ZR1991

Hello, I would like to comment on my C4's handling, and tell you about an incident, and ask advice from the members, if possible.

I would like to tell you a bit of background, because I can tell the story much quicker if you have the context. I have had several high performance cars dating back to the '60's. The more outlandish even included my Shelby replica retired bracket racer that had a 6-7 pound per horsepower ratio, and had been retired to the street. So I am used to handling cars that can be at the limit of street use. That doesn't however, make me a competent road racer by any means. In the last few years, I have had health problems due to heart disease and an unknown blood disorder that caused me to react to a drug used in bypass surgery, and cost me my left leg. Despite a successful multi year malpractice suit (if any such action is ever "successful"), money has been very tight, and I have sold all of my cars over time. All, that is, except my ZR1, which I thoroughy enjoy driving, and which has been a wonderful car. So that is the background.

I have noticed an odd handling trait in the C4. I have had other independant rear suspension cars that have not had this trait, but none of them had anything like the power of the Corvette, so maybe it is a power issue. The trait is like this. If you get the rear tires near breaking loose (not spinning, but where one still has adhesion), and especially if the right breaks loose first, the rear of the car will suddenly and sharply hop to the left. If you steer left and handle the throttle wrong (say, let off), you find that you have over corrected, and the rear suddenly hops to the right, and you can lose control. There is a popular video on the net of it happening to a C5. In the video, you can see the car break loose, and the right to left oscillation gets worse until the driver winds up in a tree on the left side. And all of it at very slow speed! Here is the link: http://texas.clubsi.com/roger/videos/ (C5 upatree).

This happened to me once. I was pulling out of my subdivision early one Sunday, with no other traffic (thank goodness), and one neighbor in a pickup behind me. In the right turn out of the subdivision, I got on the gas. My right rear got lose, the rear hopped to the left, I over corrected, and the rear swung violently right, and I wound up stopped perfectly in the left hand turn (going back into the subdivision!) on the main road, 180 degrees from where I started. The pickup driver was so surprised he just sat there and missed the light. When the light changed, I calmly proceeded back into the subdivision, and waved at my startled neighbor in the pickup as I passed him!

That one was funny, but it could have been much worse, and I have noticed this behavior in the C4. Never in any other car have I ever lost control at all. My Shelby Cobra had a locked rear end, and though it was rough going around corners on the street, it was terrifically stable, and never drifted right or left. Kind of like an old stright axle Corvette (C1), it was very predictable. Not as capable, but easy.

Now that I know about this behavior, I never have let it get the better of me again. Here is my question... I assume that others have noticed this. Most C4's not just the ZR1, have the power to make the rear wheels lose adhesion. it seems like the combination of one tire breaking lose, combined with the action of the positraction, can cause this hairy situation. Has anyone else see this kind of behavior.

Now to a special situation, which might at first seemed like carelesness on my part, but which isn't.

I hope some of the members reading this are employed in construction, insurance, or some field where they may have a professional opinion.

On Noveember 7, two months ago, I was on my way to my daughter's home with my wife. We were in the ZR1, the weather was clear and dry, and we were going through a construction zone at about 30 mph. I was very familiar with the construction zone, and had been through it many times. As we gently turned to the right, the rear end suddenly hopped to the left, and I was limited in how I could correct because of a concrete construction barrier. The barrier was only a couple of feet outside of the lane. There was no room to correct, and we struck it hard with first the left rear, and then the left front. We were both shaken up, and I later had some internal bleeding. The police came, and we all concluded it was a blow out of the left rear. They changed the tire for me, and escorted me home.

The next morning, I could see the wheel in the light, and it was not a blowout. Thw tire was ripped apart by the outside rim which had been hit so hard that the rim was litterly torn off the wheel, and was missing.

I went to the site to recover the rim. At this point I was upset because the obvious conclusion was that I had been too aggressive and had broken the rear end loose, just like the subdivision incident. That was what my wife and I assumed, and we were not very happy about it.

So it was very early on a Saturday, and I found the site closed, and teeming with workers and equipment. I parked my car, and walked out to find the rim. The foreman walked over, and we discussed the job (I was a road engineer myself a long time ago). In the conversation, he confided in me that they had been ordered out at dawn ("first light") to clean up and re-arrange the site, because there had been an accident the night before. About that time, I found the rim, and he asked me why I wanted it. I answered, "Because I was the driver". Oh yes, he was shocked. But he was cordial, and once I had the rim, and realized what he was saying, I rushed back to the car and got my digital camera, and took many pictures, not really knowing what I was seeing.

