Mr Mojo

After some review with the Admins I have to post this.

I'm not naming any names, but most of us know what is going on and it has been going on too long.

Perfusion

Rather than PM'ing you directly, I chose to post this here in the chance that others may have the same question. If it needs to be moved/deleted, so be it, but just know ahead of time that my intentions were honest. My question is about a specific portion of Section 2 -

So....does that mean if I purchase "Product X", install it on my car and really like it, that I can't inform others here of my satisfaction with the product? A couple examples of products that are brought up quite frequently, in my experience, are Exotic Muscle LT headers, and the CorvetteGadgetMan C4 Hatch Vent. To my knowledge, neither are Forum Vendors, but it's difficult to mention the product without indirectly promoting the company - their name IS the product! Knowwhattamean? And then when a company's web address is the same as their product (reference above listed products), it only makes it harder.

Basically, what's Kosher and what's not? If somebody asks where I got my headers, can I link them to EM, or do I just have to say "from Exotic Muscle," and leave it up to them to find the product?

I apologize in advance if I'm way off base here or something, but my initial interpretation of the Sticky was that we're not to "name names" unless a product is manufactured/distributed by a forum vendor.

Thanks for the clarification.

kwik_ta

:


I don't think that is exactly what he means... you are not fanatical about posting numerous threads about how much better you EM's are to someone elses choice. You are not soliciting others to follow your footsteps. You are merely stating your experience with your admiration of your choice.

Mr Mojo

Those words were written by Jim, the Administrator.

Specifically #2 as you quoted is just that. You can post your experiences, you just can't give contact info(phone # email, url's etc.
Saying EM gave you a good deal is OK.
I thought EM was a supporting vendor, I'll have to look into that.

GP's can be had if they are preapproved by the Admins.

If anyone can get us a deal on something and a supporting vendor doesn't offer it, that person can seek out savewave and obtain approval for the GP. They normally run no longer than 30 days at which time the post is removed.

A supporting vendor GP requires no approval from the forum, only the vendor.

My no naming names pertains to some particular individuals who I will not name.

I'm going to merge this with my sticky and unlock it for more feedback.

Perfusion

Thanks for the clarification. I looked back, and it is the case that EM is a supporting vendor. Their screen name is "Merle@Exotic Muscle".

ALLT4

I'm just gonna spit this out anyway it comes out. The whole supporting vendor thing bothers me just a tiny bit. We're here to share experiences good or bad with our fellow members and sometimes that will include a supporting or a non supporting member. I guess what I'm trying to get at is aren't we limiting our options by providing immunity so to speak to supporting vendors. I have nothing against any of them but little startups seem to behind the eightball here. They may offer a product way superior to that of a supporting vendor but can't get recognition (read sales) because the spot is already taken by one of the sidebar elite.

Ehhh, still didn't come out right but anyway...

OH, BTW Mojo, I think it shows some real class and trust on your part to open this for discussion.

jwt1603

And not to start anything but what do we do if we DO have a bad experience (after trying all realistic means of resolution) with a supporting vendor? If no negatives can be posted, not needless bashing, other Forum members could potentially suffer the same problems.

Alzado77

I'm more confused then ever Each time I purchase something and try something new I try to post a picture of it for referance to other members who might be thinking about looking into the same thing. I don't show favoritism to any vendor, I am just trying to spread pics and help forum members out with more information on the products out there that we all wonder about. Am I breaking the rules? I don't promote any company inparticular and am impartial good or bad. It seems to me that spreading more information is a good thing no matter if it is a supporting vendor or not. Vendor bashing, now that is a different matter all together but posting pics of products on our corvettes and mentioning where we got them seems like a good thing to me. I like to see all the options out there, not just the ones that support the forum although I always consider their products first. Am I misunderstanding something here?

Wayne88

Mr. Mojo,
I'm a little confused too.
Today you posted this:
How would the guidlines apply to this Post ???
Borla and Corsa both are supporting vendors- I think.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...05&forum_id=34

bogus

I agree with ALLT4.

I am not a fan of protecting the supporting vendors. If they sell junk or provide poor customer service, then let them swing. Protecting them is the worst kind of pandering.

I remember, most vividly, when Breathless was being raked over the coals due to the QC of their intakes. They deserved every bit of poor press they earned. But the forum was trying, in vain, to protect them and keep everything nice.

Life is neither fair or nice. So be it. Trying to protect the vendors leaves the membership at a huge disavantage. And that sure as hell isn't fair. Nor is it good stewardship. We, as members, hope the forum authorities are looking out for our best interests as well as those of the vendor - but the current structure does not give me that feeling.

When a car magazine takes advertizing, they do so realizing that a story they do or a letter they publish might just result in the loss of that account. Car and Driver lost Buick a bunch of years ago after C&D totally blasted them on the new Reatta.

LA Times has lost GM advertizing cause Dan Neill blasted GMs top brass, due to their lack of good business sense.

So, if I have cause to blast XYZ Corvette, then I should be allowed, and the forum should not be so damned afraid to loose an account.

Very poor.

Mr Mojo

I guess everyone needs to read it again.

You can post a negative experience as long as it is factual.

We don't defend supporting vendors, but if they're flamed, we put a stop to it, but that goes for anyone.

Put it this way, you pay for advertising and some other guy comes in and sells a similar product without paying for the same advertising.

