where to cut to install rollbar?
05-23-2005, 01:10 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
where to cut to install rollbar?
ok I bought a 4 pt weld in roll bar from Phrogs(great deal thats agian man 
)
I am wondering where exactly i cut the fiber glass in the rear of the car to get to the frame. I have a roto zip to cut it so cutting wont be a problem. thanks agian your friend
Sean
) I am wondering where exactly i cut the fiber glass in the rear of the car to get to the frame. I have a roto zip to cut it so cutting wont be a problem. thanks agian your friend
Sean
05-23-2005, 02:34 PM
#3
Le Mans Master
Here:
How to install a four-point roll bar in your C4 Corvette Eric R. Helling
The following is a summary from the experience of multiple recent roll bar installations. I would like to thank: Mike Geyer (and family), Rich Roemer, Mike Woods, and Chuck Wasserott for all their time, patience and assistance in installing my roll bar.
C4 Corvettes frames are torsionally weak. As you have probably realized, it doesn't take a lot of flex to cause the rear and top of your car to creak. One possible solution is to tie the frames together with an additional stiffening bar(s). There are a variety of products out on the market. Rippie markets a, "Stiffer Chassis" bar, which is intended to stiffen the rear but not inhibit rear vision and is not intended to provide true roll over protection. This bar is 1.75 in. dia. and 0.095 thickness, and costs $595. There are similar bars, which are marketed which provide access to stow the targa top. Arizona Speed and Marine markets a harness bar mount which attaches through the upper seat belt anchors, but likely provides little stiffening or rollover protection. This bar costs $325 but is the easiest to install and does not require permanent changes to the car. Finally, there are true 4 point "roll bars" which can be mounted and provide stiffness and roll over protection. These bars all safely provide anchor points for shoulder harnesses. The four-point bar system can be expanded to a 6-point cage in the future if required. They are generally "bolt in" with welded in mounting pads (but can be directly welded in). These bars can be purchased in various wall thicknesses and sizes. I personally got the stoutest bar available as it will meet "tech" for any event in future should the need arise. You additionally may purchase an attached "seat brace" which is a thinner piece of metal which inhibits rearward seat motion. This is required if you are considering SCCA Solo I or similar SCCA type events. If you think this is unlikely, then it is a waste of money and clutters up an otherwise nice looking roll bar.
I purchased a 2.0 in. dia. four point bar with cross brace (standard) and "seat brace". Autopower (San Diego, CA (619) 297-3300) sold it to me for $359.95 plus shipping (including SCCA discount). You can also get camera mounts with the bar. For comparison, Chuck Wasserott purchased the same brand but smaller 1.75 in. (possibly 1.5 in.) dia. bar. The rearward vision in my car is significantly impaired as a result of my bar. The 1.75 bar (which likely meets all tech required for most events) may be the better choice. NCCC rules currently require a 1.5 in. outside dia. bar with a wall thickness of 1/8"for group III cars with roll bars, and a 1.5 in. or 1.75 in. outside dia. bar (wall thickness 1/8 in. and 0.095 in. respectively) for cars requiring roll cages (group III RPAF). A typical 2.0 in. four point bar weighs 38 lbs. I believe a 1.75 in. bar weighs just less than 30 lbs.
There is absolutely no question that the rear of my car is now "tighter". Squeaks from the rear panels are significantly reduced. It also appears the rear "bites" a little better, but with my driving style- it may just make the rear of my car hang out even more... The roll bar itself makes small ticking or tinging noises when flexed, sort of like an exhaust system cooling down. If you have a loud car you will likely not notice this. Unfortunately, I do and it essentially quieted part of the car while replacing it with other new sounds. I personally am very happy I did this; I have been walking a fine line with the safety issue since my car is only NCCC group II and does not require a roll bar (and I have had a couple close calls). Further more, between being belted in tighter with a harness and the rear of the car being tighter, I am hoping to have a more predictable (faster) car this season.
Purchasing a bar: I have compared several bars from various manufacturers and they all seem to have similar or identical mounting points and appearance. There is virtually no flexibility in how to mount a bar so the following instructions will likely fit all four-point roll bars. Rich Roemer has a non AutoPower bar and it is identical.
Initial assessment of the bar: If you wish to do anything to the bar, now is the time. Paint it, wax it or whatever. You may seriously wish to wax it to give it some scuff resistance prior to installation (mine got fairly scuffed).
