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You can also install a manual valve body in the transmission. Instant up and down shifts at whatever rpm you want. Full control. No missed shifts either.
Maintenance, cost for, and ease of transmission repair has not been mentioned:
The 700R4 / 4L60 / 4L60e (pretty much the same thing) is relatively reliable, and can be serviced and parts sourced from pretty much anyone, anywhere in the world. Both of the C4 manual transmissions carry 'risk' of ownership if they need to be fixed or parts are needed. Particularly the Overdrive section of the 84-88 4+3. (There are basically no parts, and one guy in his 80's that fixes them.) The ZF itself is fairly robust, but the Dual Mass Flywheel, pull-to-release clutch assembly, and hydraulic clutch 'linkage' are not. Clutches in manual transmissions are maintenance items. It is just a matter of time that a 6-speed car will need a clutch, and the dearth of parts and people familiar with them (particularly the flywheel) will be revealed.
A C4 automatic can be fixed by almost anyone with parts obtainable the same day. Not-so-much for either C4 manual transmission. The importance of the 3.07 ratio to "sportier" performance has been covered.
I prefer automatics (I have an 85 4A and an 88 4A, both with 3.07 axle and Z51/Z52). As IHBD mentioned, they are very reliable, and they are easy to get parts for and repair. And unless you are a professional driver, the C4 automatics are faster than the manuals. This is supported by data from road tests back in the day. But buy one with 3.07 axle ratio.
I prefer automatics (I have an 85 4A and an 88 4A, both with 3.07 axle and Z51/Z52). As IHBD mentioned, they are very reliable, and they are easy to get parts for and repair. And unless you are a professional driver, the C4 automatics are faster than the manuals. This is supported by data from road tests back in the day. But buy one with 3.07 axle ratio.
Yep. Do a YouBoob search for Motorweek Retro 85 Corvette (silver z51 vs red auto). Auto edged out the manual in the 1/4 mile.
No one wants to here this, and I hate to say it, but under most circumstances, the slushbox C4 cars are actually typically as quick or slightly quicker
Only true when driven by a mediocre to poor driver. Any hot shoe will out drive a C4 with a stick, vs. and auto.
Only true when driven by a mediocre to poor driver. Any hot shoe will out drive a C4 with a stick, vs. and auto.
Yep. Like Leno said in a couple of episodes of Jay Leno's Garage, (paraphrased) 'every guy thinks he's the best in bed', but that doesn't make it true. But it's not just about knowing how to properly and efficiently row through the gears - It's also about how much you are willing to abuse the clutch to get off the line quicker.
So 1 - you have to be good, and 2 -you have to be willing to abuse the clutch. How many C4 manual drivers have that combination? I'd say that most C4 auto owners don't have too much to worry about.
Most cars (especially hyper cars and high end sports cars) are being offered only in auto these days, and have been for some time. Eventually, no manufacturers will offer a manual shift. And, sir, I guarantee that you cannot - no one can - shift as fast as the auto's made in high end sports cars today, including the C8 Corvette, which has a vastly improved 8 speed auto over the C7.
GM doesn't even offer the C8 in a manual. What does that tell you? It's all about speed to 60 and in the 1/4 so you can publish those numbers in the marketing materials and in the magazines. That is exceptionally difficult to do consistently with a human operating a manual shift.
The Porsche 911 Turbo dual clutch 8 speed auto will be in 4th before you even get out of 1st. Way smarter, more efficient, and faster than a human. It's all about 0-60 times in under 3 seconds these days - you want to do that consistently (and safely), you need a modern dual clutch automatic. Doesn't sound too boring to me....
C4's do not have that level of tech, obviously, but the point remains that it'll still stay with, or out accelerate most manual drivers (who think they are quicker with their manuals) consistently with a mashing of just one pedal. Again, doesn't sound too boring to me...
Last edited by Corvette-ZL1; 09-08-2023 at 09:35 AM.
Who cares which C4 is faster? It is pretty negligible. The only thing I care about is how much I am enjoying my car, which happens to be a ZF6. After installing a short shifter, it is really a joy to drive and engage with the transmission. I've driven C4 auto's, not for me.
Only you know if you can get the same enjoyment out of the auto. If you can, you get the benefit of a much wider selection and generally cheaper prices.