Sure enough, when I studied the pictures, you could see what had happened, and as luck would have it, you could see gravel on the road surface right at the start of the turn (they swept it away after they used a crane to remove the barriors, but I got the pics first). And in one of the shots, my skid mark in the gravel was quite clear. Not debatable.

I have done one accident reconstruction in a successful Court case I was in a few years ago. So I followed the same procedure, and to make a long story short, I am satisfied that the pea gravel caused a sudden loss of traction on the right rear, just as we were going to the right. The car, true to form, lurched left, and hit the wall. My wife and I had been at a loss to explain the severity of the accident until all the elements were added up, including the fact that I was NOT speeding.

So here we are 60 days later. My wife took our attorneys to the site that same day, and they would sue the contractor for injuries. The admission of the foreman has no legal bearing (cleaning up the site does not prove responsibility). But what the admission does do is prevent them from rebutting my solid evidence which does show what happened.

So what is my question, and why have I waited so long?

My question is, if I do NOT want to sue them, but just want the car repaired (wheels and tires and bearing hub destroyed, amazingly, no damage to the car itself in any way!) without a big fight, what is the best way to approach them. A letter to them with the photos? A direct claim to their insurance? What?

I don't want a suit, because I have just finished the long medical malpractice suit. But I do not have the budget to repair the car until I get payment from somewhere. Part of the dalay is because I have continued to have bleeding. I have been to the doctor about once a week since the accident, and I am just about back to normal, with no permanent damage. I have a major internal exam in about two weeks, and if it is ok, then I am satisfied. But it has been an ordeal. There is no need to wait longer to approach someone.

But how? and who to approach?

So the claim against them if it were a suit is substantial. But I don't have the money and time the lawyers would take. Yet I am hesitant to send the complaint to them, because if the reject it (a big mistake), then we are committed to the hard way. So does anyone have any experience or ideas about how to make the best "first impression", and not have them take a position that we will regret later?

And to finish... I assume this is obvious, but it is worth saying to a group of Corvette owners. It is important to remember that with a high performance car like the Corvette goes the inherent danger that you could find yourself in a street situation that is dangerous. Because, unlike modern race tracks, on the street there are lots of things to hit if you can't stay in your lane! My accident did not result from the power of the Corvette, nor did it involve fast driving, but it was a great example of how dangerous the streets can be!

So the advice we see here all the time from members saying "Take it to the track!" is good advice!

Thanks

Regards,

Bat Man

I have had the same experience happen to me. And the opposite.

Both of the times, it got very violent, especially when it caught traction (about 110degrees into the 180).

ZR1991

Thanks,

Yes, I would agree, and perhaps the real value of this to C4 owners (or Corvette owners in general) is to be aware of this. The violence of the car's reaction is really surprising if you are not yet skilled, or have not gotten used to it. In both cases, it caught me by surprise.

I read a book ("California Screaming") sometime ago about the racing Corvette in the 50's and early 60's in California. And I remember the discussion by some of those drivers who were moving fom the straight axle C1 to the StingRay. They commented as I recall that the StingRay was vastly superior, but needed to be driven with all the wheels stuck to the ground, and they were fearful of "drifting" it like they did the earlier car. I assume it was an aquired skill, going from the straight axle to the independant suspension.

The comparison I made earlier between my old Cobra (which had a drag racing straight axle) compared to the ZR1 is consistent with what they said.

Regards,

CentralCoaster

I was skeptical when first reading this, but I have had similar experiences with gravel and wet roads where I was not driving like Mario Andretti.

In the case of the construction zone, I assume the speed limit will be reduced, and the safe driving speed, such as around corners would also be less. These should be implied if not posted. If the speed limit is 35, it doesn't mean you can do 35 in the turns safely.

