LT1 Harmonic Balancer replacement, Day 4... [LONG-With video!]
03-17-2006, 10:52 AM
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St. Jude Donor '05
LT1 Harmonic Balancer replacement, Day 4... [LONG-With video!]
Day three can be found HERE.
So, today I picked up the new oil seals from the dealer and started my battle with the balancer hub.
Over the last three days, I have been dreading this because of all the horror stories I've heard. Let me just get this out in the open now: it ain't that bad. Granted, I have damn near everything removed from the front of the engine, but the hub itself actually came off without too much fuss.
After removing the 5/8" center hub bolt, I bolted up the trusty Kent-Moore LT1 hub puller and started into it.
Picture of puller attached to hub:
http://www.rx7gslse.com/umrswimr/Cor...4/IMG_0810.JPG
First, the puller will fit quite nicely in the space available. What will NOT fit is a socket (which is a stunning 29mm, BTW) Furthermore, the socket will NOT fit through the loop in the PS rack lines, so a socket wrench is entirely out of the question unless you disconnect the PS line. I chose to give it a shot with a wrench (Vice grips, actually, since I lacked a 29mm box end wrench).
The hub was not completely siezed onto the crank and actually came off with little fuss. I was only able to rotate the puller bolt about 180 degrees every time, so it took a while with all the unlatching and latching of the vice grips to get it completely removed.
Once removed, I came to a startling discovery. The puller was stuck between the PS rack and the hub. No amount of twisting, futzing, or pulling would get it out. The Bolt + puller + puller rod + hub + crank is about 2mm too long to allow you to remove it.
I spent more time figuring out how to get the puller out than I did pulling the stupid hub off! 
So I ended up disconnecting the PS line. Had I realized this was going to happen, I would have saved myself the Vice-Grip trouble and just disonnected the line to begin with and used a 1/2" drive ratchet. Needless to say, I'll be installing the ATI damper this way.
Next up was the oil seal. I ended up jamming a screwdriver into the notch at the top of the WP oil seal and prying it out. After a little work, it came out. However, I noticed something: the WP drive shaft is NOT solid. It can be wiggled back and forth a fair amount. Below are two ~8MB .avi files showing this. Please right-click and save-as.
(Up/down)
http://www.rx7gslse.com/umrswimr/Cor...4/MVI_0812.AVI
(Side/Side)
http://www.rx7gslse.com/umrswimr/Cor...4/MVI_0813.AVI
Is this normal? It certainly doesn't look like it! I decided not to remove any more seals until I heard back from you guys as to whether this is a problem. I don't want to install new seals and have to yank the timing cover.
Having called it quits on the seals for the evening, I cleaned up the WP gasket faces with a razer blade and some cleaner and started disassembling the WP in preparation for my electric pump which should arrive today.
Using THESE instructions, I removed the front of the WP and punched out the driveshaft. Let me tell you now- that **** is STUCK in there. I ended up almost completely collapsing the impeller before the shaft finally pressed out.
Looking at the driveshaft, I noticed that there are TWO bearings inside the housing which leads me to believe that perhaps the splined WP output shaft on the engine *might* use the WP as the bearing and perhaps the play I noticed was acceptable?
At any rate, let me know what you guys think.
So, today I picked up the new oil seals from the dealer and started my battle with the balancer hub.
Over the last three days, I have been dreading this because of all the horror stories I've heard. Let me just get this out in the open now: it ain't that bad. Granted, I have damn near everything removed from the front of the engine, but the hub itself actually came off without too much fuss.
After removing the 5/8" center hub bolt, I bolted up the trusty Kent-Moore LT1 hub puller and started into it.
Picture of puller attached to hub:
http://www.rx7gslse.com/umrswimr/Cor...4/IMG_0810.JPG
First, the puller will fit quite nicely in the space available. What will NOT fit is a socket (which is a stunning 29mm, BTW) Furthermore, the socket will NOT fit through the loop in the PS rack lines, so a socket wrench is entirely out of the question unless you disconnect the PS line. I chose to give it a shot with a wrench (Vice grips, actually, since I lacked a 29mm box end wrench).
