Corvette-ZL1

Hi fellow members,

I've been thinking about participating in amateur vintage racing (if you want to call it that for a C4 Corvette) with my C4. Hoping to get members' input here on what is involved with participating in SCCA/amateur racing with their C4s. From what I've read you need to have a SCCA license which involves a physical and track time, but I am not up on the current requirements. Apologies in advance if this is a silly question, but hoping folks with experience on the topic can provide some guidance.

Not looking to do this for a living, but interested in dipping my toe into the water. Just want to be able to have some occasional fun on the track, and the C4 is a great car for it, IMO.

ChumpVette

1) How much money do you have to spend on this "hobby"?
2) How much time do you have. To prep, fix, arrive at track for weekend, run, arrive home, fix, prep for next event, etc?


There are plenty of guys here who run in several series across the US. I would first do some research and see which one fits your personality or desires and purchase/build a car to that series. At that point you have to make the determination if you want to be competitive or just happy to be on the track. Lots of other things to consider, but that is my thoughts on the rabbit hole you are about to venture down.

Corvette-ZL1

Thanks for responding. Just looking to do some occasional track days. Nothing too serious at this point. I've got an 87 vert, and plan to keep it stock. Would love to race against other cars of similar era in stock form. I've done track days with sport bikes some time back, and that cost me very little, but I suppose they were made for that. If something breaks on the C4 during a track day, I'll fix it.

yakmastermax

I started tracking my 1989 just this past summer. I can't believe I waited so long to drive on a real race track. Incredible experience. I'm excited for the coming season!

Go for it!

VikingTrad3r

And what a great rabbit hole it is. But you do have to have time and money, or a boatload of money if you dont have the time.

Grab a cheap coupe and track that, not your vert. Or sell the vert and get a coupe. For HPDE track days, im 90% sure the c4 coupe would not be allowed unless a roll hoop is added. Even if it was allowed i wouldnt do it. Id get a cheap coupe, either 4+3 or zf6, slap in some dynamic friction pads on your factory J55’s, some motul 660, and go have a blast. I say this cause you mentioned hpde as opposed to vintage racing. Ver different things.

But i know what u mean…i started my hpde track days experience in 2019 in an 86 with j55 upgrades, it was sooooooopp fun. Thats not racing though. Go do it!!!! Start a trackday thread. Yak and I and some other have trackday threads going. Come along for the ride, would love to see more people doing it and logging thier experience here.

Yak u r an animal anddivert some of that money u r spending to a garmin catalyst dude!!!!

FAUEE

A few thoughts. Vintage racing, and doing a few track days here and there are VERY different. Real life isn't like Gran Turismo where you show up with an entry form and a car and go race on track. There's lots of steps to even get signed off, it's gonna take a couple years of constant track days to get signed off for wheel to wheel racing, to say nothing of the car mods.

Alternatively, if you just want to race and have no experience, you can run a lemons race. Like the name.suggests, these are total **** shows, with a weird mix of clueless noobs that showed up to Ricky bobby their way to the top, and hyper serious semi pro teams.

Or you can do HDPEs, not worry about winning, and just have fun and learn. This is likely your best option as your car is at less risk than a lemons type thing, and has lower barriers to entry.

There's also scca track night in America events. These are way cheaper, have no instructors like an HDPE would, and while I've heard good things about them, I'd think these would either be really strict on people, or a total **** show.

All that said, you gotta decide what you actually want to do. Then find the budget for it.

Corvette-ZL1

HA! I was already starting to think about picking up a cheap coupe before I started this thread - it's a good excuse to pick up another Vette. Moreover, I just read the HPDE rules which, as you mentioned previously, require you to install a roll bar if you have a convertible, and that's something I don't want to do to my vert. When you started, what run group did you choose? Acclimation, First Timer, Novice, etc etc....

I found your post and am starting to read through it. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...with-pics.html Are there any other posts that you recommend I take a peek at?

BTW, I dig your collection of C4s (past and present)! I thought I had a lead on a very reasonably priced but high mileage 89 Z51 with the awesome 6 speed, but it got sold before I could talk to the seller. I have an older (R53) Mini Cooper JCW (John Cooper Works) which is fast and a blast to drive that I could potentially prep/use in the meantime, but I'd much prefer a C4 Corvette for the purpose.