The city should be held responsible for dangerous situations, like potholes and gravel on the road. When I lost control in gravel in an intersection under construction, I nearly wiped out, but only hit a flexible orange marker and scuffed the paint. Had it caused more damage, I surely would have pursued it. (That particular intersection has been "under construction" for 3 years, btw. :rolleyes:)

I honesty don't think anyone will take your claim seriously if you don't file a lawsuit. They don't want to give you anything whether or not you file a suit, so you might as well make them. And if they even hint at the fact that your powerful Corvette was a factor, then I'd be pissed. You can lose control in a loose gravel intersection with a Yugo... your vehicle type should have no bearing on this, even if it has tendencies as you described.

NightRyder

i have no legal knowledge, but i would think that unless the guy was your best friend (and then who knows) they arnt gona feel sorry for you or anything, and will not want to hand you money. Even saying that, i would first come up with a plan that would cover your end, and be less then what would happen if you took it to court. then propose, maybe the guy you work with will be sensible. im sure that if you say the right words, he would give you what your looking for, but thoes words might not be from this planet. then you would go to court, just this way you gave them (and you) an head-ache-free way out, and they are the ones who declined.

.... OR you could take them to court, then offer an out of court settlement. this might be the better way to go, because they would know for sure that your were serious.

and as for you (CentralCoaster) and your 3 yearold construction site... yeah i know how that works. weve got a street here that is many years in the works (I think the whole project was either 40 or 70million, something outlandish. they made a highway connecting freeways, while letting the road be used.), and has been moved/resurfaced almost 10 times. they first widened it, then move everyone to the right so they could pave the left. then move everyone to the left, to pave hte right. but wait, thats not right. lets do it over again! :crazy:

LuvMyVette

Absolutely correct!! I had the same thing happen to me one evening when I "HAD" my 94. When I pulled onto the road that evening, I ran it up then backed off as I started approaching the right hand turn. This was just after winter had passed and the roads had small pebbles, and who knows what else, on the sides from all the salt and ashes that were put down during the winter. I ended up going off of the road on the left hand side and into the dirt which put me in a 360. I managed to get it out of the 360 but when I did, I saw a telephone pole directly in front of me about 2 feet away. I ran into the pole dead center on the front license plate cover. I was probably going somewhere between 60 - 70 mph when I went into the turn. The turn wasn't very sharp so it shouldn't have been a problem and I often asked myself how it happened. Aside from the fact that I should have been going slower, this post explains why I lost control that evening.

Live and learn but never forget.

Mr Mojo

Hey Art, long time no speak.

The video you refer to was shot right after I had left the scene. The C5 driver was trying to imitate me(and not successful as you can see).

While I don't drive like that all the time, I do believe there is a time a place for everything, but most important, you need to know the characteristics of your car.

I have experienced what you described many times, but mainly due to the fact that I was trying to do it.

Whenever I buy a car, I always take it somewhere to "test" it. That way I can get a feel for the car and how it handles. But obviously you need more than a test drive to find everything and nothing is for sure. You may know a certain piece of road and it changes the next day.

As far as advice, I really can't help much there, you would think if you approached them, they would want to settle out of court, just to avoid negative press, but then again, they may not and as you say, the hard way is a very expensive option with no guarantee.

I wish you good luck and hope it all works out. :cheers:

redwing76

Sorry about your health problems getting old sucks.
Corvette handling, Corvettes get side ways in a heart beat.
My 63 did it, my 74 did it, my 86 did it.
My 86 surprized me though. I stood on it from a roll of 25 mph and it took both hands to keep it straight.
You have to keep that in mind when you drive a Corvette. Independent rear ends are independent. So are chicks but thier still fun.

Send a repair estimate to the cons. company and see what happens.
Good luck.

Z-PDX

Sorry about your accident and poor health of late. Prayers to you.

Like many here, I am a big fan of personal responsibility and generally abhor legal action. But best of luck in whatever avenue you pursue.

I have a slightly different take. This comes from years of driving and racing both on and off road vehicles. Some with high levels of power, some not.

As opposed to a power issue or an independant suspension issue. I would like to bring up the issue of contact pressure and tire width. Vehicles like the Corvette (and other race cars) have low contact pressure as a result of light weight and wide tires. This results in a couple of tendencies that can really differentiate the handling from more pedestrian vehicle.

Especially in low-coeficient of friction surfaces: wet pavement, pea gravel, etc... they will want to swap ends or "ski" with VERY little help from the throttle. Once the tail is wagging it is VERY difficult to slow down. This tendency can be found in hi-powered, wide tired cars from Camaros to 911s.