The hub was not completely siezed onto the crank and actually came off with little fuss. I was only able to rotate the puller bolt about 180 degrees every time, so it took a while with all the unlatching and latching of the vice grips to get it completely removed.
Once removed, I came to a startling discovery. The puller was stuck between the PS rack and the hub. No amount of twisting, futzing, or pulling would get it out. The Bolt + puller + puller rod + hub + crank is about 2mm too long to allow you to remove it.
I spent more time figuring out how to get the puller out than I did pulling the stupid hub off! So I ended up disconnecting the PS line. Had I realized this was going to happen, I would have saved myself the Vice-Grip trouble and just disonnected the line to begin with and used a 1/2" drive ratchet. Needless to say, I'll be installing the ATI damper this way.
Next up was the oil seal. I ended up jamming a screwdriver into the notch at the top of the WP oil seal and prying it out. After a little work, it came out. However, I noticed something: the WP drive shaft is NOT solid. It can be wiggled back and forth a fair amount. Below are two ~8MB .avi files showing this. Please right-click and save-as.
(Up/down)
http://www.rx7gslse.com/umrswimr/Cor...4/MVI_0812.AVI
(Side/Side)
http://www.rx7gslse.com/umrswimr/Cor...4/MVI_0813.AVI
Is this normal? It certainly doesn't look like it! I decided not to remove any more seals until I heard back from you guys as to whether this is a problem. I don't want to install new seals and have to yank the timing cover.
Having called it quits on the seals for the evening, I cleaned up the WP gasket faces with a razer blade and some cleaner and started disassembling the WP in preparation for my electric pump which should arrive today.
Using THESE instructions, I removed the front of the WP and punched out the driveshaft. Let me tell you now- that **** is STUCK in there. I ended up almost completely collapsing the impeller before the shaft finally pressed out.
Looking at the driveshaft, I noticed that there are TWO bearings inside the housing which leads me to believe that perhaps the splined WP output shaft on the engine *might* use the WP as the bearing and perhaps the play I noticed was acceptable?
At any rate, let me know what you guys think.
Last edited by Umrswimr; 03-17-2006 at 10:56 AM.
03-17-2006, 11:00 AM
#2
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This play is normal as it rides on a bearing in the water pump. If you are installing an electric WP you should remove it and plug the hole in the timing cover with the freeze plug supplied with the EWP.
03-17-2006, 11:14 AM
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03-17-2006, 12:10 PM
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St. Jude Donor '03
Originally Posted by Umrswimr
Interesting. The directions HERE make no mention of removing the drive from the TC and plugging the hole. 
Most everyone goes ahead and removes the WP driver and plugs the hole. Now, I have heard of a few people who did not worry about it and just left it there. They said they never had any problems what so ever.
Glad the tool worked well. It definitly costs enough to work well!
03-17-2006, 12:48 PM
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St. Jude Donor '05-'06
Once again good work you are progressing well.It pays to have the right tool for the right job.Jerris gave you the solution to the gear although I have not done the Electric WP swap I have heard to use a freeze plug to seal it.Not sure how to pull the gear mabey Someone else can chime in on that procedure.Others have just put the seal in and let it be and reported no problem.Your choice.Keep it up all the hard work is done it all goes back togther easier.
03-17-2006, 12:49 PM
#6
Race Director
I used the freeze plug to plug the hole in the WATER PUMP. I left the WP driver in place. No leaks NO issues...
03-17-2006, 01:17 PM
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St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by Bluewasp
I used the freeze plug to plug the hole in the WATER PUMP. I left the WP driver in place. No leaks NO issues...
If waspy says it's good, then it's good enough for me!
03-17-2006, 01:19 PM
#8
Safety Car
I see your problem, there are rags stuck in the timing cover!