Car preparation: Remove literally every piece of carpeting, speakers, etc. from the rear of the car. You can install the bar by only removing the side carpeting, but between all the welding and fiberglass cutting- you'll wish you had. Take the plastic interior colored fascia off from the rear door sill (which overlies the carpet). Purchase some high quality respirators/ particle filters for use during cutting. Purchase or borrow a Dremel (or similar) with large reinforced cutting disks. Line up a welder to weld the four mounting plates- this is crucial!! You can easily do this in an afternoon if you have this prearranged. Get at least six large towels and two large blankets for car protection during cutting and welding. Get a battery charger, your back hatch and doors will be open during this entire event (or pull your fuses). You may wish to paint the mounting sites after welding- use black Krylon or similar. You will need something to seal the body openings. Several of us have used fiberglass insulation with good results (the pink insulation stuff in big rolls- you will need a roll). You may want to fabricate thin spacers to raise the roll bar slightly; I used 1/4" heavy-duty particleboard. Buy extra washers and Loctite for the mounting bolts (my bar did not come with washers).
Mounting Pads: You can either weld the bar in directly, or use four mounting plates that match the mounts of the bar. These plates/pads measure 4" (front to rear) x 4 1/4" (side to side) at the front mount and 4" (front to rear) x 3 5/8" (side to side) at the rear mount. There are three boltholes on the inner surface of each pad. Mount these pads to the bar with the appropriate bolts/ washers. I found it easier to mount the bolts pointing down (nut on bottom). You may notice that some of the holes on the bar mounting pad do not meet up well with the holes on the mounting plates. You can flip over the mounting pads or exchange side to side. Having the best overall fit now will pay great dividends later when putting the bar in and out. Prepare the car by laying towels/ blankets over everything (especially your dash board). Take the targa top off.
Cutting the fiberglass for the front mounting pad: the "shoulder" of fiberglass on the front side of the rear compartment will be removed. The lower inside cut should be 2.0" below the flat portion of the shoulder and parallel with the rear compartment floor. The posterior cut will be behind the targa top mounting bolts and approximately 5 1/2" posterior to the front of the shoulder (measured from the shoulder itself) and 4.0" in length. The outer cut (connecting the front cut and posterior cut) should be 4.0" lateral to where the flat surface and angled surfaces of the "shoulder” meet. The front cut is also 4.0" in length and squares off the remaining cuts. (See Figure one for cut outlines) There will be a rivet on the top surface of the shoulder posterior to your cuts that attaches to a metal mounting plate for the targa top screws. Find it through the sound deadener and drill it out. (See Figure two) The "shoulder" will now be free. Do not make these cuts too deep or you will cut into the actual frame. Be especially careful near the drivers' front cuts- there is wiring below your cuts. You will have to refine these cuts once they are made to allow at least 1/2" (probably more) space around the bar mounts to avoid squeaks and allow the welder good access. Do not compromise on the margins to get a "tight fit"- you'll regret it later. Mark all your planned cuts with chalk and adjust side to side for symmetry. Mark the rear cuts as well before any cutting.
Cutting the fiberglass for the rear mounting pads: You will make similar, but more posteriorly based cuts in the "shoulder" of the rear compartment. The front cut is 13" from the front of the shoulder and the rear cut is an additional 5 3/4" from the front cut. The lower inner cut is 3 1/2" down from the edge of the "shoulder" and the outer cut is 3.0" lateral to the inner shoulder edge. (See Figure one again) You will again likely modify these cuts slightly, but this should be a very close ballpark.
Fitting the Roll Bar: The easiest way to fit the roll bar with the smallest cuts required is from the front. The front mount cuts will have to be much larger if you try to fit it from the rear. I had to grind off the passenger clothes hanger hook to get my bar to fit. The 1.75" bars apparently fit without doing this. Make sure nothing will rub and there is plenty of space for welding. An arc welder may fit in tighter places, but a MIG/ TIG welder will need additional room to fit the nozzle/ wire feeder. Find this out before going to the welder. The mounting pads will not fit perfectly on the frame. You may want to do a small amount of grinding to get a better fit, but essentially the welder will fill all this in. Make sure there is enough room to get the bolts on and off using a wrench. Go to the welder.