The other effect of the wide tires is a tendency to follow grooves or imperfections in the road. This can result in driver overcorrections that can result in tail-out conditions.

The quick steering ratio of C4s does nothing to help mitigate this as overcorrection is VERY easy to do.

Another piece of the puzzle is the Corvette's strong tendency towards power-on oversteer and power-off understeer. The transition can happen quite rapidly and can easily unsettle the car.

The message here is that even though you have one of the finest handling cars on the planet. There are places that you may not be able to keep up with a Ford Escort.

Interesting reading here...

Stay safe,

-Z

JrRifleCoach

ZR1991, Hope everything works out for you. As a novice Corvette driver I have to admit that the violent "fishtailing" you described was one of the very first "handling oddities" I had the opportunity to discover. This can be immediately compensated for by not jumping on it.... But darn, its a vette, and thats half the fun. My mods for this winter include tightening the suspension and installing C-Beam reinforcement plates. Can't say for sure this will cure the behavior, I'm simply hoping it will help me control it better.

:cheers:
JRC

C4DC

:iagree: The 1st this happened to me was on my 1st ever pass at the strip on a 1-2 shift :eek: and have since felt it a few times on the street. I am aware of it and try to anticipate it when it may happen, but I hear the C-Beam plates cure this trait and are on my list of to do items.
Can't you submit the claim to your ins co and get your car fixed now and let them worry about collecting from the construction co?

boxerdog

First let me join the rest in wishing you the best with your medical problems.

I've done this many times when I was young and silly and have been on the verge of doing it in my vette, as you say if you are aware of this tendancy you can be prepared. The last time I almost lost it was on a road that was just repaved and after a short rainstorm, nice and greasy. Took off straight and as the torque built up the rear went right, I corrected, then went left. I was ready for it so there was no problem.

I had an X1/9 that I did a lot of suspension mods to and was slightly over-tired. On my way home where I used to live, I would go by a golf course and make a right hander. There had been a little rain that day and the road was greasy. I made the right at no more than 15mph and the tail went left, right and then I was at 180 degrees on the side of the road with a bunch of golfers wagging their fingers at me.

Also happened on an MG (straight axel) I had done a bunch of mods to also a little over-tired. Went a little too fast and the next thing was right, left, guardrail, trees, guardrail, trees and about a quarter mile of twisting skid marks.

As has already been mentioned if the C-beam is loose power-on and power-off will cause the rear to move changing the rear camber and causing problems. Also could just be age-worn bushings.

Where I live the state/town has covered themselves ten different ways on liability in construction zones, the only succesful suit I can remember was on a road not under construction but with lots of sand in an intersection that someone skidded through. Turns out the town had been warned a bunch of times but did nothing.

Best of luck.

Edit for spelling, my mother would yell at me.


[Modified by boxerdog, 4:15 PM 1/10/2004]

mitymek

the accident: will vary from state to state but here i beleive it would boil down to
a: to fast for conditions. (we can get these tickets at 5 mph if we fall off the road) OR,
b: contractor negligence in the barrier setup. did you have a tape measure stretched out in the pics? (gravel,ice,mud on the roadway wouldnt be a factor,only material you would not normally expect to find on a roadway-i.e. oil or chemicals etc)
since your sick of suits i would get an estimate worked up and go talk to the owner of the company.
maybe hes sick of suits too.
the handling oddities:
the first thing i noticed with my low mileage 92 coupe was how hard it is to gather it up after she gets loose.
its not that it kicks left or right ,its a posi car and all posi cars require extreme caution when traction breaks,its the amount of bite the c4 gets when it grabs traction.
it literally rips you sideways in the seat and this is when you need to be making your correction "twitch".
its not that its "easy" to oversteer at this point (or understeer),its plain hard not to.
i touched into a downhill slide while powering around a pothole (dirt road)and
i had to literally lift my butt off the seat,smahing my back into the back of the seat in order to keep from being flung around like a rag doll and got it straight after the third time being sideways.
wew.
dont power on dont power off-go to coast mode,be ready for a tap of power or brake at just the right moment to correct.
ALWAY WEAR THAT SEAT BELT!! gm put that "cinch" button there.hmm they may have noticed the g-force issue too.
if your car is correct you can easily do a burnout straight.
it has nothing to do with independent supension.
but the independant supension cars do have bushings that can get loose and cause pitching.
you can test for this by powering on and see if it feels like its going slighly right in the tail,then chop throttle(no brake), and see if you can feel the tail go to the left.if it does rebush/brg everything that moves,tighten every bolt.
advice for all: find a safe place thats paved and practice till you can pull onto a roadway (simulated)and punch it as your entering the road forcing the tail out.get it in a controlled slide for as long as you can,ending the slide with the car going straight down the road. the whole time staying in your lane.
when you can do that your ready for just about anything the public can dish out.
(sorry for the length-this issue is an important one for us all)
glad your ok,sounds like rough times. :sad:

Sparky_OKC

I have had a similar - though much less violent - experience. No gravel, but was taking a curved, overpass-type on-ramp with the bridge sections not matching up [heaving?] so that the right rear wheel lost traction for a fraction of a moment and the car's back end lurched noticably to the right. Disconcerting feeling to say the least. Thankfully, I did not try to compensate. I just hung on with white knuckles. The person behind me must have had an interesting view of a Corvette beginning to go sideways ever so slightly. It gave me back a profound respect for these machines, and a painful awareness that just because I am behind the wheel of this brute, I am very much a novice and not a pro.

ZR1991

Boy this is great stuff, I am late for an engagement tonite, and will join in tomorrow.

I will try to post some of the pics. The speed was under thirty (no signs that night, but signs put up the next morning were posted 30), and the police agreed no fault, hence no ticket. I agree, I feel the accident was a fluke caused but the pavement not being cleaned up. The gravel was swept on to the road as the lane was realigned during thew day, and not cleaned off when they went home. Thats why they were re aligning and sweeping the next morning, all of which I caught.

I brought up the handling issues because our first assumption was that the accident was a combination of improper driving and the Corvette's handling. I went to the site the next AM to get the rim, and was not at the time blaming the construction. It was only when I saw the site and the pictures that I reconstructed what happened.

But lots of good stuff, and I am glad so many are aware of the Corvette's handling issues.... Important to not take it as a critism of the Corvette, but in most people's experience, an unusual combination of an independant rear end, and lots of power. Traditionally, most really powerful cars have straight axles, and most independant rear cars have less power (like my Jags did). But the Corvette has both, which offers great performance, but perhaps a steeper learning curve. And that is the best benefit of this discussion.

Please join in, I will be back tomorrow, with the photos and drawings I did for my affedafit.

Regards to all,

;)

JADVette94

Hmmm. I don't want to be a downer, but...

I have a little bit different take on this. I do have some experience in this area (insurance claims) and have a few problems with the scenario.

First of all, why now?...3 months after the accident? I understand you took pictures the next day, but why didn't you file a claim with the construction company's insurance carrier right away?
Second, I think you will have a difficult time proving negligence on the construction crew. I know the foreman told you that they were cleaning up the site because of the accident, but I doubt they will admit that in court or to a claims adjuster. As for the road conditions, most states eliminate any liability they may have by creating some sort of "reasonable and prudent" law. What that means is, despite the condition of the road and/or construction site, it will be argued that since your car lost control, your car was traveling at a speed that was not "reasonable and prudent", regardless of the posted (or possibly un-posted) speed limit. The construction company will argue that the other cars passing by did not have any problem...granted, those other cars were not rear wheel drive monsters, but it was not the construction company's decision for you to drive a ZR1.
As for the cleaning up and re-arranging of the site, I could not tell in your post if that was because the accident created a mess, or if it was because the messy construction site created the accident. Either way, I think it will be argued, if the company even admits to cleaning up the site, that any clean up was to clean up a mess created by the accident.
Anyway, since your car is a corvette ZR1, I would imagine that you have full coverage through your own auto insurance company. They should have conducted an investigation if you filed a claim with them. What did their investigation conclude? Were there any witnesses? If there were, your insurance company likely interviewed them. Did your insurance company try to subrogate from the construction company's liability carrier?

Anyway, just some things to think about. I know this is not very encouraging, but I know how insurance companies operate (It may seem evil, but it is all in an effort to keep preimiums down).