Although I wouldn't shrug at an auto coupe since they are so cheap, I would prefer a 4+3 or 6 speed. Z52 would be cool, but Z51 is my top choice, because with the Z51 you know you're getting a manual, as that was the only option for the Z51 package!

69autoXr

Be careful, addiction is a real thing.

Corvette-ZL1

Thanks for the input! I've been reading up on the HPDE events, and that sounds pretty interesting. From what I'm hearing, the vintage racing is a whole different level of commitment, so that may be a bit much. At this point, I'm not looking or any huge commitment.

Ideally, I just want to show up with my car and drive it on a track (assuming having to go through some inspection, sign waivers, and tape up lights), and it would be awesome to run with similar C4-era cars. Doesn't have to be competitive where I'm trying to place. Starting off small, so to speak, to see if it's for me. It's the age-old "wanna have fun with my sports car and use it as intended where it is legal to do so..." kinda' thing.

Aardwolf

What's your closest track?

Corvette-ZL1

Probably either mid-Ohio, or something in Western PA.

VikingTrad3r

so true! but at least its healthy, social, and drives a person to personal improvements and new bests.

I really don't have time to learn another platform. Thats how I ended up with a "fleet". Its actually not that expensive if you buy cheap. But with that, sometimes comes extreme cleaning hours, fixing hours, or sometimes you get luck and get a cheap car that needs almost nothing. Others with less hobby time buy a known-high-quality example (Mike's yellow car for example, can't recall his username) and I think @yakmastermax car was pretty nice too with little work required. Much of the work I do is simply cleaning and fixing broken plastic. You need to follow your own path on this one. My money has gone into tires and pads and fuel. However, I would encourage you to find a C4 if that is what you really want. It is ALOT of work in aggregate. Would suck to track prep a car you didn't really want to run for the long term.

You asked about what level i went into. You don't have a choice here my friend. You would be so intimidated initially, you will know where you belong, and that's the most novice of novice. You did say you have done street bikes so maybe not. But I was getting passed by every single person on track to start and ofcourse why wouldn't I. lol. Even the act of getting passed is stressful when you are starting out! Just enroll in novice, find a friend or another member who can meet you at the track and show you the ropes. (granted you did say you have been on track in a bike so again, you may be starting much more experienced than i was, so apologies is this advice seems patronizing. Not meant to be.

Should be plenty of cheap, medium, and expensive C4's available. For consideration and at least a place to start thinking about it, here is my rationale for choosing a track car. I will leave out the price consideration.

1. Transmission - Manual. 4+3 (you track with OD Off, its simple) or zf6. Either or. I have and love both on track. Both need to be verified good-to-go prior to purchase. Then fluids all changed prior to HPDE. Especially the 4+3 OD. Do not bag on that car without verification that the OD box is fully fluid serviced. Clean and re-use the screen.

2. Seats - Sport seat. Priority to 89-93 seats. These are the best factory HPDE seats of all time that I have ever seen in a production car. I will note I haven't been in a c7 or c8 z51 car but its kinda moot cause we are talkign about c4's. The mechanical side bolsters in these cars are incredible. The 94+ sport seats use an inflatable bladder and they are more like the c5 seats. Not good for track, but you can make it work if thats the car that comes along. Personally I'd never buy one for the track because I find the process of swapping seats a royal PITA to make all the gizmos work from one year to the next. A notable 2nd place for factory track seats are 84-88 sport seats. They are fantastic as well. I am not 100% certain if the side bolsters are moveable on these 84-88 sport seats. I know there is a switch that is supposed to do something, but im not sure if it inflates a bladder or if it moves something mechanical. My first car was an 86 with sport seats. It was awesome. A hack, is to remove the bum supports on track, it lets you sink into the seat even more. This makes the side and thigh bolsters hold you even better. When done off the track, reconnect the "hammocks" support under the bum pad or, like me, slide a piece of double thickness cardboard under the bum pad. I simply remove it when i arrive at the track with my 91 Z. When I move the bolsters all the way in, slide the seat all the way rearward. press cinch. move the seatbelt back into its retractor by hand, then use the power seat to slide forward into driving position, i am so ultra sucked into the that seat....i don't move at ALL. Meanwhile, my wife in her c5, is flopping all over the place, guys in there 944's are all over the place, same with 928's, same with pretty much any other factory seat setup. So at least 84-88 sport seats, where the penultimate are the 89-93 sport seats. Yes the electric seat bases are heavy. who cares. this is hpde no w2w racing. Note, its common for most sport seats to not be 100% working. You may need to fix them. I fixed the side bolsters in my 89 it was easy.

