jsup

A while back there was a thread about having your car serviced by a mechanic. There's a thread on here which points out EXACTLY what the problem is. It's about transmission noise. I commented in that thread but felt the hijack was bad manners, so I started this. Below are my comments.

A while back there was a thread that said "how to talk to a service manager if you must"

One of my points was that customers don't understand the value of a guy's time. The above post which drove me to posting this can be quoted as such ""Some mechanic wants $60 just to check it out! Outrageous! " This is the root of the problem. Is the shop owner supposed to hang around all day and tell people what's wrong with their car FOR FREE? I think the $60 is "go away" money. and I DON'T BLAME THE SHOP OWNER FOR DOING IT!

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that becuase someone thinks they should get a $60 freebee is a ticket to rip off the next guy, but if you can only WORK 40 billible minutes per hour, doesn't that rate go up becuase your cost per hour is consistent?

I cite the third post in the thread:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1549427567

If the mechanic had ten of these a day, let's say 20 minutes each from start to finish, that's just 3.5 hours out of his day he's not getting paid for. And for what, to tell someone what's wrong with their car so they can go fix it cheaper? Then what is he supposed to charge for the other 4.5 hours of the day when he has paying customers. Think these people bitch it's too expensive???

Sorry, people's time is worth money. I wouldn't go to work for free, and I don't expect anyone else to work for free.

Here's a good example I took it off a boating site where I buy some parts:

There is an apocryphal story about "photographer-to-the great" Yosuf Karsh (may have misspelled his name) who used to charge $10,000 a portrait against an old army blanket. He would place his subjects there, fiddle a minute with the lights, and shoot off a few photos (believe he used an 8 x 10 so had to change the plates) but in all, about 5 to 10 minutes. He would then tell his clients he had finished.

What? They would say, $10,000 and you just took 5 minutes?

Ah, came the answer, but it has taken me 40 (or maybe it was 50) years to be able to take a beautiful portrait in 5 minutes....

Same as the famous surgeon called into the operating room, who examines the patient carefully, reviews the x-rays and steps up to the table and makes his incision. He then turns to the other surgeons, says "You may continue" and walks out. The patient, aghast at the $10,000 invoice for 5 minutes and one cut, complains. The surgeon replies, "The $10,000 is for knowing where to cut."

And you're right, Bunky. This does apply to many of us. Most of us are quite dedicated to our profession, craft or trade. We work very hard to stay up-to-date, remain knowledgeable and creative. We do a great deal 'behind the scenes' to be able to make our work look effortless.

I suppose that's why Doctors, Clergy and CPAs all worked hard to keep their professions cloaked in mysticism. The more obscure their work, the more they could charge.

So be glad you have the MASTERTECHS expert advice available here, and please support my effort with a parts order!!

Rich Silvestris

John,

I applaud your passionate conviction to performing a job well, and I agree that preparation to do so can take a lot of time and resources. Perhaps you can shed some light though, on a recent experience. I was lending an older car to my son. I wasn't satisfied with the brakes' perfromance in the last few feet: it seemed to glide rather than grunt to a stop. After replacing pads, checking the rotors and ensuring all the calipers were working and gliding side-to-side appropriately, I decided to let the dealership take a look at it. I told them specifically what my concern was and what I had already checked. I expected them to come up with something about the ABS. They held on to it for most of the day, and took it in around 2PM (I know, because I called a few times). At 2:20, they called me and told me all the rotors and pads and two of the calipers had to be replaced. Cost? $2400. Now the car (a 93 Accord) is worth about $1500. They charged me $89. to perform a "diagnostic" service. It was and will be the last $ they ever get from me. What did I have the right to expect in this case? I thought they would at least try to bleed the brakes, or recommend it. I'm trying to keep this short. It's not really C4 stuff. Do you get where I'm going with it? I believe that they were being opportunistic: they'd either get me for a huge repair bill, or scare me away for $89. Can you shed any light on my experience?

jsup

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending this kind of stuff. Brakes are the biggest ripoff going.