To answer your questions (something I sort of neglected at first), the best route would be to file a claim with the liability carrier for the construction company. They may offer a percentage (based on comparative negligence, etc.) of the damages you sustained, or they may just deny your claim. Then you can go to your own insurance company (something you should do regardless so you can at least get your car fixed now, while all of the other details are being worked out) and try to get them to argue on your behalf. They may be able to settle in some form of arbitration. If all else fails, you could go the legal route, but as you said and others have confirmed, that would be costly, lengthy, and is a gamble. Of course, you can also start with the legal route right away, which some people feel is necessary because your statement to the insurance company could provide them with evidence against you. (However, this should not be a factor, since only the truth will be told, the facts will be uncovered and the situation will be resolved as it should be---leading to the fair conclusion)

Best of luck and I hope everything is resolved fairly.


[Modified by JADVette94, 6:14 AM 1/11/2004]


[Modified by JADVette94, 6:26 AM 1/11/2004]


[Modified by JADVette94, 6:32 AM 1/11/2004]

ZR1991

Don't be concerned at all, JADVette94. If I did not have every one of your concerns, I would not be posting this thread. Everybody's comments have been very good here. When the accident happened, I did believe it was my driving or some fault with the car. It was only in the next few days when I studied the photos that I came to the conclusions I did. It was in the next few days after the accident that I prepared a long and tedious affidavit for my lawyer about the accident. This was an awfully **** thing to do, but it has the advantage of getting all the facts together at one time, and not having to go over it again and again.

As I posted earlier, I have copied most of that affidavit on to my site and it, along with drawings made at the time, and the photos, is now available at http://www.artcolleys.net/accident.htm .

I had not looked at it for a while, but in skimming over it (and I recommend that anyone looking at it just skim over it, it is pretty tedious), lt has the answers to most of your questions.

But to address a couple of your points.

1. The contractor's "reasonable" responsibility to keep the site safe. All who have mentioned this are correct to a point, but because this is such an issue, and a likely problem, the law is pretty strict, and not like we all assume. Contractors that create an unsafe condition on a highway, even one that has warning signs, must (must) do all they reasonably can to minimize the danger. For example, contractors working on new houses where trucks track wet mud on the road are supposed to clean the road before they leave the site. And in fact some do. In a road construction project, the contractor is supposed to clean the lanes of debrie. The issue here is that they did not. It is not reasonable for them to finish, for example, the entire width of the road in one day. So they restrict the lane. But in doing so, they have to maintain that restricted lane.

2. Why so long. There is no legal issue here, though the question is reasonable. Several reasons. One was that I wanted to wait until my condition stabalized to the point that I was willing to settle just for the repairs. We appear to be at that point. I didn't want to ask for just that, only to find that there is a larger health issue. If that was to be the case, then I would turn it over to the lawyers, because the claim is too big, and I would not negotiate that myself. So the question of how to procede is based on the fact that we are just talking about a car damage claim, not a person damage claim. It took time for that. But the investigation and the affidavit were done within 4-5 days of the accident when the details were fresh. The car, by the way, has been laid up for the 2 months since the accident. It was looked at by my insurance company, but has been parked since then.

3. My insurance company did receive a claim from me about 48 hours after the accident. Unless the number is large enough, they will not spend the money to pursue the other company. You are absolutely right that the intent is to minimize costs. If the number gets bigger, they will probably do that. As to them doing the investigation, it was too late when I called them. It was pure chance that I saw what I did. Had I been an hour later, I would have missed it too.

4. About the site personnel admitting what they told me, well you take the reasonable position that they would not. However, why they cleaned the site is of no great importance, because it has no legal value. Their cleaning the site does not make them responsible, in a legal sense, as I said in my first post. The value of this information was that it led me to look for what they might have been concerned about, and I found it, and photographed it. The "smoking gun" is a single skid mark a couple feet long (in pictures 5, 6, 7). Another item in the cleanup (and covered in the long affidavit) is that the cleanup was only for their construction items and trash. There was no wreckage on the site, except for the rim, which was in the ditch, and none of knew about it.

5. In cases like this the accident investigation is done with photos, analysis of the damage, and witnesses. In this case the physical evidence is the strongest, and all the witnesses (including the investigation policemen) do is offer the conclusion that I was not doing anything out of the ordinary. As to an accident reconstruction, I have done one before that actually went to trial. I had the same kind of evidence as this, but had an investigating officer that concluded an entirely different scenario. In the trial, my reconstruction won, and the officer's conclusions were reversed, and a ticket for failure to control was cancelled. Interestingly, because there was no injury to persons, just two totalled cars, the insurance company (safeco) still paid the claim because they wanted their books closed and did not wait for the trial. After the tril and their insured was found "not guilty", they still did not re-open the case. It would have cost too much!