At the Welder: Disconnect battery. Cover back and interior with wet towels. There will be plenty of slag and it will just burn through car covers, dry towels, etc. and ruin your car. Make sure to lay some wet towels behind the seats, as this is where a lot of the slag will fall. I am aware of a Mustang that CAUGHT FIRE during this. You will be very happy you removed your interior at this point. Have the welder tack weld the mounting pads in two places each. Unbolt the roll bar (be careful- bring some gloves). The welder will now completely fill in all the surrounding area to be welded.
Refit Roll Bar: check to see if any slag prevents roll bar from sitting absolutely flat. You will likely have to grind down some of the peripheral welding. Paint with Krylon or similar if so desired. Completely clean your car at this time. A good shop vac and all those wet towels works well.
Sound proof cutouts: I have heard several ideas on how to sound/weather proof the cutouts. I've read and heard about the foam insulation that can be placed in the area and then hardens. It reportedly works well from an insulation standpoint, but is very difficult to remove at a later point. I've also heard that this may squeak. People have also written about drilling a hole in the roll bar itself and filling it with foam insulation. Reportedly it reduces resonance (which I have not noted) and the tinging sounds from the bar. We took "pink" household insulation and packed it into the openings very tightly. The backing side was the furthest into the opening. Then duct tape over this. We'll see how well this holds up. No one who has tried this in recent times has ended up with pink fluff ***** coming from their car- but time will tell. Regardless, it's really easy, quick, cheap and easy to undo or replace if there is a problem. My car is absolutely silent to road noise and there is no draft whatsoever.
Replace insulation and speakers: fold the excess insulation into the openings for the cutouts if it will fit. You can also fold it back where it overlies the mount openings and then layback down when the bar's in.
Cutting the carpet to fit the bar: You will need to very carefully cut the carpet in two spots on each side. The front cut should be in the form of an "X" and located just behind the front shoulder of the carpet, but IN FRONT of the existing previous cut for the targa top assembly. At all costs, do not connect these. The center of the "X" should be about midway between the front shoulder and the existing cutout. The "X" should just touch the point where the carpet starts to drape upward to the interior light. If done correctly, the front pad can be carefully placed through this and the carpet/ rubber backing will stretch around the bar. The carpet will roll under and give a very professional fitted look. The existing hole directly behind this will nearly close, and the residual hole can be patched with a small square of carpet harvested from elsewhere and some duct tape or glue to hold it in place. The rear carpet cuts are slightly different. You will cut a "Y" in the carpet with the two short limbs of the "Y" facing to the rear (the single limb facing forward). The junction of the three limbs of the "Y" should be located in line with the leading edge of the speaker cover. The "Y" will be located on the flat portion of the carpet shoulder, approximately 2 1/4" from the inner shoulder and 1 1/2" from where the carpet turns up again on the outside. The net result is that the roll bar is positioned at the outer portion of the flat surface of the carpet "shoulder". Slide the carpet over the rear-mounting pad. NOTE: it is easier to do the rear first and then front because you can slide the carpet forward on the rear bar. Please look at another C4 while doing this; it will give you perspective on where to make the cuts. There are several landmarks that you can key on to locate these cuts, such as the impression of the speaker cover (see Figure three). Adjust as needed for your car.
Bolt in the roll bar: I initially fit the roll bar and found that rear vision was poor and I had some extra space above the bar. I ultimately placed 1/4" hard particleboard spacers between the mounting pads and roll bar. They were cut to the exact same size as the mounting pads. I believe this may also act as a mild sound suppressor. This actually did improve rearward vision somewhat. Check to make sure you are totally happy with fit, now is the time to do any final drilling, etc. Bolt down bar evenly. Apply Loctite. Carpet will now drape down naturally. Adjust to fit. A small X-acto knife is helpful if any of the carpet cuts need to be slightly extended in any direction. Take your time. My carpet looks exactly like it did before the roll bar. Replace trim and speaker covers.
ENJOY!!!!! Eric Helling
P.s.: a roll bar is a great mounting point for a child seat!!!
How to install a four-point roll bar in your C4 Corvette Eric R. Helling
The following is a summary from the experience of multiple recent roll bar installations. I would like to thank: Mike Geyer (and family), Rich Roemer, Mike Woods, and Chuck Wasserott for all their time, patience and assistance in installing my roll bar.