3. Z51 package. If you can, get it. If you can't, its not the end of the world at all. I'd honestly buy a base model to start if I had to. I did, my 86 starting car was FE1 springs. Made zero difference to me as a novice. Won't matter for the first year or two. In fact the soft springs can make for some cool "lift and rotate" around corners. :-)

4. FX3 package. If you find a candidate Z51 with an FX3 package, this is fine, but know that you will want to have the FX3 functional. New FX3 shocks are expensive (so are the non-z51 and z51 bilsteins too so not much difference really) but the little gizmos to make the shocks rotate through the Fx3 valving can be a pita to repair (do-able...totally do-able...just a pita to fix these too if all you really want to do is get to the track) so make sure they work. replace the shocks if you need to. Its a common misconception that new FX3 shocks are not available. They are. Bilstein make a run every year. I just bought new ones for my 91 Zr-1. Some guys opt to remove the Fx3 shocks and put in the Z51 bilsteins as a quick way to move past FX3 issues. Thats a good plan. Personally I love my FX3 for driving to the track on touring and then moving over to performance on track. If it wasn't working, not sure I would take the time to make it work. I'd probably just go Z51 shock if it was a track car.

Thats it.

Note....I say nothing about the engine, nor the year. Doesn't matter. For the first couple years of tracking a C4 ...anyway. At which time you may be ready to move up to a different car altogether, or maybe you want to stick with the c4 but now embark on a cornucopia of upgrades. I will guarantee you that even with the lowly 84 Crossfire.....each time you go to the track.....if you are truly working and honing your driving skills...you will continue to shave time off your laps. And that has noting to do with HP or torque curves or blah blah blah. Purely your driving skills. Forget about HP. You are going to be passed by Miata's for the first two years. When you have finished experimenting with different 1/2psi tire pressures, different turn in points, different brake compounds, different rubber....and you have plateued your lap times.....THEN it MIGHT be the horsepower.....but even then I would doubt it. You could probably install brake cooling ducts and now you can brake a tenth later everywhere and now you have taken another second off your laptime......which had nothing do with horsepower. Again....you will be passed by Miatas for 2 years. Its not because of the Horsepower. And its awesome. The track is a leveller. You realize that most people have these 500 hp street cars and have no idea how to control or drive them. Its wonderfully rewarding to know that you are growing as a driver and that you are extracting all performance for the platform. Even when you have truly plateaued..ask a professional/expereinced driver to drive your low hp c4 and watch him be 2 seconds faster than you the very first time he laps the car. And now you are back to it not being about the HP. :-)

my 5th recommendation after the first few sessions if you love it and want to keep going back....

5. Buy a Garmin Catalyst for the $1000. Analyzing that, will be the single greatest thing you can do to improve your driving. No downloading, no nothing. Grab it, go, watch your run, see where you can improve in the 30 minutes between track runs, and then apply next sessions. No point buying this unless you know you love the track that is why its number 5 on my priority list.

You must find your own way! Hopefully some of those thoughts in combination with others help you formulate your own plans.

VikingTrad3r

I think @1Eyed Willie goes there. And also Mike who I cannot recall his username.

Corvette-ZL1

I have the AQ9 sport seats in my 87 vert and love them. They really hold you in place, so I agree with you there. Thanks for the info! I've read it once already, but will likely go through it again (and your thread).

Another question - When you track, are you finding that you are racing against different classes, and generations of cars? I haven't yet noticed any car 'classes' reading the HPDE guidelines. Is it a free for all where you can basically use whatever car you want, or do they have categories? In other words, is it possible that a C4 Corvette could be running on the same track as 2023 C8, and other modern-day contemporary sports cars?

I also have a '69 4-speed vert that I've been restoring, but I think that a C4 would be better for the track (not that a C3 wouldn't, but out of the box, the c4 is a far more capable handling vehicle - you'd have to dump a lot of money into a C3 to get the same level of handling). Have an old R53 Mini JCW too, which is an exceptional handling vehicle, and just about as quick as a C4 (1985+), but I'd rather run a C4, given the choice.