Considering your competence in putting on the new brakes and assessing that there was nothing wrong with the calipers, this could be a perfect example of a rip off.

ESPECIALLY from a dealer that charges $90 for an assesment.

My opinion, they should charge to determine what has to be done. Then provide an estimante, then roll the first charge into the job.

This is the way I do it at work. I charge for the specs on a job, if the customer takes the job, I roll the spec price in and deduct it from the work done. This way I'm not doing free specs for another vendor to copy and underbid me.

All I am saying is that by NOT charging for diagnostics drives the price of all other jobs up. My point is that everyone wants everything as cheap as possible and no one is allowed, other than them, to make a decent living.

It sounds like you got ripped off. I don't go to dealers or chain stores for this reason. I have a competent, local mechanic who does the work I don't want to do.

The last time I went to a chain, ETD,(about 10 years ago) I needed two tires. They lied about the price " that was without balancing and mounting". LIke I need an unbalanced, unmounted tire. THEN they put on FOUR when I only asked for TWO.

I understand that there are theivs out there. My point is that these "freebees" hurt the honest guys.

jsup

My sister had her timing belt changed, so in the mean time they changed the water pump. The water pump went after 12,000 miles.

The shop, the one I go to, replaced it with a new pump, NO CHARGE.

The point is if that's the kind of service you want, when the guy wants $60 to look something over, don't bitch. Also, I am sure this guy isn't the cheapest guy around either.

Rant off. In through the nose.......

Rich Silvestris

Thanks for your response. I, too, deal with small shops as much as possible, and get to know the guys who are going to work on the car personally. When I do that, I pay for all time worked, but it usually results in a good repair for a price that can be understood. The experience I related in the above, shows what can happen in the "up-sell" repair world.

eschoendorff

I like this thread because it gives me a glimpse into the inner workings of a profession that I would not otherwise get to see.

I also understand the frustration of putting a lot of time into something a not really getting paid for it. I am a teacher by profession (although with my amazing inability to type well you probably wouldn't guess it). I figure that I spend only about 40% of my time actually teaching my students. The other 60% is spent in meetings, working on schedules, working out logistics, planning lessons, etc. And then there is the time that is put in before and after hours just because stuff needs to get done. In the end, though, I am doing what I do for the kids, so that's a special kind of reward for me. That reward doesn't pay the bills, though.

For you guys that put the extra time and effort into whatever it is you do, please remember that for every 10 people that couldn't care less there is at least one person who really appreciates your time and effort. Even if it is just "your job."

dizwiz24

Youve got a great point.

Time is money.

Usually I do the work myself on my vette, however,

Ive found that after 'building a relationship' with a well-known trusted mechanic in my town that his costs have gone down to me on jobs I cant do.

When I say building a relationship, Im talking about not bugging him, chit-chatting about random stuff if he has time, actually paying him some money when he spent some time repairing something for free, etc.

Overall convincing him Im a nice guy.

I dont mind having some of my $ go this guy.


However, I think it all depends. This guy is honest, whereas some mechanics would likely take advantage.

1chicken

IMO a shop/tech that is proud and can fix todays cars is worth well in excess of 100.00 a hour! and I mean to the tech, not the store!!!! Training has gone to crap! their almost self-trained and on a new vehicle with all the class 2 and gmlan modules (15 of em is normal now) and thats just this year! Doctors don't need to know half as much different stuff! I know alot of people on this forum know alot... because its of interest to you... but try making a living on everyones car, not just vettes. I have been in the biz for 23 years and spent an hour on friday just getting a 05 pickup radio programed! most of wich was on the phone with techline support just to get the proper software onto my server!
I forgot to mention that almost half of the work coming into the shops today are "wait jobs" seems the general public thinks fixing cars is like flipping burgers!
i.e. "I'll just hit the drive through"!!!!
So now... Fix it fast, right, and cheap.... while being watched!!!
Sorry don't see it happening.
Oh, and also who is getting into this field?? most of the younger techs I have worked with I wouldn't let work on my wheelbarrel! They would rather play Playstation! Not to knock playstation... I love mine but when it comes to making a living....