C4 Corvettes frames are torsionally weak. As you have probably realized, it doesn't take a lot of flex to cause the rear and top of your car to creak. One possible solution is to tie the frames together with an additional stiffening bar(s). There are a variety of products out on the market. Rippie markets a, "Stiffer Chassis" bar, which is intended to stiffen the rear but not inhibit rear vision and is not intended to provide true roll over protection. This bar is 1.75 in. dia. and 0.095 thickness, and costs $595. There are similar bars, which are marketed which provide access to stow the targa top. Arizona Speed and Marine markets a harness bar mount which attaches through the upper seat belt anchors, but likely provides little stiffening or rollover protection. This bar costs $325 but is the easiest to install and does not require permanent changes to the car. Finally, there are true 4 point "roll bars" which can be mounted and provide stiffness and roll over protection. These bars all safely provide anchor points for shoulder harnesses. The four-point bar system can be expanded to a 6-point cage in the future if required. They are generally "bolt in" with welded in mounting pads (but can be directly welded in). These bars can be purchased in various wall thicknesses and sizes. I personally got the stoutest bar available as it will meet "tech" for any event in future should the need arise. You additionally may purchase an attached "seat brace" which is a thinner piece of metal which inhibits rearward seat motion. This is required if you are considering SCCA Solo I or similar SCCA type events. If you think this is unlikely, then it is a waste of money and clutters up an otherwise nice looking roll bar.
I purchased a 2.0 in. dia. four point bar with cross brace (standard) and "seat brace". Autopower (San Diego, CA (619) 297-3300) sold it to me for $359.95 plus shipping (including SCCA discount). You can also get camera mounts with the bar. For comparison, Chuck Wasserott purchased the same brand but smaller 1.75 in. (possibly 1.5 in.) dia. bar. The rearward vision in my car is significantly impaired as a result of my bar. The 1.75 bar (which likely meets all tech required for most events) may be the better choice. NCCC rules currently require a 1.5 in. outside dia. bar with a wall thickness of 1/8"for group III cars with roll bars, and a 1.5 in. or 1.75 in. outside dia. bar (wall thickness 1/8 in. and 0.095 in. respectively) for cars requiring roll cages (group III RPAF). A typical 2.0 in. four point bar weighs 38 lbs. I believe a 1.75 in. bar weighs just less than 30 lbs.
There is absolutely no question that the rear of my car is now "tighter". Squeaks from the rear panels are significantly reduced. It also appears the rear "bites" a little better, but with my driving style- it may just make the rear of my car hang out even more... The roll bar itself makes small ticking or tinging noises when flexed, sort of like an exhaust system cooling down. If you have a loud car you will likely not notice this. Unfortunately, I do and it essentially quieted part of the car while replacing it with other new sounds. I personally am very happy I did this; I have been walking a fine line with the safety issue since my car is only NCCC group II and does not require a roll bar (and I have had a couple close calls). Further more, between being belted in tighter with a harness and the rear of the car being tighter, I am hoping to have a more predictable (faster) car this season.
Purchasing a bar: I have compared several bars from various manufacturers and they all seem to have similar or identical mounting points and appearance. There is virtually no flexibility in how to mount a bar so the following instructions will likely fit all four-point roll bars. Rich Roemer has a non AutoPower bar and it is identical.
Initial assessment of the bar: If you wish to do anything to the bar, now is the time. Paint it, wax it or whatever. You may seriously wish to wax it to give it some scuff resistance prior to installation (mine got fairly scuffed).
Car preparation: Remove literally every piece of carpeting, speakers, etc. from the rear of the car. You can install the bar by only removing the side carpeting, but between all the welding and fiberglass cutting- you'll wish you had. Take the plastic interior colored fascia off from the rear door sill (which overlies the carpet). Purchase some high quality respirators/ particle filters for use during cutting. Purchase or borrow a Dremel (or similar) with large reinforced cutting disks. Line up a welder to weld the four mounting plates- this is crucial!! You can easily do this in an afternoon if you have this prearranged. Get at least six large towels and two large blankets for car protection during cutting and welding. Get a battery charger, your back hatch and doors will be open during this entire event (or pull your fuses). You may wish to paint the mounting sites after welding- use black Krylon or similar. You will need something to seal the body openings. Several of us have used fiberglass insulation with good results (the pink insulation stuff in big rolls- you will need a roll). You may want to fabricate thin spacers to raise the roll bar slightly; I used 1/4" heavy-duty particleboard. Buy extra washers and Loctite for the mounting bolts (my bar did not come with washers).