So 1 - you have to be good, and 2 -you have to be willing to abuse the clutch. How many C4 manual drivers have that combination? I'd say that most C4 auto owners don't have too much to worry about.
1. Agreed. Your original claim was about the CARS....what the CAR can do. You said the auto CAR was faster and it is not. A stick C4, the CAR, can go better than a C4 auto. Driver required...which is the essence of "sporty".
2. That's debatable. I'd submit that a GOOD driver, isn't going to cause "abuse" to get results and I'd make that claim based on my own experience and results. I guess we'd need to start by defining what is "abuse", and what are the consequences of that? Taking my own car, it's got ~210,000 miles. A clutch was put in by the PO at 50k, so the clutch has ~160k on it. That's a lot....about the typical life of a 700R4 Transmission, yet it still works perfectly. With that in mind, I'll share that I used to drag track my car as often as I could, until our drag track closed. Since then I've taken it to other tracks in other states and ran it there too. In all of that, the car with my driving has emerged as the fastest stock LT1 that I have ever seen, here in UT, with a 13.73@101 in our rarefied air. It's gone 13.5@105 in Vegas.
Back to #2: Is my clutch "abused"? What are the consequences of that use/abuse? How long should a clutch last?
3. Probably not many Corvette owners can drive well. Few drivers of ANY car, drive well, unfortunately....but that's not a limiting factor to the CAR...that's a personal choice someone makes, to essentially be lazy and not learn/master a skill, be disciplined about it and then reap the benefits of that skill.
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
Most cars (especially hyper cars and high end sports cars) are being offered only in auto these days, and have been for some time. Eventually, no manufacturers will offer a manual shift. And, sir, I guarantee that you cannot - no one can - shift as fast as the auto's made in high end sports cars today, including the C8 Corvette, which has a vastly improved 8 speed auto over the C7.
GM doesn't even offer the C8 in a manual. What does that tell you? It's all about speed to 60 and in the 1/4 so you can publish those numbers in the marketing materials and in the magazines. That is exceptionally difficult to do consistently with a human operating a manual shift.
The Porsche 911 Turbo dual clutch 8 speed auto will be in 4th before you even get out of 1st. Way smarter, more efficient, and faster than a human. It's all about 0-60 times in under 3 seconds these days - you want to do that consistently (and safely), you need a modern dual clutch automatic. Doesn't sound too boring to me....
C4's do not have that level of tech, obviously, but the point remains that it'll still stay with, or out accelerate most manual drivers (who think they are quicker with their manuals) consistently with a mashing of just one pedal. Again, doesn't sound too boring to me...
1. Right, so all of those anecdotal examples have absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand, and aren't relevant examples for a plethora of other (technical and financial) reasons. Not sure why C8's and Late Porshas were brought into a conversation about C4's. Weird. Irrelevant. Pointless.
2. "Just by mashing one pedal", is the definition of "BORING". You're not involved with the experience....and you didn't "earn", the results. So where's the reward? Might as well play a video game or play with a sim. Or if "sporty" is your body getting thrown around by forces of acceleration, in a vehicle where you're not involved with the actual driving...go ride a roller coaster. That's WAY "sportier" than a C4 auto.
Hey all, first post here. I understand this topic has probably been beaten to death but I'd love to hear from anyone who owns an auto trans C4. The reason I ask is because I am a young guy looking for a fun project car and I personally don't care about people hating on automatics, cause the fact of the matter is, auto C4's are cheaper and more plentiful. All that being said, what kind of sportiness will be lost with the auto? I'm by no means a professional driver, having learned how to drive on a fwd hyundai SUV, but I'd still like a little reassurance that I would be buying something engaging and enjoyable to drive, maybe enough to take to track days.
mine is a 95 LT1 with 460E transmission and 3.07 gears. I think it jumps pretty good from a stoplight.
1. Agreed. Your original claim was about the CARS....what the CAR can do. You said the auto CAR was faster and it is not. A stick C4, the CAR, can go better than a C4 auto. Driver required...which is the essence of "sporty".