I agree with you that I am much more familiar/comfortable with the C3 and C4 platform, and am hesitant to learn the mannerisms of another on the track, even if I have it on hand. But it is an option until the right C4 coupe comes along, and at the right price....

VikingTrad3r

Where I run there is everything from Lotus Evora to Ferrari F40 (caught on fire actually) to C8 to C3, to BRZ/FRS, to Subbies, to MClaren, to all years of Porsches, to Radicals, to sweet old British roadsters, to BMW E series, to civics and RX8’s and Miatas and Mazda 3’s to Mustangs to Vipers to ….you name it…its there.

Still to this day my wife calls it “Racing” but its not racing. Absolutely it feels like racing…to me and her and anyone else who has never been to the track and suddenly you can let it all hang out. But….you very quickly realize that its not racing. Firstly insurance is void if you are racing on a track. Whereas “lapping” (distinct from racing) on a track, some insurance companies are fine with this. I havnt bothered to ask my insurance company….my cars acquisition cost is so low that if i crup the bed im fine. My thing (and yours will be too) is that you do not want to find out. You will have cars worth bazillions of dollars whipping past you. (Dont ask me why a F40 comes to the track…maybe im not there financially yet ha) Want to be the newb moron who turns in to early because you failed to give a point by in the passing zone and the guy behind you loses patience and passes anyway and you turn into him without even know he was there? Obviously ofcourse not. And that impatient guy shouldnt be passing without a point by but it does happen because humans are humans. Honestly you will be happy to “make it out unscathed” your first track day. Even though….its less dangerous than driving on the street! It *feels* like u r lucky to make it out unscathed but the reality is that most of the drivers will be experienced and you will be telegraphing the noobness like a gigantic red light on the roof. Others will see that and give you the space. The only real danger is noobs vs noobs. Most groups break it up into 25 min runs, a novice group, and an experienced group. You go out in the novice group, and you go last. And u constantly glance in the mirror and u give a point by. My point is that lapping, track days, is *not* racing and if you act like it you get rightfully asked to leave. Dont brake while turning…my best advice. U will hear people talk about trail braking…just dont. Hammer those brakes in a straight line and turn in after being off the brakes. You will naturally drift towards trail braking later on.

Hey I know you are not saying you are going to go in racing others on a lap days. Im just sharing this because that’s exactly what i said and thought too!! haha.

Here was my first Track Day experience.

It was raining. It’s interesting how my own personal mental state of mind morphed -very quickly- as i went to the track for the first time. At first, I thought “oh yeah im a big dawg in my corvette (LOL so funny now that i look back) gonna whoop some butt”. But thats not me at all! Even though my head went there. I realized before id even parked my car in the paddock that i was the most newb clueless dude there. My ego left the building right away. I became ultra intimidated (im a confident guy typically, not shy, a social animal….so this feeling was a serious wake up call and i think it was my subconscious’s way of ensuring i didnt screw up other peoples or my day along with self preservation. haha. I spent the day scaring myself as i took the wrong line, into every corner, never building much speed on straights because there was a lineup of people i had (wanted to!! get these cars off my back!!) to let pass. Man i sucked hard. hahaha. But ohhhhhhh was I bit hard by the track bug. I fell in love instantly. My ultra timidness was also being egged on (i was trying to beat it back) by my ego because i was being passed by a) girls b) slow *** cars c) hair dressers cars d) 4 door sedans e) a Toyota lifted offroad 4runner. (for real).

So…long round about way of answering your question. Wont matter who is on track with u. What the cars are. U r getting passed like a pilon standing still. I routinely get passed by 70’s datsuns. 2020 vettes. I also routinely pass porsche rs’s, and bright wrapped Lambos. Its never, ever, EVER, about the car. Its about the driver skill and experience. You will want to join into the novice group, and u will have plenty of 150k+ cars in that group and u may even have worth less than your C4. Cheapest I see on track are the homda civics from the 90’s. Fantasticly cheap and adept starter platform. $100 junkyard engines replaced in a morning. Cheap tires and brakes. Guys run these for $2k all in. $1k for the car, and another 1k for tires and pads. Im in a C4 because I want to be and sounds like you do too. If i was closer to you id meet you at a track and help u through the first day! welcome to the madness go find a car.