6. A final comment about the site workers. If the issue of why they were called out on a Saturday was really important, my experience is that people who are in their position will not purger themselves to hide why they were there. If needed, the payroll records from that day are available, and the job orders are available. It is really likely that some would tell the truth. But I don't see it as necessary.

To stop here, let me just say that though I am completely satisfied as to the cause, you are right that the company is likely to mount all those defenses, at least at first. In an all out legal battle, it is likely that they would lose. And that's the reason for this discussion. How to take this admittedly arguable situation, and get tham to just fix the car, and not risk a larger action that they would likely lose.

So the claim is likely valid, their defenses are credible. Because their defenses are so obvious, they are likely to react as you describe. How do we advoid that? Remember, it is also improper for me to threaten them. I can't say, "If you don't do the reasonable thing and fix the car, then I am going to sue you for personal injury, which is 100 times more." Not only is that on the edge of illegal, but the defense is also obvious. "If you have such a big injury case, why do you just want the car fixed. Or are you saying that to extort the car repair from us?"

You see the catch 22 ???????? http://www.artcolleys.net/accident.htm and


Thanks, and regards

A last comment in an attempt to quantify the awkwardness of the situation: I don't thing the contractor was "grossly negligent" in this case. The Corvette was likely to be the victum for the reasons we discussed (wide tires, etc), but their actions (or lack of action) did cause the accident.


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[Modified by ZR1991, 2:28 AM 1/11/2004]

ZR1991

It looks like this thread is slowing down, no doubt due to it's own weight! :D

I really appreciate the posts that have been made so far; I have gotten some ideas, and will update as I decide what to do (I haven't yet, which is why I am just putting in this brief "thank you").

Please add your thoughts as you see fit.

Thanks, and regards,

bogus

The C4 has a nasty tendency to do what you described... it has something to so with the torque loading of the engine to the rear end.

I have found that Beam Plates to wonders to contain that torque loading.

Also, pea gravel is not unlike marbles... they are round and less jagged, hence, they can break loose without much warning.

Dec 1987, I was driving my 1981 Toyota Celica (RWD), I was passing a lady in a SUV thingy... she was doing like 40~45 in a 50 and not really paying much heed to the road... so I passed... I checked in, out, in, passed. Got about 1/2 way around and she SPEEDS UP!!!!!!!!!!

I then see a car coming AT ME!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: I hoped to brake and fall back into line... no such luck... the arsehole behind me took my space!!!! :mad :mad :mad :mad

So I go left to the shoulder... avoided the head on!!! :blueangel: :blueangel: :blueangel:

Only to have that stupid bitch SLOW DOWN!!!!!! If she had kept going, what happened next would have happened to me and me alone, but no... she had to slow... :mad :mad :mad :mad the shoulder had been coated in chip and tar... NO TRACTION. I spun and wacked her.

I was pissed... she had done nothing right to avoid me... and the highway department screwed me by using that nasty stuff on the shoulders... I considered a law suit to go after the state for using such bad stuff on the shoulders (remember, shoulders are for emergencies, as such, they should be able to support the speeds on the road in question). being a young 22, every adult told me I was lucky to only get an unsafe lane change ticket and leave it alone. I shoulda listened to my conscience.

To this day, I don't dismiss a younger person simply cause they are younger. they may have some insight I don't have.

At the same time, I keep my mind open to other possible situations and conditions.

In your situation, I agree that you have a claim. If you would like, I will attest to my story in whatever way is required to validate your claim that pea gravel is not much less than ice.

Keep us posted.

By the way, in most states, you have 2 years to file a law suit. If only cause it takes time to sort out blame and/or causation.

bogus

Watching that video reminds me of this event... last Corvette's at Carlisle, my gf and I were driving into Carlisle from the hotel (the Motel 6) and were sitting at an intersection somewhere near I81. Some moron in a C5 vert comes off the exit and starts to do a Frank when he nearly looses it!!!!! All I could see was Mil Yellow getting ready mate with Polo Green.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: