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Its taken me some time to really wrap my head around the car. They do look very nice and I had the opportunity to drive one and I was very impressed with the car overall. The performance was excellent and the exhaust sounded fantastic. The one drawback is the lack of a manual transmission. I understand that the current automatic trans is fantastic but when driving the car, something felt as though it were missing. If Chevrolet gave the option of a good manual transmission, I think it would give the car so much more of a connection to the driver. In a car that fast, I would never notice a half a second faster 0-60 from the automatic transmission, I would feel more in tune with the car and the driving experience would be that much better for me personally, if the car were offered with a manual transmission.
RE weight and size: the C8 is a big car, and there's no getting around that. But so was the C7, and even the C5/6 were a lot bigger (nut not heavier) than the C4. I wish they could have made the C8 at about 7/8 scale from what it actually is. Most of that weight is actually crash reinforcement and added chassis rigidity. Plus, I'm sure that DCT is at least 50lb heavier than a ZF6 or TH700...probably closer to 100lbs heavier. In terms of rigidity, that is party of what makes it a much better handling car than a C4. What's impressive, though, is that the size and weight doesn't keep it from being incredibly fast, even in small, technical courses like autocrosses where that should be penalizing it. It's not outside the range of a lot of other sports cars and super cars, though. For example, the NSX is at least 200lb heavier still.
RE the DCT: the car would actually be a lot slower with a regular manual. This isn't a direct result of the speed of the shifts, but rather it's because the C8 is gear super low and basically puts an entire extra gear into any given speed/acceleration interval. For example, most cars typically autocross in 2nd gear, whereas the C8 mostly runs in 3rd but the C8 will manage shifts up and down between 2nd and 3rd seamlessly. In a quarter mile, it will be using most of 5th. This means the engine is putting out much closer to peak power at all times when you're trying to go fast. I think the Z51 is geared at something like 5.33:1, and you would kill yourself trying to shift as much as that would require with a manual...and it would be slower because of the speed of a manual shift in a synchromeshed box. To run a manual, Chevy would have to drop the gearing to something like 3.73, like my Camaro has. The car would be significantly slower as a result. Again, having watched these things hustle around a road course and autocross course, I can tell you that the DCT is really, really good. It's a feature, not a bug. Of course, you can manually shift it any time you like, too, but even the best drivers in the country seem to be letting it do the shifting for them. OTOH, if you want a true manual, you can still get a Camaro 1LE like mine and do it the hard way.
The NSX is a hybrid and AWD, so of course it will weigh more than than the prior car. I still fail to see how they got the car so much heavier than the C5 and C6, and even the C7, and even more than a Volt. The Volt has a large battery pack, two motors, and an engine. That's a lot to pack into a sedan! The weight there makes sense. The C8, I just don't see it. I doubt that chassis weighs so much more than prior vettes. I doubt the engine weighs any more than prior ones, especially not the Z06 engine. I guess the transmission and, what? More insulation, maybe another 50lbs of it? I'd love to see one gutted of all the creature comforts, to see how much weight can be scrapped, and by how much. I bet it'd really smoke everything at the track if it where about 150-200lbs lighter. At least it's not as bad as the new M-series cars, those piggys are near, or more than 4,000lbs!
I'd love to get a tranny like that in our cars, lol. Can you imagine? It'd be heaven in the twisties and the track. I think GM ended up with the best shift logic we've ever seen out of a DCT.
I agree that more weight is not a good thing, but let's correct some things in the following quotes:
Originally Posted by novaks47
It still went the wrong direction with weight. 200lbs is a lot, especially in the corners. The C5 was lighter than the C4 by quite a bit.
Not really. Most base C4s seem to weigh under 3200lb, with the 3300lb figure that people toss around coming from the most optioned-up test cars Chevy could provide. The fancy seats in those versions alone probably add 100lbs to the car (I'm not kidding - the base seats in my C4 were lighter than replacement Sparcos!). A regular C5 weighed over 3200lb curb weight, officially. An FRC or Z06 was maybe 100lbs lighter. Very light, but not significantly lighter than an equivalent C4.
C6 was the same, then the C7 came along, and put on some weight, around 100lbs.
Only the Z06, with its aluminum and balsa unibody, was that light. A regular C6 was again well over 3200lbs. I always thought the light weight of the C6 Z06, despite its size and big/heavy rolling stock, was really impressive. The C7 added more like 250lb to the tally, being in the high 3300s for the Grand Sport (the equivalent of the C6Z). The C7 also stretched the wheelbase again over the C6.
Now the C8 comes along and gets even heavier. And then the Z06 comes in even heavier still, even with the track package, including carbon fiber wheels? WTF? The Corvette is now within 50lbs of a Mustang.
We don't know what the curb weight of the Z06 will be. I am quite sure it won't be within 50lb of a Mustang with similar power. A Mustang GT comes in at well over 3800lbs, but a GT500 (the only one with Z06 power levels) is over 4000lbs. A better comparison is the Camaro SS 1LE at 3720ish, and the ZL1 (again, this is the only Camaro with Z06 power levels) at close to 3900lb. Mustangs are f'ing heavy.
Meanwhile, Porsche with their 911 GT3, with all the modern stuff, comes in at 3150lbs. Sure, it's smaller than a C8, but just like the C8, is still larger than it's predecessors, yet minimal weight gain.
No, it hasn't grown at all. It still rides on the same 96" wheelbase that all 911 have. BTW, that's the same wb as a Viper and a C4. And a Gremlin (yes, really). Almost no modern cars are this small - I literally think no other RWD car is that small - and the only reason it can still get away with this is because it idiotically hangs its engine out behind the rear axle. Even the Cayman, which is built on the same frame but has a mid-engine layout, is longer. The 2022 GT3 is supposed to come in at 3300lb, so not as light as its predecessors (just like every other car we're discussing). It's an impressive car, but at twice the price of a Z06 C8, it damn well better be. And go try to buy one. I dare you. BTW, did I mention that a 2020 Z51 is within a 10th or two of a 2020 911 GT3 Cayman GT4 on an autocross course? The Z06 will be faster than all of those on the same course and an interesting challenge for the 2022 GT3...at half the price. And that 3850lb NSX? It won Nationals this year, besting all the GT3s and GT4s.
I'd love to see a C8 stripped down by someone, to see what could be shed, and how much weight could be lost.
We'll see how the C8Z really looks on the scales. I think it would be fun if Chevy had made it more of a stripped-down track monster. But realistically, that would maybe shave 50lb off the car. All the luxo touches don't add as much weight as people think in modern cars. It's all so integrated into the communications and display systems that the weight doesn't pile up like in the C4 days. Going back to the GT3, it's $4000 carbon fiber roof options saves a whopping...2lbs. That's not a typo. I think the best place to save weight on a Z06 will be minimalist race seats and the cat-back exhaust. Any dedicated owner could do that himself. Other than that, you're going to spend a ton to save very little weight.
OTOH, I could go on a diet and lose 50lbs and live a lot longer to enjoy whatever cars I own. And it would be a lot cheaper. Hmmm... Excuse me, I've gotta go to the gym.
Last edited by MatthewMiller; 11-26-2021 at 11:04 AM.
I nuked my old comment as you were typing, lol. I went back and confirmed weights, and thought, nope, I'm way off. For the Porsches, to me they look way bigger than they are. Not sure why, they're only a few inches longer and wider.
We already have a good idea what the Z06 will weigh. Dry weight with the Z07 package, is 3434.
I'd love to get a tranny like that in our cars, lol. Can you imagine? It'd be heaven in the twisties and the track. I think GM ended up with the best shift logic we've ever seen out of a DCT.
It's really impressive, especially in a car that cheap. I'm sure it's quite heavy, but IMO I think it is worth the weight penalty. Keep in mind that the Z51 C8 has one of the best 0-60mph ever recorded for any production car, and that's on real street tires instead of the track rubber that most other cars use in this range. It can only do that because it uses such a low final drive ratio and can get well into 3rd gear before 60mph.
A friend goosed his car next to a C8 going down the x-way. Horsepower wise, his car is the equal of a C8. Transmission/gear ratio wise, no contest. The dual clutched/dual shaft transmission keeps the engine in the power band so efficiently, the C8 just drove away from him. A 700R4 is like a rubber band powered toy car next to the C8 with its DCT.
RE the DCT: the car would actually be a lot slower with a regular manual. This isn't a direct result of the speed of the shifts, but rather it's because the C8 is gear super low and basically puts an entire extra gear into any given speed/acceleration interval. For example, most cars typically autocross in 2nd gear, whereas the C8 mostly runs in 3rd but the C8 will manage shifts up and down between 2nd and 3rd seamlessly. In a quarter mile, it will be using most of 5th. This means the engine is putting out much closer to peak power at all times when you're trying to go fast. I think the Z51 is geared at something like 5.33:1, and you would kill yourself trying to shift as much as that would require with a manual...and it would be slower because of the speed of a manual shift in a synchromeshed box. .
That's totally true. But at least you'd be DRIVING, and owning your own experience and results. That is worth more than a number on a lap time, to some.
That's totally true. But at least you'd be DRIVING, and owning your own experience and results. That is worth more than a number on a lap time, to some.
I understand your point, and it's valid in a way. Certainly, someone who can drive a stick shift has a skill that other drivers don't. It really comes down to your definition of "driving." My argument is that more owners of C8s (and SS 1LEs) can experience real driving than those of C4s, because the cars are so much better, so much safer, and so well equipped for track duty. If your definition of "driving" is more about lack of automation of functions, then no new car will suffice. But then again, every C4 you've ever driven had syncros, so that's part of the shifting that's automated even in a "manual." And the few people who know how to drive non-sychro manuals have a skill that even most manual drivers don't. So I could argue that real driving means you can't have syncros. Or a sequential shift pattern. Or power steering. Or power brakes. If you go down the logic path of that rule, then probably nobody in this forum is really "driving" anything. And neither is almost any professional race driver, BTW. Imagine telling Lewis or Max or Alex Palou that they aren't really driving their cars because a modern F1 or Indycar transmission isn't manual! Also, this definition really requires making a car handle badly so the driver has to do extra work to keep it pointed where he wants while going as fast as possible. Ergo, a C2/3 is a lot better car than a C4, which has pretty benign handling. If you want to take to a ridiculous extreme, then a distributor automates an important part of the engine's running, so you're only driving if you ignite the mixture in each cylinder yourself, keeping good time in your head (no watches allowed). No matter how much automation you remove, someone can always argue that you still have too much.
OTOH, the literal definition of "drive" is: to operate and control the direction and speed of a motor vehicle. I would state it as using the primary inputs to come as close to the perfect, fastest lap possible or to beat your competition, then I'd say that the automation of the shifting isn't really important in that equation. The main thing is that the primary inputs - steering, braking, and throttle - are not aided by computers and automation. Again, in any Corvette or Camaro you can turn all those aids off* and really drive the car. So I see no reason they are less of a driver's car. But we can agree to disagree on that.
*With the obvious exception of ABS. If you want to argue that ABS takes away a skill and reduces the driving content of the car, I would agree with that. But even the C4 had ABS that wasn't really defeatable by reasonable means. So it's no more of a driver's car than any later Vettes in that regard. It would be nice to have a switch to turn that off, but that would be a litigation nightmare. That's not Chevy's fault, and nobody produces cars where you can turn off ABS. However, it's notable that none of the top levels of motorsports allow ABS, nor should they.
My definition is something LIKE, "Immersion in the automotive experience"....or "engaged with the mechanism"....something like those.
So you're right; no new car will suffice, other than something like an Ariel Atom. New cars isolate too much, do too much for you, and do too much that you (I) don't even want them doing. I did say earlier, that I don't dislike the C8 for anything unique to the C8....it's a technical marvel. Unfortunately, it removes too many elements from the experience to be of any interest to me. It's a fantastic car for "other people".
And actually, the steering throttle and brakes ARE all aided/influenced by computers. In fact only one of those primary inputs is still physically connected to the servo unit/road, anymore (in the C8)
I got my driver's license in 1961, had one wreck about eight years ago when my ABS failed on my C4. I was breaking hard from 75 MPH to avoid an accident that was happening ahead on the freeway, about two seconds later I had to swerve, the rear brakes locked up and the car spun out and hit the concrete barrier. The rear wheels on my Ford truck lock up quite often. ABS, sorry, not impressed. My wife's last three Cadillacs have had the traction control fail. I wish the Government and the auto manufacturers would quit trying to help me.
I got my driver's license in 1961, had one wreck about eight years ago when my ABS failed on my C4. I was breaking hard from 75 MPH to avoid an accident that was happening ahead on the freeway, about two seconds later I had to swerve, the rear brakes locked up and the car spun out and hit the concrete barrier. The rear wheels on my Ford truck lock up quite often. ABS, sorry, not impressed. My wife's last three Cadillacs have had the traction control fail. I wish the Government and the auto manufacturers would quit trying to help me.
Are you sure its not sabotage, you've had alot of brake problems!
And actually, the steering throttle and brakes ARE all aided/influenced by computers. In fact only one of those primary inputs is still physically connected to the servo unit/road, anymore (in the C8)
Not aided, just connected electronically. The car doesn't do the steering for you at all, ever; and it won't actively intervene in your throttle inputs when all nannies are off. IOW, this is no different than a throttle cable or hydraulic steering assist, except that you can select different levels of assist and different throttle response curves based on your throttle input. But in neither case will the car do any of the driving for you.
We disagree on the term "intervening". In Tom's world, the very nature of the delayed throttle response that e-throttled cars have....and the very nature of being able to select different "throttle curves" is itself, an intervention of what your foot is doing and how throttle linkages have worked for about 120 years. I believe that Tq mgmt is also "there"...even w/everything turned off, but not sure about that.
I hear your perspective on all of it.....it's just not one that I care about or am interested in at all....in any new car. Thus....I can't love the C8.
It’s a remarkable machine however the technology tames it. The TCM protects the transmission and the stability control and traction control are never fully off.
You can’t really mod the car, can’t really buy one either though. A 495 horse C4 with a 6 speed is way more fun to drive
...the stability control and traction control are never fully off.
That's 100% wrong. If you don't know, don't post.
can’t really buy one either though.
I know plenty of people who have bought one. In fact, these seem like some of the only cars getting delivered to dealers right now. I don't know what you're talking about.
I know plenty of people who have bought one. In fact, these seem like some of the only cars getting delivered to dealers right now. I don't know what you're talking about.
The TCM is limiting torque on GM products with tables set in Newton Meters I’ve had a GM TCM unlocked and tuned it myself. I also know a GM engineer as I work for GM
11-25-2021, 09:44 PM
