So, here's the final pieces of the puzzle:
- Replaced the old, gunked up starter enable relay with a new one after cleaning up with connector. Engine cranked, but didn't start - as usual. One thing that did change, though. Key on / run voltage on the system jumped from 12.2 to 13.3 VDC, and cranking voltage on the system jumped from 10.1 to 11.4 VDC. Apparently, the old dielectric grease had become resistive over the years, so there was, in fact, an issue in that part of the circuit.
- So, I went back to basics again and made the same basics checks I made a few days ago: ESC connector disconnected. Fuel pressure in the rail about 45 psi - good. Noid light on #1 injector blinked while cranking - good. Spark on #1 plug - not there. WTF - the spark was there 3 or 4 days ago! The gremlin in my car has once again moved to try and confuse me and keep me from fixing the car.
- Troubleshot the distributor / HEI reference signals from the ECM coming in on the 4 pin connector on the distributor. 0 volts on all of them. Ran down to the junk yard and pulled a 1271665 ECM out of an '87 Camaro. It was a score for only $45. Even better, when I got the ECM home and popped the chip cover on the ECM to check the PROM and Memcal, my eyes noted in bold capitalized letters, "SUPERCHIPS". Turns out to be quite an excellent score for $45!
- Cleaned the connectors and plugged in the new ECM. Cranked the engine and still no start. Unreal! The problem has to be in the distributor, but everything in it was brand new 2 years ago before the no start problem. Nevertheless, I had spark 3 or 4 days ago - and now nothing.
- Pulled the distributor cap and found the latest problem - battery lead (red wire input) to the coil melted in half. That could be a problem! Went down the parts store and picked up a new coil and cap. Brought it home and installed it before my son's 8PM game. Cranked it and the car sputtered to life for the first time in 2 years! I am proud to say that I hunted that gremlin down, trapped it and killed it. History!
The sense of relief and accomplishment I am feeling right now is literally beyond words. Thanks to each and every one of you in the forum who contributed to this very informative thread.
Tomorrow I'm going to work on dialing it in and getting her to stay running. Got to blow some of that old gummy gas out the system. Then it will be time to go out and hunt some ricers, like the old days...
06-21-2007, 12:24 AM
#45
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Im very glad to hear after all that searching you found it.The good news is,you learned about your car,and whats new,old and been checked and it makes future diagnosing problems easier.
Btw,be wary of the ADS Superchips. They work allright but sometimes dont.I had one and threw it away.I bought a new GM prom,IT was UPGRADED by the factory over the years and it ran way better with it.
My ADS Superchip,when I put the car into D,it would stall sometimes...in Reverse,the idle would bounce up and down! Nothing fixed it,so it went a new GM prom and all the idle problems went away and never came back.
Just wanted to share that...anyways good luck and hope the car brings ya alot of fun now!
Btw,be wary of the ADS Superchips. They work allright but sometimes dont.I had one and threw it away.I bought a new GM prom,IT was UPGRADED by the factory over the years and it ran way better with it.
My ADS Superchip,when I put the car into D,it would stall sometimes...in Reverse,the idle would bounce up and down! Nothing fixed it,so it went a new GM prom and all the idle problems went away and never came back.
Just wanted to share that...anyways good luck and hope the car brings ya alot of fun now!
06-21-2007, 12:30 AM
#46
Race Director
I just realized,and this is for others with similar problems,did you ever check for spark?I posted the other day about checking for it.
You found a bad wire in the cap...car cranks but wont start.Did it ever have some spark or none?Its important to bring up because while it can be a few items at once,without gas or spark,the car wont start when it turns over and cranks.
No spark or fuels helps to track down a ignition or fuel problem real fast,especially when the car cranks but doesnt start.
The Vats is not a likely problem but is soemtimes the case...so for those tracking down problems,do all the basics until your blue in the face.
Still had to hear ya got the car running.DO check your wires again inside the cap and etc.Make sure it doesnt melt or break again,IF there was a cause the first time.Sometimes when a wire melts or breaks,it does happen again.Be sure theres no shorts or chafed wires anywhere near the ignition system.