Mounting Pads: You can either weld the bar in directly, or use four mounting plates that match the mounts of the bar. These plates/pads measure 4" (front to rear) x 4 1/4" (side to side) at the front mount and 4" (front to rear) x 3 5/8" (side to side) at the rear mount. There are three boltholes on the inner surface of each pad. Mount these pads to the bar with the appropriate bolts/ washers. I found it easier to mount the bolts pointing down (nut on bottom). You may notice that some of the holes on the bar mounting pad do not meet up well with the holes on the mounting plates. You can flip over the mounting pads or exchange side to side. Having the best overall fit now will pay great dividends later when putting the bar in and out. Prepare the car by laying towels/ blankets over everything (especially your dash board). Take the targa top off.
Cutting the fiberglass for the front mounting pad: the "shoulder" of fiberglass on the front side of the rear compartment will be removed. The lower inside cut should be 2.0" below the flat portion of the shoulder and parallel with the rear compartment floor. The posterior cut will be behind the targa top mounting bolts and approximately 5 1/2" posterior to the front of the shoulder (measured from the shoulder itself) and 4.0" in length. The outer cut (connecting the front cut and posterior cut) should be 4.0" lateral to where the flat surface and angled surfaces of the "shoulder” meet. The front cut is also 4.0" in length and squares off the remaining cuts. (See Figure one for cut outlines) There will be a rivet on the top surface of the shoulder posterior to your cuts that attaches to a metal mounting plate for the targa top screws. Find it through the sound deadener and drill it out. (See Figure two) The "shoulder" will now be free. Do not make these cuts too deep or you will cut into the actual frame. Be especially careful near the drivers' front cuts- there is wiring below your cuts. You will have to refine these cuts once they are made to allow at least 1/2" (probably more) space around the bar mounts to avoid squeaks and allow the welder good access. Do not compromise on the margins to get a "tight fit"- you'll regret it later. Mark all your planned cuts with chalk and adjust side to side for symmetry. Mark the rear cuts as well before any cutting.
Cutting the fiberglass for the rear mounting pads: You will make similar, but more posteriorly based cuts in the "shoulder" of the rear compartment. The front cut is 13" from the front of the shoulder and the rear cut is an additional 5 3/4" from the front cut. The lower inner cut is 3 1/2" down from the edge of the "shoulder" and the outer cut is 3.0" lateral to the inner shoulder edge. (See Figure one again) You will again likely modify these cuts slightly, but this should be a very close ballpark.
Fitting the Roll Bar: The easiest way to fit the roll bar with the smallest cuts required is from the front. The front mount cuts will have to be much larger if you try to fit it from the rear. I had to grind off the passenger clothes hanger hook to get my bar to fit. The 1.75" bars apparently fit without doing this. Make sure nothing will rub and there is plenty of space for welding. An arc welder may fit in tighter places, but a MIG/ TIG welder will need additional room to fit the nozzle/ wire feeder. Find this out before going to the welder. The mounting pads will not fit perfectly on the frame. You may want to do a small amount of grinding to get a better fit, but essentially the welder will fill all this in. Make sure there is enough room to get the bolts on and off using a wrench. Go to the welder.
At the Welder: Disconnect battery. Cover back and interior with wet towels. There will be plenty of slag and it will just burn through car covers, dry towels, etc. and ruin your car. Make sure to lay some wet towels behind the seats, as this is where a lot of the slag will fall. I am aware of a Mustang that CAUGHT FIRE during this. You will be very happy you removed your interior at this point. Have the welder tack weld the mounting pads in two places each. Unbolt the roll bar (be careful- bring some gloves). The welder will now completely fill in all the surrounding area to be welded.
Refit Roll Bar: check to see if any slag prevents roll bar from sitting absolutely flat. You will likely have to grind down some of the peripheral welding. Paint with Krylon or similar if so desired. Completely clean your car at this time. A good shop vac and all those wet towels works well.