2. That's debatable. I'd submit that a GOOD driver, isn't going to cause "abuse" to get results and I'd make that claim based on my own experience and results. I guess we'd need to start by defining what is "abuse", and what are the consequences of that? Taking my own car, it's got ~210,000 miles. A clutch was put in by the PO at 50k, so the clutch has ~160k on it. That's a lot....about the typical life of a 700R4 Transmission, yet it still works perfectly. With that in mind, I'll share that I used to drag track my car as often as I could, until our drag track closed. Since then I've taken it to other tracks in other states and ran it there too. In all of that, the car with my driving has emerged as the fastest stock LT1 that I have ever seen, here in UT, with a 13.73@101 in our rarefied air. It's gone 13.5@105 in Vegas.
Back to #2: Is my clutch "abused"? What are the consequences of that use/abuse? How long should a clutch last?
3. Probably not many Corvette owners can drive well. Few drivers of ANY car, drive well, unfortunately....but that's not a limiting factor to the CAR...that's a personal choice someone makes, to essentially be lazy and not learn/master a skill, be disciplined about it and then reap the benefits of that skill.
1. Right, so all of those anecdotal examples have absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion at hand, and aren't relevant examples for a plethora of other (technical and financial) reasons. Not sure why C8's and Late Porshas were brought into a conversation about C4's. Weird. Irrelevant. Pointless.
2. "Just by mashing one pedal", is the definition of "BORING". You're not involved with the experience....and you didn't "earn", the results. So where's the reward? Might as well play a video game or play with a sim. Or if "sporty" is your body getting thrown around by forces of acceleration, in a vehicle where you're not involved with the actual driving...go ride a roller coaster. That's WAY "sportier" than a C4 auto.
.
Dude, have you every actually DRIVEN a really fast car with a dual clutch auto, or are you just talking out of your @ss. I assume the latter and not the former, because I can't think of many who have would actually say/write something like that. I assure you, it is engaging, and it is VERY fun. It's relevant because it's progress, and the point I'm trying to make is that the old school thinking that autos are always slower and not as fun is one that deserves an update to thinking. We're moving to an automatic world, and it's here to stay.
Mashing the pedal in just about ANY car that is fast and handles well is a fun and engaging activity (unless you don't like that stuff, and I recognize that there are people who don't). If you're saying that you HAVE to have a manual C4 to truly have a fun and engaging driving experience, I think you're going to have a long list of folks (myself included) who will disagree with you.
My references to the Porsche 911 Turbo and the C8 aren't anecdotal, which isn't even a relevant word to use here - look up the word in the dictionary - I did it for you "Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis". It is indeed a FACT, not a casual observation, that the dual clutch auto IS faster than a human - look it up. It's an example of progress, and how far autos have come since the C4, but it certainly does not discount how effective either a C4 auto or C4 manual can be in the right hands. Not terribly fast by today's standards, but still lively, engaging, and fun.
Auto is generally just easier for consistent times with a more shallow learning curve. Weren't you the one who posted a pointless MEME image of an automatic? How was that relevant, other than expressing YOUR opinion. I have no intentions of making this a flame war between the auto and manual crowd. I'm merely pointing out that both have their place. I love them BOTH.
The car is a tool, and it is only as good as who is in the driver's seat to unlock the potential. I'd like you to tell me where I specifically indicate that it's the car that does it all. The car can make it easier to go fast and launch with consistency, but it can't make you a good driver. Incidentally, if I need to tell you what clutch abuse is to maximize launch, then I would recommend you google it, along with the definition of anecdotal. Do some homework instead of firing off a half-butted response that makes you seem like you don't know what you are talking about.
Probably best if we close this conversation between you and I out so others can continue to weigh in with their own experience and input.
Last edited by Corvette-ZL1; 09-08-2023 at 04:09 PM.
Dude, have you every actually DRIVEN a really fast car with a dual clutch auto, or are you just talking out of your @ss.
LOL....This is good stuff. Reading Comprehension, anyone?? Did I say.....anything, about dual clutch cars? Anything at all??
Other than that they're not relevant to this thread, at all......
I HAVE driven them, so AAAAAAAAA!! Wrong, agian!...but, hey! Psssst! They're not relevant to this thread.....at ALL!