Good descriptions. Do future CF'ers a favor and save these descriptions and the photos in a Word document or something. Many others can benefit from this info when they get their first C4.
As for the balancer hub, aren't you glad you were prepared for the worst and had an easy time?
I'm with Jerris, I removed my WP drive. I put a plug in the cover (the kind you tap with a hammer to spread open) and coated the heck out of it with black RTV. No leaks.
Lastly, which way did you push out the impeller from the WP? It's counterintuitive from how I thought it would come out. I started trying to push it out through the back before I realized that it's the opposite. And make sure you got the Meziere HD electric pump. It flows 52 gpm vs the normal one which is only 35 gpm.
I've heard many people get screwed and charged $200 for the lower flow pump, which can not keep up with the heat, especially in TX!
Good descriptions. Do future CF'ers a favor and save these descriptions and the photos in a Word document or something. Many others can benefit from this info when they get their first C4.
As for the balancer hub, aren't you glad you were prepared for the worst and had an easy time?
I'm with Jerris, I removed my WP drive. I put a plug in the cover (the kind you tap with a hammer to spread open) and coated the heck out of it with black RTV. No leaks.
Lastly, which way did you push out the impeller from the WP? It's counterintuitive from how I thought it would come out. I started trying to push it out through the back before I realized that it's the opposite. And make sure you got the Meziere HD electric pump. It flows 52 gpm vs the normal one which is only 35 gpm.
I've heard many people get screwed and charged $200 for the lower flow pump, which can not keep up with the heat, especially in TX!
03-17-2006, 02:25 PM
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St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by ScaryFast
Lastly, which way did you push out the impeller from the WP? It's counterintuitive from how I thought it would come out. I started trying to push it out through the back before I realized that it's the opposite. And make sure you got the Meziere HD electric pump. It flows 52 gpm vs the normal one which is only 35 gpm.
I've heard many people get screwed and charged $200 for the lower flow pump, which can not keep up with the heat, especially in TX!
I've heard many people get screwed and charged $200 for the lower flow pump, which can not keep up with the heat, especially in TX!
As for the water pump:
Chit.
Looks like I ordered the 42 GPM one from JEG's which is $199. The 5- GPM H/D version, (which is kinda hidden on their webpage, actually), is $229.
Well, crap. I guess I should've done a little more research.
Worse case scenerio, I'll install this one and if it doesn't cut it, I can dump in on eBay for half of what I paid.
I really don't want to wait until Monday to get the car back together.Live and learn!
Anybody have any idea the flow rate of the OEM pump?
Last edited by Umrswimr; 03-17-2006 at 02:40 PM.
03-17-2006, 03:17 PM
#11
Safety Car
Originally Posted by Umrswimr
I pushed the impeller shaft out the back of the housing as indicated on the directions.
As for the water pump:
Chit.
Looks like I ordered the 42 GPM one from JEG's which is $199. The 5- GPM H/D version, (which is kinda hidden on their webpage, actually), is $229.
As for the water pump:
Chit.
Looks like I ordered the 42 GPM one from JEG's which is $199. The 5- GPM H/D version, (which is kinda hidden on their webpage, actually), is $229.
I don't know why it's so hard to get the HD pump, you'd think that that's the one they would push as it costs more. You're about the 5th person I've heard of that was sold the lower volume version. I almost was, but luckily saw a post about it and was saved.
I don't know the rate of the OEM pump, but they'd have to specify it at various RPM as it's driven off the cam.
You might be ok, I've heard that the smaller pump has issues but I've never seen hard data. And besides, you told me this was a track car, so once you remove your AC and add LT headers your temps will be much lower in the engine compartment, anyway.
03-17-2006, 03:31 PM
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St. Jude Donor '05
Originally Posted by ScaryFast
Oh, you did something smart. I didn't look at the directions
I don't know why it's so hard to get the HD pump, you'd think that that's the one they would push as it costs more. You're about the 5th person I've heard of that was sold the lower volume version. I almost was, but luckily saw a post about it and was saved.