You found a bad wire in the cap...car cranks but wont start.Did it ever have some spark or none?Its important to bring up because while it can be a few items at once,without gas or spark,the car wont start when it turns over and cranks.
No spark or fuels helps to track down a ignition or fuel problem real fast,especially when the car cranks but doesnt start.
The Vats is not a likely problem but is soemtimes the case...so for those tracking down problems,do all the basics until your blue in the face.
Still had to hear ya got the car running.DO check your wires again inside the cap and etc.Make sure it doesnt melt or break again,IF there was a cause the first time.Sometimes when a wire melts or breaks,it does happen again.Be sure theres no shorts or chafed wires anywhere near the ignition system.
06-21-2007, 12:50 AM
#47
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Thanks for the additional information. Yes, I did check for and had spark 3 or 4 days ago (maybe 5). Of course, given the numerous problems I have had since I started this troubleshooting journey 2 years ago, there's not much that surprises me anymore about the C4 Vettes. The evil gremlin in my car jumped one last time to avoid me and to keep my car from starting.
As a matter of fact, I think one of my last posts on this thread will include all the problems I've encountered and fixed along this journey. When she went down, she went down hard. Beware, though, it's is scary story and it's enough to curl your hair!
As a matter of fact, I think one of my last posts on this thread will include all the problems I've encountered and fixed along this journey. When she went down, she went down hard. Beware, though, it's is scary story and it's enough to curl your hair!
06-21-2007, 01:07 AM
#48
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Grats on fixing your problem.
I've checked the spark on mine also, its generally one of my first checks. Thing I need to do is get the ol test light out and check to see if the injectors are getting a signal. I don't think they are, but just in case. I do have a spare computer to swap in if I can figure out where/how to get it out easily. I've never taken one out of a vette before.
I've checked the spark on mine also, its generally one of my first checks. Thing I need to do is get the ol test light out and check to see if the injectors are getting a signal. I don't think they are, but just in case. I do have a spare computer to swap in if I can figure out where/how to get it out easily. I've never taken one out of a vette before.
I just realized,and this is for others with similar problems,did you ever check for spark?I posted the other day about checking for it.
You found a bad wire in the cap...car cranks but wont start.Did it ever have some spark or none?Its important to bring up because while it can be a few items at once,without gas or spark,the car wont start when it turns over and cranks.
No spark or fuels helps to track down a ignition or fuel problem real fast,especially when the car cranks but doesnt start.
The Vats is not a likely problem but is soemtimes the case...so for those tracking down problems,do all the basics until your blue in the face.
Still had to hear ya got the car running.DO check your wires again inside the cap and etc.Make sure it doesnt melt or break again,IF there was a cause the first time.Sometimes when a wire melts or breaks,it does happen again.Be sure theres no shorts or chafed wires anywhere near the ignition system.
You found a bad wire in the cap...car cranks but wont start.Did it ever have some spark or none?Its important to bring up because while it can be a few items at once,without gas or spark,the car wont start when it turns over and cranks.
No spark or fuels helps to track down a ignition or fuel problem real fast,especially when the car cranks but doesnt start.
The Vats is not a likely problem but is soemtimes the case...so for those tracking down problems,do all the basics until your blue in the face.
Still had to hear ya got the car running.DO check your wires again inside the cap and etc.Make sure it doesnt melt or break again,IF there was a cause the first time.Sometimes when a wire melts or breaks,it does happen again.Be sure theres no shorts or chafed wires anywhere near the ignition system.
06-21-2007, 02:01 AM
#49
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Rico,
The ecm is located behind the passenger side dash area.To get it out,you have to remove the plastic panels under the dash and then remove the 2 10MM screws that hold the bottom of the ecm inside there.