Sorry... there was this soapbox just sitting there so I jumped on...

clearwater_shark

This doesnt have to do with vettes or even cars but service based is service based ya know?

I own a small chain of computer stores on the east coast called Priority PC i was shot in the knee during dessert storm in 91 and got out of the Army in 94 and in 1996 i opened my first shop with a hundred bucks in my pocket and a snap-on ratcheting screwdriver
(lol that i still have and use everyday) and a lot of breath holding. Today i have 3 in the western NY / PA area and one here in Florida (Tampa bay area). I always give free estimates, i tell people to bring in the system and ill look it over tell them whats wrong and what it will cost to fix it. i DO lose money and i DO lose time because some people will take the info and "decide" to fix it themselves, but thats ok because 90 percent of the folks just have us do the work. The ones that upset me are the ones that "decide to fix it themselves" and then they get it home go to best buy and get the part they need and then when they cant figure it out they have the nerve to call me and ask me HOW to do it! LOL or even better a guy buys a Dell and has a problem and calls me and expects me to spend 2 hours on the phone with him telling him how to fix the machine he bought from somone else... you know? Never has set foot in my business but EXPECTS me to help him because the company he DID buy from had tech support but nobody can understand their broken english (or is that Engrish)!

And i will go one step further along theese lines YES there are theives in this field too and they hurt ALL of us. I charge 50 bucks an hour and most jobs end up costing around 50 to 75 in labor, one of my competitors charges 25 an hour BUT his gig is he will charge you for every second its on his bench even if its being scanned in the background i only charge the time i or one of my techs is actually working on it. His average labor costs are between 100 and 150 per job so it goes both ways


Grant

1chicken

I hear ya Grant!
I love those "free" phone help line calls. I get paged all day long with em,
we call them "Triva pickup line 1017!"
Guess what... thats my extension!

clearwater_shark

LOL i love that!

warren s

I remember when an estimate to fix almost anything was free. I frequently do work on cars and computers. I dont have any overhead or staff to pay so I dont charge for an estimate unless i have to travel to a site, (network problem).

Anytime I had to have a major job done on my car, it was few and far between I always asked how much the estimate will cost.

The same way I asked Vonage how much does the 24.99 package cost?

I think people are more put off by expecting something for free and finding out its not, than by actually having to pay if they know ahead of time what the price is.

jsup

I am sorry if this was a bit off topic. I was picking up off the original thread of the same nature. When I saw the post I cited in the begining, it so clearly demonstrated my point.

The computer example is good one. On shop's rate is X but the end result is 2X from the competitor.

All I am saying is that if people CHOOSE to do estimates for free, they are doing you a favor, we as consumers shouldn't expect it. WE should appreciate those who do free estimates, not despise those who value thier time differently for what ever reason. If a shop has 20 jobs that day, does he not do one to give a "free" estimate? Doesn't he have the right to charge rather than give up the opportunity costs of paying customers?

Also, that at the end of the day, there's two elements, the cost of doing business, and profit. Those are basically FIXED costs, one way or the other you'll wind up paying.

As I like to say.........CHEAP, FAST, WORKS, pick any two.

cv67

Seems like most techs today have to spend most of thier time getting the right software, or getting through to a worthless tech support line=Guess that's why I take it easy on my mechanic-How can you make money when you're on the phone or fixing machines that break all the time? Granted, not my problem, BUT I've watched this guy go through this numertous times while going to chek on my car and can see the frustration. Seems like shops need one guy sorting those problems out all day long, and a couple of r&r wrenchers going at the same time.

1chicken

And in my shop its me! Job title: "the guy standing at the bottom of the hill" you know s...... rolls downhill!

Kwikerthanu

I take all my cars to one mechanic. He's one of the best I've seen in a long time. He pulls no punches, if he can't work on it or fix it he tells you before he even looks at it. Never had anything yet he couldn't fix mechanicalwise. He's fair with his prices. Biggest problem is getting your car in. He's always busy. Must be good at what he does.