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
Mashing the pedal in just about ANY car that is fast and handles well is a fun and engaging activity
Yeah?? HUH. Is the C8 Z06 "fast"? Check out this....."engagement" FF to ~4:30....and ~9:19. Make sure your sitting for this crazy video of driving mastery!!
WOWZERS!!! That was INTENSE! Fun and engaging!? That's an understatement!! Did you SEE the way that she....sat in that chair!? And my god!...the way her head slammed back with every hammering shift! What about at the end?....when she chopped the throttle and all that thrust cut off? She about CHOKED on the restraint harness! How about the way she managed the **** out of that steering action!! WhoooooWEE!! That 1/4 mile run would be enought to give anyone a "code brown", right!?
Yeeeah....no. It looked like a driving sim, in your living room. Nice welding gloves, BTW.
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
It is indeed a FACT, not a casual observation, that the dual clutch auto IS faster than a human - look it up.
Don't need to, buddy. Never said otherwise. What's that got to do with THIS, thread? C4's? Anything in this forum??
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
Auto is generally just easier for consistent times with a more shallow learning curve. Weren't you the one who posted a pointless MEME image of an automatic? How was that relevant, other than expressing YOUR opinion.
I didn't make that technical drawing....that was actually someone else's "opinion".
[quote=Corvette-ZL1;1607024389]The car is a tool,{/quote] NOPE.....AAAAAAA!!!! A Corvette kind of car, is most definitely a TOY. Pick up = Tool. 'Vette? TOY. Which, is why it should be fun/sporty/engaging.
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
Incidentally, if I need to tell you what clutch abuse is to maximize launch, then I would recommend you google it, along with the definition of anecdotal. Do some homework instead of firing off a half-butted response that makes you seem like you don't know what you are talking about.
LOL...again. Did you even READ the results that I've gotten out of my car/clutch??? Yikes. There's that "comprehension" problem, again. Fastest stock LT1 I've ever seen in these parts....160k on that clutch....where's the "Abuse"??
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
Probably best if we close this conversation between you and I out so others can continue to weigh in with their own experience and input.
I agree....you should quit. Or at least stay on topic. There is Rennlist and a C8 forum where you can ********** over DCT's.
I agree....you should quit. Or at least stay on topic. There is Rennlist and a C8 forum where you can ********** over DCT's.
.
I can always count on you to take a thread to the 3rd grade level. You provide some good info, but the attitude that you and a few others have on this forum is a real turn off to new members.
[QUOTE=Tom400CFI;1607024818]LOL....This is good stuff. Reading Comprehension, anyone?? Did I say.....anything, about dual clutch cars? Anything at all??
Other than that they're not relevant to this thread, at all......
I HAVE driven them, so AAAAAAAAA!! Wrong, agian!...but, hey! Psssst! They're not relevant to this thread.....at ALL!
Yeah?? HUH. Is the C8 Z06 "fast"? Check out this....."engagement" FF to ~4:30....and ~9:19. Make sure your sitting for this crazy video of driving mastery!!
WOWZERS!!! That was INTENSE! Fun and engaging!? That's an understatement!! Did you SEE the way that she....sat in that chair!? And my god!...the way her head slammed back with every hammering shift! What about at the end?....when she chopped the throttle and all that thrust cut off? She about CHOKED on the restraint harness! How about the way she managed the **** out of that steering action!! WhoooooWEE!! That 1/4 mile run would be enought to give anyone a "code brown", right!?
Yeeeah....no. It looked like a driving sim, in your living room. Nice welding gloves, BTW.
Don't need to, buddy. Never said otherwise. What's that got to do with THIS, thread? C4's? Anything in this forum??
I didn't make that technical drawing....that was actually someone else's "opinion".
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
The car is a tool,{/quote] NOPE.....AAAAAAA!!!! A Corvette kind of car, is most definitely a TOY. Pick up = Tool. 'Vette? TOY. Which, is why it should be fun/sporty/engaging.
LOL...again. Did you even READ the results that I've gotten out of my car/clutch??? Yikes. There's that "comprehension" problem, again. Fastest stock LT1 I've ever seen in these parts....160k on that clutch....where's the "Abuse"??
I agree....you should quit. Or at least stay on topic. There is Rennlist and a C8 forum where you can ********** over DCT's.
.