Once you know,learn,where it is,becomes very easy to do and drop down,swap out exchange.What I did when I dropped my ecm I left it on the floor and swapped ecms and did back to back testing,checking voltages and stuff.The ecm wire harness I believe have 3 plugs,white,blue,etc,youll see when you disconnect it.The harness will pull down enough for you to swap ecms for testing without putting it all back.
No need to push the new ecm back inside there,bolt it away,and have no idea if you are fixing the problem.Just more work.Let it hang down there and test away before securing it back inside the dash.
The ecm is located behind the passenger side dash area.To get it out,you have to remove the plastic panels under the dash and then remove the 2 10MM screws that hold the bottom of the ecm inside there.
Once you know,learn,where it is,becomes very easy to do and drop down,swap out exchange.What I did when I dropped my ecm I left it on the floor and swapped ecms and did back to back testing,checking voltages and stuff.The ecm wire harness I believe have 3 plugs,white,blue,etc,youll see when you disconnect it.The harness will pull down enough for you to swap ecms for testing without putting it all back.
No need to push the new ecm back inside there,bolt it away,and have no idea if you are fixing the problem.Just more work.Let it hang down there and test away before securing it back inside the dash.
06-21-2007, 11:11 PM
#51
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No, just swapped in another ECM and it's still running rough, BUT it does start and run for 5 - 10 secs. Still not throwing any codes either.
The starter seems to be loading up while cranking and 8 - 10 cranks kicks the charge right out of the battery. At least the damn thing is starting, so I thank God for small miracles. I'm going to drop the starter motor check it and clean it up, replace the starter solenoid, clean up all the connections - including ground.
It was pretty gummy down there and the connections weren't as tight as they should be. We'll see what onion reveals as I continue to peel away the layers.
The starter seems to be loading up while cranking and 8 - 10 cranks kicks the charge right out of the battery. At least the damn thing is starting, so I thank God for small miracles. I'm going to drop the starter motor check it and clean it up, replace the starter solenoid, clean up all the connections - including ground.
It was pretty gummy down there and the connections weren't as tight as they should be. We'll see what onion reveals as I continue to peel away the layers.
Last edited by red86man; 06-21-2007 at 11:18 PM.
06-23-2007, 12:58 AM
#53
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Thanks for the help.. I'ma give it a try soon!
Rico,
The ecm is located behind the passenger side dash area.To get it out,you have to remove the plastic panels under the dash and then remove the 2 10MM screws that hold the bottom of the ecm inside there.
Once you know,learn,where it is,becomes very easy to do and drop down,swap out exchange.What I did when I dropped my ecm I left it on the floor and swapped ecms and did back to back testing,checking voltages and stuff.The ecm wire harness I believe have 3 plugs,white,blue,etc,youll see when you disconnect it.The harness will pull down enough for you to swap ecms for testing without putting it all back.
No need to push the new ecm back inside there,bolt it away,and have no idea if you are fixing the problem.Just more work.Let it hang down there and test away before securing it back inside the dash.
The ecm is located behind the passenger side dash area.To get it out,you have to remove the plastic panels under the dash and then remove the 2 10MM screws that hold the bottom of the ecm inside there.
Once you know,learn,where it is,becomes very easy to do and drop down,swap out exchange.What I did when I dropped my ecm I left it on the floor and swapped ecms and did back to back testing,checking voltages and stuff.The ecm wire harness I believe have 3 plugs,white,blue,etc,youll see when you disconnect it.The harness will pull down enough for you to swap ecms for testing without putting it all back.
No need to push the new ecm back inside there,bolt it away,and have no idea if you are fixing the problem.Just more work.Let it hang down there and test away before securing it back inside the dash.
06-24-2007, 02:30 AM
#54
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Catching up on the last few days. Just to recap, engine starts and runs labored for brief intervals (5 -10 secs.) and then sputters and dies. On first crank, engine turns fast - almost like there is no load on the engine - and doesn't start. Second crank is the same, but seems like there is a little more load. Again, engine doesn't start. By the third crank, the load is almost normal and it seems like the engine is going to catch, but it doesn't. Fourth crank, the engine starts, sputters and dies. Then the cycle starts all over again.
