CentralCoaster

NM I see from the pic that there is no upper control arm, so that beam you're referring to is simply there to prevent axle wrap.

anesthes

More like a third member. Without it, the rear end will rotate. What normally happens to a thirdgen/fourth gen (same setup) when you hop it up, on launch it will break the tranny mount and the tranny will slam the tunnel every time you gas it. Pretty funny, and scares the crap outta the driver the first time it happens. Theres TONS of pressure being put on it, which is why a lot of guys go with a solid mount, Then after that an aftermarket tubular arm because the stamped steal one bends. If you look at the pics, you can see mine was bent to crap from racing with slicks. Again, it's a crappy design.


I kinda like the C4 setup. Maybe because I never had one before last year.. A few guys have retro'd the dana in a thirdgen. waste of money..

More than likely. I hammered most of it out, but it still looked kinda bad. Subframe connectors to stiffen it, then undercoated the whole thing. Built the car first supercharged, ran it, then n/a, drove it once after that but I had been itchin to get a C4. My cousin bought a c4 like 5 years ago and I had driven it a bunch of times, then my buddy bought a '91 ZF6 car that I drove a lot, did a clutch job and a few other things n, etc. One day I got up at like 6am, went down to the shop and by 8pm had the whole car apart and everything recorded in a notebook for ebay. Bought a C4 about 3-4 weeks later at an auction.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I think T5 in C4 will work.

-- Joe

CentralCoaster

Your camaro rear is nosing up and the beam is trying to lift the tail end of the trans, this isn't torquing the trans since it's free to pivot at the trans, as you mentioned the trans hitting the tunnel when the crossmember breaks.

Imagine how much worse it'd be if there was no crossmember, and you simply bolted the beam rigidly to the trans.

Now the diff nosing up is going to torque the hell out of the trans casing, and the weight/momentum of the drivetrain sagging/bouncing is going to torque the hell out of it also. None of this happens on the Fbody. You simply need a stronger crossmember.

I wouldn't expect the T5 case to last on the vette simply based on it's setup in the Camaro.

anesthes

Sorta yeah. It is in a rubber joint so it has some play, but it does put a lot of pressure on the tail shaft. Like i said, it breaks tranny mounts.

Welll. For the fbody application it wouldn't work becuase it's a live axle. If the rear end was stationary like on a c4, than i'd think it would be less pressure. You're making your driveline static, even your driveshaft never changes angle with bumps.

After thinking it through, I think it would be fine. And after seeing both the Keisler, and T56 I know it won't be a problem.

-- Joe

CentralCoaster

The Keisler uses the two lower crossmember holes and puts them in torsion to hold it up. Whether or not that works for them without killing the cases, time will tell.

Even with the Stock C4 setups the trans cases deform and output seals leak in back when overtorquing the cbeam bolts.

anesthes

Starting the swap. Gonna do a T5. Stay tuned.

So far the Theory is:

4+3 Pedals and master
Howe hydraulic TOB
T5 out of an fbody
Custom cbeam adapter plate

Bell housing still up in the air.

-- Joe

Googan

Keep us posted, this will be a cool swap.

lltrevino

6 months later, you are looking for zf 6 tranny parts, anesthes

anesthes

No I'm looking for 4+3 parts (bell housing, pedals, hydraulics). Using a T5 and modified shifter/adapters.

CentralCoaster and I have gone back and forth on this in a pretty detailed fashion in PMs, and he's been very helpful giving me measurements and his 2 cents and experience in doing his ZF swap. Other members such as LD85 have also given their insight. I've done all the calculations and it appears I can do the 700R4 to T5 swap using a lot of 4+3 parts as well as some fabricating for around $1100.

If of course, things blow up in my face, I will be sure to post my results. Either way I'll be posting and letting you guys know the progress. The 700R4 came out last night, and the motor comes out tomorrow. Once I've negotiated with a seller of the pedals and hydraulics, those will go in, and then after a cam change the motor will be back in along with bellhousing. I need to locate a decent T5 and a hurst shifter so I can made an adapter for the Cbeam and start on the shifter rod adapter.

The T5 and 700R4 use the same yoke, and the distance from the block to the tail shaft is the same, so they use the same length driveshaft.

I've taken all the critical measurements down prior to unbolting the 700R4 so I can be sure the pinion angle will be the same with the Cbeam adapter I will construct. When completed I will post the specs and measurements of the adapter, as well as materials. It will be made from 1/4" plate steel and mig welded together.

-- Joe

Dominic Sorresso

I just wish someone would come up with a bellhousing to bolt to the back of the LS and bolt up a ZF.

anesthes

If you really want a 6spd, go with the T56 swap. It's stronger and there are more of them available than the ZF6.