You absolutely have issues sir. You are also a vile member of this forum, and I'm shocked with the disgusting language you've in used in other threads that you are still allowed here.
Moderator - this member is disgusting, vile, and has absolutely no class. What a shame members like this exist., despite the number of posts. Language like this is offensive and unacceptable.
[QUOTE=Tom400CFI;1607024818]LOL....This is good stuff. Reading Comprehension, anyone?? Did I say.....anything, about dual clutch cars? Anything at all??
Other than that they're not relevant to this thread, at all......
I HAVE driven them, so AAAAAAAAA!! Wrong, agian!...but, hey! Psssst! They're not relevant to this thread.....at ALL!
Yeah?? HUH. Is the C8 Z06 "fast"? Check out this....."engagement" FF to ~4:30....and ~9:19. Make sure your sitting for this crazy video of driving mastery!!
WOWZERS!!! That was INTENSE! Fun and engaging!? That's an understatement!! Did you SEE the way that she....sat in that chair!? And my god!...the way her head slammed back with every hammering shift! What about at the end?....when she chopped the throttle and all that thrust cut off? She about CHOKED on the restraint harness! How about the way she managed the **** out of that steering action!! WhoooooWEE!! That 1/4 mile run would be enought to give anyone a "code brown", right!?
Yeeeah....no. It looked like a driving sim, in your living room. Nice welding gloves, BTW.
Don't need to, buddy. Never said otherwise. What's that got to do with THIS, thread? C4's? Anything in this forum??
I didn't make that technical drawing....that was actually someone else's "opinion".
Originally Posted by Corvette-ZL1
The car is a tool,{/quote] NOPE.....AAAAAAA!!!! A Corvette kind of car, is most definitely a TOY. Pick up = Tool. 'Vette? TOY. Which, is why it should be fun/sporty/engaging.
LOL...again. Did you even READ the results that I've gotten out of my car/clutch??? Yikes. There's that "comprehension" problem, again. Fastest stock LT1 I've ever seen in these parts....160k on that clutch....where's the "Abuse"??
I agree....you should quit. Or at least stay on topic. There is Rennlist and a C8 forum where you can ********** over DCT's.
.
Tom, my god man get a grip. You're out here masturbating the myth that all enthusiast cars have to be manuals when I literally just started this thread by asking for auto C4 drivers opinions mainly. Your fetish of manual transmission is actively squashing the original thing sporty cars are supposed to be. FUN. If you ain't got nothin nice to say don't say anything at all. I can accept valid criticism of old automatics, which there has been plenty of in this thread, but you need to seriously chill the hell out. People like you are the very reason cars as a hobby is dying out.
LOL....This is good stuff. Reading Comprehension, anyone?? Did I say.....anything, about dual clutch cars? Anything at all??
Other than that they're not relevant to this thread, at all......
I HAVE driven them, so AAAAAAAAA!! Wrong, agian!...but, hey! Psssst! They're not relevant to this thread.....at ALL!
Yeah?? HUH. Is the C8 Z06 "fast"? Check out this....."engagement" FF to ~4:30....and ~9:19. Make sure your sitting for this crazy video of driving mastery!!
WOWZERS!!! That was INTENSE! Fun and engaging!? That's an understatement!! Did you SEE the way that she....sat in that chair!? And my god!...the way her head slammed back with every hammering shift! What about at the end?....when she chopped the throttle and all that thrust cut off? She about CHOKED on the restraint harness! How about the way she managed the **** out of that steering action!! WhoooooWEE!! That 1/4 mile run would be enought to give anyone a "code brown", right!?
Yeeeah....no. It looked like a driving sim, in your living room. Nice welding gloves, BTW.
Don't need to, buddy. Never said otherwise. What's that got to do with THIS, thread? C4's? Anything in this forum??
I didn't make that technical drawing....that was actually someone else's "opinion".
Tom, my god man get a grip. You're out here masturbating the myth that all enthusiast cars have to be manuals when I literally just started this thread by asking for auto C4 drivers opinions mainly. Your fetish of manual transmission is actively squashing the original thing sporty cars are supposed to be. FUN. If you ain't got nothin nice to say don't say anything at all. I can accept valid criticism of old automatics, which there has been plenty of in this thread, but you need to seriously chill the hell out. People like you are the very reason cars as a hobby is dying out.