I don't know the rate of the OEM pump, but they'd have to specify it at various RPM as it's driven off the cam.
You might be ok, I've heard that the smaller pump has issues but I've never seen hard data. And besides, you told me this was a track car, so once you remove your AC and add LT headers your temps will be much lower in the engine compartment, anyway.
I don't know why it's so hard to get the HD pump, you'd think that that's the one they would push as it costs more. You're about the 5th person I've heard of that was sold the lower volume version. I almost was, but luckily saw a post about it and was saved.
I don't know the rate of the OEM pump, but they'd have to specify it at various RPM as it's driven off the cam.
You might be ok, I've heard that the smaller pump has issues but I've never seen hard data. And besides, you told me this was a track car, so once you remove your AC and add LT headers your temps will be much lower in the engine compartment, anyway.
When removing the HB hub, the crank rotated about 10 degrees clockwise. In my infinite stupidity, I couldn't think of a clever way to index the crank in the even that this happened. With the hub off, is there an easy way to get the engine back to TDC reliably?
Follow-up: does it even matter? The ATI Superdamper has timing marks on the edge, but would I ever even use them? I mean, it's not like I can mechanically adjust the timing with the opti anyway, right?
03-17-2006, 03:41 PM
#13
Safety Car
Originally Posted by Umrswimr
Last question:
When removing the HB hub, the crank rotated about 10 degrees clockwise. In my infinite stupidity, I couldn't think of a clever way to index the crank in the even that this happened. With the hub off, is there an easy way to get the engine back to TDC reliably?
Follow-up: does it even matter? The ATI Superdamper has timing marks on the edge, but would I ever even use them? I mean, it's not like I can mechanically adjust the timing with the opti anyway, right?
When removing the HB hub, the crank rotated about 10 degrees clockwise. In my infinite stupidity, I couldn't think of a clever way to index the crank in the even that this happened. With the hub off, is there an easy way to get the engine back to TDC reliably?
Follow-up: does it even matter? The ATI Superdamper has timing marks on the edge, but would I ever even use them? I mean, it's not like I can mechanically adjust the timing with the opti anyway, right?
The opti only goes on one way, so you'll have to spin it into the proper position to get it back on, anyway.
Just pay attention to your other thread - don't force it, make sure it sits flush against the timing cover without much effort. Do not start cranking the bolts down to force it against the cover.
The balancer should not matter. If your motor was not balanced internally (seems unlikely, but that's why you're doing this whole excercise in the first place) you're going to have to spin it and try it several times to find the right spot anyway...
03-17-2006, 06:08 PM
#14
Safety Car
Does the ATI Damper have a key way? If so i would use it it wil solve your problem of finding TDC for one thing and will help prevent the thing from spining on the crank. After reading a couple of post about the LT1 hub spining and tering up the crank i bout the keyed version and installed it during my build.
03-18-2006, 10:54 AM
#15
Tech Contributor
Originally Posted by Umrswimr
Last question:
When removing the HB hub, the crank rotated about 10 degrees clockwise. In my infinite stupidity, I couldn't think of a clever way to index the crank in the even that this happened. With the hub off, is there an easy way to get the engine back to TDC reliably?
Follow-up: does it even matter? The ATI Superdamper has timing marks on the edge, but would I ever even use them? I mean, it's not like I can mechanically adjust the timing with the opti anyway, right?
When removing the HB hub, the crank rotated about 10 degrees clockwise. In my infinite stupidity, I couldn't think of a clever way to index the crank in the even that this happened. With the hub off, is there an easy way to get the engine back to TDC reliably?
Follow-up: does it even matter? The ATI Superdamper has timing marks on the edge, but would I ever even use them? I mean, it's not like I can mechanically adjust the timing with the opti anyway, right?