Sound proof cutouts: I have heard several ideas on how to sound/weather proof the cutouts. I've read and heard about the foam insulation that can be placed in the area and then hardens. It reportedly works well from an insulation standpoint, but is very difficult to remove at a later point. I've also heard that this may squeak. People have also written about drilling a hole in the roll bar itself and filling it with foam insulation. Reportedly it reduces resonance (which I have not noted) and the tinging sounds from the bar. We took "pink" household insulation and packed it into the openings very tightly. The backing side was the furthest into the opening. Then duct tape over this. We'll see how well this holds up. No one who has tried this in recent times has ended up with pink fluff ***** coming from their car- but time will tell. Regardless, it's really easy, quick, cheap and easy to undo or replace if there is a problem. My car is absolutely silent to road noise and there is no draft whatsoever.
Replace insulation and speakers: fold the excess insulation into the openings for the cutouts if it will fit. You can also fold it back where it overlies the mount openings and then layback down when the bar's in.
Cutting the carpet to fit the bar: You will need to very carefully cut the carpet in two spots on each side. The front cut should be in the form of an "X" and located just behind the front shoulder of the carpet, but IN FRONT of the existing previous cut for the targa top assembly. At all costs, do not connect these. The center of the "X" should be about midway between the front shoulder and the existing cutout. The "X" should just touch the point where the carpet starts to drape upward to the interior light. If done correctly, the front pad can be carefully placed through this and the carpet/ rubber backing will stretch around the bar. The carpet will roll under and give a very professional fitted look. The existing hole directly behind this will nearly close, and the residual hole can be patched with a small square of carpet harvested from elsewhere and some duct tape or glue to hold it in place. The rear carpet cuts are slightly different. You will cut a "Y" in the carpet with the two short limbs of the "Y" facing to the rear (the single limb facing forward). The junction of the three limbs of the "Y" should be located in line with the leading edge of the speaker cover. The "Y" will be located on the flat portion of the carpet shoulder, approximately 2 1/4" from the inner shoulder and 1 1/2" from where the carpet turns up again on the outside. The net result is that the roll bar is positioned at the outer portion of the flat surface of the carpet "shoulder". Slide the carpet over the rear-mounting pad. NOTE: it is easier to do the rear first and then front because you can slide the carpet forward on the rear bar. Please look at another C4 while doing this; it will give you perspective on where to make the cuts. There are several landmarks that you can key on to locate these cuts, such as the impression of the speaker cover (see Figure three). Adjust as needed for your car.
Bolt in the roll bar: I initially fit the roll bar and found that rear vision was poor and I had some extra space above the bar. I ultimately placed 1/4" hard particleboard spacers between the mounting pads and roll bar. They were cut to the exact same size as the mounting pads. I believe this may also act as a mild sound suppressor. This actually did improve rearward vision somewhat. Check to make sure you are totally happy with fit, now is the time to do any final drilling, etc. Bolt down bar evenly. Apply Loctite. Carpet will now drape down naturally. Adjust to fit. A small X-acto knife is helpful if any of the carpet cuts need to be slightly extended in any direction. Take your time. My carpet looks exactly like it did before the roll bar. Replace trim and speaker covers.
ENJOY!!!!! Eric Helling
P.s.: a roll bar is a great mounting point for a child seat!!!
05-23-2005, 02:39 PM
#6
Drifting
Thread Starter
05-23-2005, 03:02 PM
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
sweet i already had most of the preping done aka gutted back.
painted roll bar. and tools.. aka welder(mig 12 volt) and roto zip aka large azz dremel...
thanks agian your friend
Sean
painted roll bar. and tools.. aka welder(mig 12 volt) and roto zip aka large azz dremel...
thanks agian your friend
Sean
05-23-2005, 05:09 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
Pictures sent.
If that is an old DRM bar you bought from JP (phrogs) I helped him cut that beatch out of that car and it sure was a tough son of a gun to get out.
The above install procedures might not be exact since those are for an auto power bar and not a DRM.
Have fun,
Ed
If that is an old DRM bar you bought from JP (phrogs) I helped him cut that beatch out of that car and it sure was a tough son of a gun to get out.
The above install procedures might not be exact since those are for an auto power bar and not a DRM.
Have fun,
Ed
05-23-2005, 07:46 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by 4bblC4
somebody should post some pictures and make this a tech article.
Junkyard dog gave me the great idea with the shop vac.
I also used a few pieces of MDL wood between the pads (welded to frame) and roll bar (bolted to pads). The wood let me shim the bar close to the hoop. Worked very good and I had the bar, from start to finish, done in 1 day.
Ed