You got your answer. The A4 in the c5 (and c5) is slow, old, trash. It isn't sporty. A4 C4s aren't fast by modern standards. Hell, the ZF6 cars aren't even really "fast", but the manual makes up for it.
The auto c4 is not fun. It is not sporty. It is not "I can save a couple grand and be happy with it". It's a very slow, dated automatic that does not shift fast, has a ton of drive line loss, and comes with a weak rear end. Oh and in stock form it doesn't hold up to much power. It does have the benefit of being used in every rwd GM vehicle until the mid 00s, and so parts and shops to work on it are cheap and plentiful. But that's it's only advantage. It's worse on gas, massively slower than a ZF6 car, and ruins the experience.
Again, this is my experience owning 2 of these transmissions in trucks. If you wanted a daily driver to eat up miles in, absolutely buy an A4. Throw it in D, relax, arride at point B. But it sucks all the fun out of a car built for fun. If the c4 isn't gonna be your daily driver, and you know how or are willing to learn how to drive a stick, get the stock shift car.
You got your answer. The A4 in the c5 (and c5) is slow, old, trash. It isn't sporty. A4 C4s aren't fast by modern standards. Hell, the ZF6 cars aren't even really "fast", but the manual makes up for it.
The auto c4 is not fun. It is not sporty. It is not "I can save a couple grand and be happy with it". It's a very slow, dated automatic that does not shift fast, has a ton of drive line loss, and comes with a weak rear end. Oh and in stock form it doesn't hold up to much power. It does have the benefit of being used in every rwd GM vehicle until the mid 00s, and so parts and shops to work on it are cheap and plentiful. But that's it's only advantage. It's worse on gas, massively slower than a ZF6 car, and ruins the experience.
Again, this is my experience owning 2 of these transmissions in trucks. If you wanted a daily driver to eat up miles in, absolutely buy an A4. Throw it in D, relax, arride at point B. But it sucks all the fun out of a car built for fun. If the c4 isn't gonna be your daily driver, and you know how or are willing to learn how to drive a stick, get the stock shift car.
Rubbish. That's NOT an answer - It's one biased opinion. YOUR biased opinion FAUEE, stacked on top of ANOTHER biased opinion, like sandbags. Try not to rush into agreeing with Tom - Waaaay too biased, and his last couple of posts on the forum here and in other threads didn't make a lot of sense, truthfully - read more like drunken nonsensical profanity-laced babble. A shame, really.
Let's not confuse those opinions with facts, because even a 4+3 or a 6 speed C4 is not fast at all by today's standards - fact. I'm assuming you watched the motorweek retro video on youtube I made reference to earlier. - not a ZF6, but a 4+3, but you get the point - They're pretty darned equal (in fact, the auto edged out the manual).
As a long time owner of C3's and C4's, I will tell you that autos and manuals are both fun and engaging. If you want fast, don't bet on a stock C4 Corvette against any stock modern sports car today, auto or manual, but they are plenty fun in both versions. If you want modern fast, pick a better tool for the modern era. It's not about which one is faster (auto or manual) - More like which one is slower....
Gimme a break. I cannot believe the auto C4 haters in this forum. You'd think the OP was asking whether he should buy a Mustang or a C4, or something. OP, you will be happy with either auto or manual if you dig the C4 gen. Don't let the auto haters sway you if that's the way you're leaning. If you intend to do any autocross, the manual will have the edge there - in the right hands of course.
If you're ever on the dragstrip and you happen to be racing against another C4 in manual form, I wouldn't worry too much (unless your in an '84 and they are in a '96 LT4.- manual or auto for that matter). For normal and spirited street driving, or on road trips, you'll dig the auto - it's still plenty fast enough to get you in trouble, so be careful.
Good God, folks - try to be objective and see the pros and cons of each rather than being blinded by your own biases when someone is asking an honest question. Or at least try not to make it so darned obvious. Provide as much fact-based info as you can, and let the OP digest that information in order (for him) to make the decision that is right for him.
Last edited by Corvette-ZL1; 09-09-2023 at 01:07 AM.
09-07-2023, 09:13 AM