How would you feel?

If you buy a product from a non supporting vendor, you can talk about it, but you can't hand out personal info. That is in a sense the same as free advertising.

Remember that this forum is privately owned and the Administrators make the rules. I'm here only to try and keep everyone in line with the guidelines and believe me it ain't easy with this crew.

This post was originally aimed at a certain group, but it applies to others as well which is why I chose to post it here as well as a few other places.

The rules that Jim has listed above have been in place for several years now, we've let a lot of things go, but when people are getting ripped off or accusing others of getting ripped off and those forum memebrs who are doing the supposed ripping off are not supporting vendors, we gotta sqaush it, because in the middle of these wars, other non supporting vendors come in and we have an 11 page flamefest.

We're not going to let that happen anymore.

Facts only, and only after there has been a reasonable attempt to resolve the situation offline.

ALLT4

It is the owners site and they have every right to do as they please and make the rules. However enforcing bias because of the money seems at odds with the whole intention of exchanging information freely for the betterment of our passion.

Let's take this exhaust example, I can only find two supporting vendors. So if I get a great deal from a dot com store only there's no way I can inform others of my good find because it's in direct conflict with forum rules. There is no brick and morter to speak of, only a website.

Personally I like links to websites that have deals that may be a little unknown. It'd be a shame to start having to make posts like...

Well we'll see how it goes anyway; sometimes I get argumentative for reasons I don't even understand.

I try to keep it civil though.

bogus

I find this statement to be the most telling. And my biggest bone of contention.

As a person of conviction, ethics, morallity and conscience, some of the actions of the administration of this forum come real close to breaching ones civil liberty.

There was a survey conducted several years ago, where everyman was questioned about the Bill of Rights. They were asked in laymans terms as to whether these rules would be good to enact. A majority of those surveyed would have denied half the Bill of Rights.

Just because something is private does not make it above the law.

I find this type of psychology is much like the way home owner and civic assoications are controlling the lives of their members.

It's a disturbing trend.

Perfusion

I dunno... I can clearly see both sides here - Mojo & Bogus - but to me, something just isn't "comfy" about what I'm interpreting about all of this. I've read the original post, re-read it, read it again, and then again, and although I can "understand" the words and how they're grouped together to form sentences, I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind them.

Example: A few weeks ago in OT, there was a thread about Chrysler towing employees' cars from certain spaces in its plant parking lot if the cars were non-Chrysler products. I suppose it is Chrysler's "right" to do that, but it sure as hell wasn't *proper.* Another situation was a major beer company firing an employee for drinking a competitor's beer - while off duty, mind you.

I'm getting the same feeling about this. Then again, how hard is it to become a Supporting Vendor? I know that if I had a product I was trying to bring to market, that's the first thing I'd do, but since I don't, I'll not drag that out.

One final example I'd like to inquire about involves a well-recognized car care product that is a forum vendor, and one that - as far as I can tell - is not. Of course, I'm talking about Zaino (has a "banner" on the left), and Meguiars. We need not even cite the number of threads PER DAY in the various sections of CorvetteForum that are comparos between the two products. So then...is someone who favors Meguiars - outwardly so, but without malice - at risk of being banned by the forum moderators/administrators because they're (to paraphrase a portion of Rule 2) "referencing a good experience with a non-supporting vendor that constitutes marketing and promotion"?

I understand that Zaino is a vendor, and Meguiars is simply a "product", but when you have discussions about detailing clinics being put on at Meguiars' shop in L.A. in the regional forums, or forum members with "Meguiar's Car Show" winning cars (cough, cough....black C5 with screaming yellow flames....<awesome, BTW>) in their sig pics, and so on, does this not also constitute a violation of the rules?

Clearly, some revisions and further clarifications of what is and what isn't allowed to be said (I can't believe that's even an issue... <hint, hint>) need to be undertaken by the Administration.

CentralCoaster

Supporting members pay fees. Members bashing them don't. This is all fine until a few dozen other non-paying members join the mob and run the supporting member off.

As long as everything is kept in check, and feedback threads don't go spinning out of control, I don't see a problem. Mojo is reasonable.

(I sure hope they pay you to babysit this crap!)

Wayne88

Let me throw my .02 in:

IMO, allot of the above is very ambiguous, which means much of this can be taken in 2 or more different ways.

I think it boils down to INTENT, [state of mind with which an act is done ].

If, by the example above, Mr. Mojo is posting his opinions of muffler brands to forum members with no commercial INTENT--Its OK.

If he were posting with the INTENT of commercially promoting or degrading a product--Its not OK.

The other issue of showing favoritism to supporting vendors: I have no opinion--Its not my money.

On the issue of groups with different screen names, posting with the INTENT of promoting and degrading products: They should be weeded out and dealt with.

Mr Mojo

Thank you Wayne.

Andy, as you know, being a private forum does not make us above the law, but on this forum, Troy is the law, it is his to do with as he pleases.

**I really hate to say this** Nobody is forced to be here, but those who choose to be here must follow the rules and guidelines that Troy has laid down.

It's all in black and white when you first registered and I've had the sticky up for God knows how long and yet people still don't listen.

I'm temporarily locking this till I get back from Bowling Green so I can properly address any more concerns.

If you are at the Cruise In, I will be open for discussion on this and any other issues you have.