Suspected that there may be some issues with the starter motor and/or solenoid, so I decided to tear the starter motor and solenoid apart and clean them both up. Solenoid cap had broken boss that captures the tang that prevents the battery connector from turning while tightening retaining nut. Also noted heat damage / discoloration on plastic solenoid cap, so I decided to replace the starter solenoid altogether.
Cleaned all the connectors and bolted it back up and starter seemed to turn much more normally. Car now starts on every crank, but still dies after about 5 - 10 secs. Still peeling the onion...
Right now, it just has to be a timing issue or perhaps the ignition module was damaged partially when the coil melted down. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.
Suspected that there may be some issues with the starter motor and/or solenoid, so I decided to tear the starter motor and solenoid apart and clean them both up. Solenoid cap had broken boss that captures the tang that prevents the battery connector from turning while tightening retaining nut. Also noted heat damage / discoloration on plastic solenoid cap, so I decided to replace the starter solenoid altogether.
Cleaned all the connectors and bolted it back up and starter seemed to turn much more normally. Car now starts on every crank, but still dies after about 5 - 10 secs. Still peeling the onion...
Right now, it just has to be a timing issue or perhaps the ignition module was damaged partially when the coil melted down. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.
06-24-2007, 04:01 PM
#55
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'90 C4 runs then quits & no start
Anyone had this problem..... car starts, runs 10 minutes then quits. I installed new dist cap, rotor, HEI module, fuel filter. I have spark (during the no start condition) and the fuel pump is running (I can hear it). Is this related to the VATS problem I have been reading about ? This seems a bit different in that it will start after sitting over night.
06-25-2007, 12:37 AM
#56
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If the engine starts initially, then VATS isn't a part of your problem. You need to monitor the fuel pressure on the end of the fuel rail and see if it drops out causing the engine to quit after 10 minutes. You could also connect up your timing light and see if it stops after 10 minutes. If ignition is ok, you will see the timing light flash while the engine is coasting to a stop after it quits. Also check for stored error codes.
06-28-2007, 01:17 AM
#57
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Haven't posted in a few days as I've been chasing the gremlin. Down the rabbit hole we go...
The gremlin turns out to be a ground. Ground on the pink Circuit 3 wire which starts on the ignition switch and is supposed to supply +12VDC to a variety of important systems in the "On and Crank" positions. Circuit 3 supplies power to the following systems: - VATS - IGN 1 - IGN 2 - GAUGES - CLSTR - ECM - CRUISE - HORN. There's one or two more that slip my memory right now.
Obviously, a ground on Circuit 3 would affect each of the systems listed above. To any loyal followers of this thread so far, a ground on 3 begins to explain a number of the problems I have noted on this thread and have been troubleshooting.
I dug out the ignition switch the other day - what pain in the @ss!! The ignition switch definitely had some fused contacts and was bad. After having just replaced a new coil that blew the BAT+ wire - not to mention the numerous other problems I've seen, I had to ask myself that maybe the ignition switch wasn't the root cause of the problem. Bad ground, perhaps.
Sure enough, I probed the pink wire and it was grounded. So, I've been pulling fuses, probing wires and popping connectors for the past 2 days solid. You gotta love troubleshooting grounds like I do.
Anyway, it turn outs that the ground on Circuit 3 doesn't actually live on on Circuit 3 at all - it does ground circuit 3 very effectively, but the ground actually lives on Circuit 39. Circuit 39 supplies +12VDC "On and Crank" to the other half of the vehicle. Nice!
I found this when I pulled the GAUGES fuse and the ground on the pink Circuit 3 wires disappeared. Circuit 39 sits on the other side of the GAUGES fuse terminal. How about that for a kick in the head!
Now, I know where the ground lives and I'm going to hunt the b@stage down tomorrow and kill it. Once and for all. It's been one elusive SOB, I've got to tell you. Soon to be dead meat!