I don't want another war, but I will state the facts. The T56 will bolt up to an ls1 of course, for $199 you can get the tailshaft adapter from pro street unlimited so now it bolts to the Cbeam.

If you have a L98, you can get a wier bellhousing which allows bolting of a stock T56, to a an SBC with traditional flywheel + clutch setup.
(you can use the 4+3 stuff!) It uses a hydraulic throw out bearing, so it's clutch agnostic.

A T56 swap is even better than a T5 swap in terms of strength, and the additional overdrive however I'm 100% positive it will cost more than a straight up ZF swap. ($500 for bell housing + tob, $199 for cbeam adapter, $whoknows for tranny, $250 for a good 11" flywheel, $300 for a good clutch, lots of time and patience).

I'm going with the T5 because the cost of ownership is lower, and I can break about 4 of them for the price of one ZF or T56. I can't use any lower overdrive than the T5 has to offer unless I re-gear my rear-end, or put a stock cam back in it. If I need more 'clutch holding power' I can step up to an 11" clutch by using an aftermarket OR Muncie (think 70s) bell housing + hydraulic throw out bearing.. But I've had pretty good luck with the 10.4" clutch + t5 combo in the fbody's so it should work fine in a lighter car.

-- Joe

BTTB

I made the change to at-56 about2yrs ago in my 86. There where only 2 choices zf6 or t-56. After listening to all the guys with syncro problems and the cost to repair the zf6 I went with a t-56 set up out of a 96 camaro . 550.oo out of ajunk yard for everything. It was alot of work but with the help from Tom at Pro Street Customs who makes the kit to connect the tranny we got it done. Im running around 500 rwhsp and dont baby it. The trans is great and solid as a rock.

anesthes

That's dirt cheap. Mind posting step by step how you did it? A lot of folks have problems with the hydraulics. Do they clear the long tube headers ok, or did you use a hydraulic TOB ?

What did you use for a clutch master cyl? A lot of thirdgen guys find the fbody master in the thirdgen doesn't push enough fluid to work the fourthgen slave.

-- Joe

Dominic Sorresso

Yes, but if you already have a ZF-6 in the car, the economics make the case pretty convincingly.

BTTB

the clutch slave is pretty close to the headers so I wrapped them with a good heat wrap---no problems. I used the stock clutch master with alittle mod to the line. works fine.

anesthes

True. I was thinking more along the lines of guys with 4+3s, or even 700R4's.

I saw some new ZF's on ebay for $1300. thats cheap.

-- Joe

anesthes

Sooo..

A company called "pro street customs" specializes in weird vette stuff. They make a cbeam adapter intended on folks whom wish to put a T56 into their C4 corvette.
They sell this thing for $150

http://www.prostreetcustoms.net/site...56-404x266.jpg

http://www.prostreetcustoms.net/site...l1-548x712.png

Well, GM iwhen they designed the 4th gen they didn't want to redesign the torque arm mounts and such, the T56 and T5 tail shafts appear to have the same mounting bolt pattern. Which means, for $150 the cbeam mounting issue could be resolved.

So I think:

1) new flywheel
2) New clutch
3) Used 4+3 BH,
4) Used 4+3 pedals + hydraulics
5) Cbeam adapter
6) Hurst fbody T5 'offset' shifter
7) Used T5 transmission (v8)

The offset shifter is designed to compensate for the 18* rotation of a fbody bell housing. The shifter base can be taken apart, and the mount reversed so now the shifter will lean over to the drivers side 18*. Then you just heat up the rod that bolts to the mount on the press, and turn it a hair to center in the hole.

Not bad for a 700R4 to T5 swap. If it works.....

UPDATE:

I spoke with Tom who owns pro st. He wants some measurements, but he told me worse case scenario, if I ship him a T5 tailshaft he will modify the adapter and start producing them for T5 swaps.

Again folks, a T5 will bolt the 4+3 bell housing. If you have a 4+3 that blew, this could be a solution for only a couple hundred bucks.

-- Joe

Googan

Awesome, I have a 4+3 and ya never know when it will take a dump. It will be cool if this works so I have an alternative.

CentralCoaster

Who says the ZF bellhousing won't bolt up to it? The block bolt patterns are the same.

CentralCoaster

Everyone should read this before knocking the T5. The T5 and 10.4" clutch aren't first on my list, but that's why it's cheaper. The ring/pinion costs is also an excellent point.

I put a ZF6 in front of 3.07 gears and all I got was a useless 6th gear and a too tall 1st gear. The upgrade to 3.45s cost me another $400 (and headache) in addition to the $1600 spent on the ZF conversion.

I like to see anyone putting the work in to open up the options for everyone else.