A white noob (first time tracker) porsche gt3 got impatient with an equally noob evora….gt3 noob saw red, passed without a pointby end of the front straight. Frustrated. Evora didnt even know he was there. Evora turns in. Contact. Evora ends up flipping upside down with instructor in the car. Nobody hurt. impatient noob who passed, drives daddies gt3 home with gigantic evora tire mark and sideswipe damage. Not sure if anyone paid for anything. Porsche noob asked to leave and not come back ever. True story. Accidents, humanity, happens.

Take a car u love to the track. Remain humble as you have ever been. Enjoy some of the best friendships and kinship u will find. Find a car. Make a thread, cant wait to see it.



whoops.


glad nobody hurt.




edit/add: i should say that after three years of hdpe track days i did my first actual w2w race. Scary as F. I was suddenly mr noob again. all i saw was the blue flag. i was in a red honda civic. we still placed third and then second and then dnf as another drive had the engine blow up in his stint. done 3 so far. Actual racing is light years and i mean light years further down the road than track days.

hawk454

I tried SCCA TT-T2 (time trials in the Tuner 2 category). The C4 used to be T3 but some skilled drivers must have been doing well. Anyway, the category is for older cars to try to keep on par with each other. Top end suffers for me in my 1989 C4 but can make it up through the curves. The point system allows changes so going to smaller tire width (265) can allow other mods for example. You can spend a lot of time with pencil and paper in what if strategies for car configuration if you have time and budget. You are racing for quickest lap for position/points. Brakes heating up quickly is inherent to the C4 so cooling ducts are an easy DIY.

hornetball

You're getting good advice. Thought I'd add a bit about vintage racing. I'm a long time HPDE instructor, racer and current vintage racer. I vintage race a 1952 Jaguar, 1964 Corvette and 1969 Lotus Formula Ford. In "racing racing," I mostly drove Spec Miata. I've left that racing behind because I like classic cars and appreciate vintage racing's no-contact rules (we still have occasional contact unfortunately). I would love to prep a C4 for vintage racing . . . more on that later.

1. By all means, sign up for an HPDE and get hooked. Early on, I think you are best served by organizations that take the teaching aspect seriously, i.e., classroom instruction and in-car instructors. You'll simply make a lot more early progress that way. At some point, it becomes more about seat time with occasional coaching to get you over natural pauses.
2. The HPDE organization will assign you to your run group. If you are too advanced for that assignment, they will evaluate and move you. They'll take care of you. They want you to come back. Most instructors I know, me included, really enjoy teaching so long as the student is receptive. In HPDE, there are no car classes. The groupings are done by driver skill/experience and that is assessed by the instructors based upon your awareness, safety and ability to drive YOUR car at ITS limit.
3. Any convertible older than ~2007 (when federal rollover standards were tightened) will need a roll bar with most organizations. Some organizations, like BMW Club, won't accept a convertible unless it has a full race cage. 100% agree that getting a C4 coupe is the way to go.
4. HPDE is a heck of a lot of fun and you'll make good friends. Same for vintage racing.
5. Most vintage racing organizations have a 1972 cut-off for production cars. Vintage Motorsports Council is a good place to start learning about vintage racing (http://www.the-vmc.com/). You can see that there are several regional organizations. I mostly run with CVAR.
6. I've only seen a C4 at one SVRA event, and it was just being allowed to run laps unclassed. It was built to the SCCA "Corvette Challenge" rule set. Unfortunately, those cars raced in the late '80s, so don't get classed with other vintage race cars and are usually not accepted to events. In case you didn't know, the C4 was so far ahead of its peers in the 80s that the SCCA banned it from Showroom Stock competition. See https://www.hagerty.com/media/archiv...eing-too-good/.
7. Personally, I think that vintage racing will eventually have to move on past 1972. When that expansion comes, I think that early Spec Miatas, Corvette Challenge and IROC cars will become popular vintage racers.

VikingTrad3r

I love your comments as an instructor. I wish i had more access to instruction locally.

i chuckled at your comment about them getting banned. They are like a secret gem nobody knows or cares about! build your challenge tribute car! I am right there with u.

Corvette-ZL1

This is excellent information. Thanks for that!

69autoXr

If you're just dipping your toe into performance driving you might also consider autocross as a good way to get seat time experiencing handling at the limit, with relatively low risk. You could even run your convertible. If you can find events sanctioned by the National Council of Corvette Clubs (NCCC), you'll get a good amount of seat time in a typical day (usually 10-14 runs per day at NCCC events vs 4-6 at a typical SCCA autocross).