The gremlin turns out to be a ground. Ground on the pink Circuit 3 wire which starts on the ignition switch and is supposed to supply +12VDC to a variety of important systems in the "On and Crank" positions. Circuit 3 supplies power to the following systems: - VATS - IGN 1 - IGN 2 - GAUGES - CLSTR - ECM - CRUISE - HORN. There's one or two more that slip my memory right now.
Obviously, a ground on Circuit 3 would affect each of the systems listed above. To any loyal followers of this thread so far, a ground on 3 begins to explain a number of the problems I have noted on this thread and have been troubleshooting.
I dug out the ignition switch the other day - what pain in the @ss!! The ignition switch definitely had some fused contacts and was bad. After having just replaced a new coil that blew the BAT+ wire - not to mention the numerous other problems I've seen, I had to ask myself that maybe the ignition switch wasn't the root cause of the problem. Bad ground, perhaps.
Sure enough, I probed the pink wire and it was grounded. So, I've been pulling fuses, probing wires and popping connectors for the past 2 days solid. You gotta love troubleshooting grounds like I do.
Anyway, it turn outs that the ground on Circuit 3 doesn't actually live on on Circuit 3 at all - it does ground circuit 3 very effectively, but the ground actually lives on Circuit 39. Circuit 39 supplies +12VDC "On and Crank" to the other half of the vehicle. Nice!
I found this when I pulled the GAUGES fuse and the ground on the pink Circuit 3 wires disappeared. Circuit 39 sits on the other side of the GAUGES fuse terminal. How about that for a kick in the head!
Now, I know where the ground lives and I'm going to hunt the b@stage down tomorrow and kill it. Once and for all. It's been one elusive SOB, I've got to tell you. Soon to be dead meat!
06-28-2007, 04:05 PM
#58
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I FOUND THE GROUND! You're not going to believe this one. This is one for the record books.
I will reveal the root cause problem of this very elusive ground in a follow-up post. For now, I'll identify the possible culprits that relate to Circuit 39 and let you all take a few guesses:
- GAUGES Fuse terminal circuit
- VATS Fuse terminal circuit
- Module ASM Low Engine Coolant Indicator circuit
- Key, HD Lamp & Seatbelt Warning Chime circuit
- TCC Brake Switch circuit
- Theft Deterrent Decoder Module to Fuse block circuit
- Dome Lamp Delay Timer circuit
- Vanity Mirror circuit
- Map Light Mirror circuit
- Programmer circuit
- Rear Window Defogger circuit
- Export Harness circuit
- Door Ajar lamp indicator circuit
- Illum lamp indicator circuit
Any guesses from the forum?
I will reveal the root cause problem of this very elusive ground in a follow-up post. For now, I'll identify the possible culprits that relate to Circuit 39 and let you all take a few guesses:
- GAUGES Fuse terminal circuit
- VATS Fuse terminal circuit
- Module ASM Low Engine Coolant Indicator circuit
- Key, HD Lamp & Seatbelt Warning Chime circuit
- TCC Brake Switch circuit
- Theft Deterrent Decoder Module to Fuse block circuit
- Dome Lamp Delay Timer circuit
- Vanity Mirror circuit
- Map Light Mirror circuit
- Programmer circuit
- Rear Window Defogger circuit
- Export Harness circuit
- Door Ajar lamp indicator circuit
- Illum lamp indicator circuit
Any guesses from the forum?
06-28-2007, 10:14 PM
#59
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No wonder you are having so much trouble you don't have a ground problem, you have a 12v power problem!(and worse, you don't know the difference) Wire 39 comes from the gages fuse and goes to S208, a large splice that supplies power to all the places in your long list.
06-29-2007, 09:51 AM
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For everyone else's information, though, the source of the "ground" on the #39 power circuit came from the map light circuit on my rear view mirror. The ribbon cable got pinched between the mount and frame causing an internal short in the cable between the pink / black wire (relative to pin C, circuit 39) and the black wire (relative to pin B, circuit 150).
I'll be putting the car back together today and we'll see if I've finally got all the bugs worked out.
