supercharged guys...how much timing is everyone running?

zelement · 05-17-2004, 02:39 AM

I was wondering for most supercharged guys with aftermarket cams, how much base timing and total advance is everybody running with their setups?

Can you get away with more advance when running a bigger cam?

Thanks,

Paul

krivera · 05-17-2004, 02:11 PM

I am running about 35 degrees driving around daily but under boost i show 23 degrees with 91 octane but i have ran 26degrees with 110 octane. my cam i am running now is 218/230 @.50

AKS Racing · 05-18-2004, 12:03 AM

I run in the 42-46 in cruise mode, and run 32 under full boost. I run a solid roller with 238/246 @ 0.050 and ~0.640" lift. I see no spark knock, and think I could get away with more timing.

Aaron

zelement · 05-18-2004, 03:06 AM

AKS,

YOur cam has the same duration as mine. How much base timing are you running?

My timing is pretty close to yours as well. It's funny because mine would run very rough with less timing but at 38-40 it runs great but it is showing knock according to my scanner and it is retarding it by 7 degrees. I don't know what mine is at under full boost but I am scared to go more because I don't want detonation.

With 6 degrees base the car won't even idle, it would only idle with 10 degrees or more, right now I have it at 12 degrees base with a total of 40.

The more timing I put in it the better it seems to run.

Krivera,

Did Ed wright tell you what your timing should be at?

[Modified by zelement, 1:07 AM 5/18/2004]

krivera · 05-18-2004, 03:25 AM

Zelement...
No ed wright did not, but what i did was ran a scan and then ran many different speeds and full boost runs and then i created my own chip from his settings in tuner kitty. But all in all i could get away with more timing but i am the same as you i am afraid of blowing my car up due to detonation

zelement · 05-18-2004, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Zelement...
No ed wright did not, but what i did was ran a scan and then ran many different speeds and full boost runs and then i created my own chip from his settings in tuner kitty. But all in all i could get away with more timing but i am the same as you i am afraid of blowing my car up due to detonation

Do you know where you AFR is at?

Have you used the nitrous with the 383?

AKS Racing · 05-18-2004, 10:11 PM

Quote:

AKS,

Your cam has the same duration as mine. How much base timing are you running?

[Modified by zelement, 1:07 AM 5/18/2004]

Base timing is set at 6° (reference angle in the FAST program). What is the lift on your cam? What heads?

Quote:

My timing is pretty close to yours as well. It's funny because mine would run very rough with less timing but at 38-40 it runs great but it is showing knock according to my scanner and it is retarding it by 7 degrees. I don't know what mine is at under full boost but I am scared to go more because I don't want detonation.

With 6 degrees base the car won't even idle, it would only idle with 10 degrees or more, right now I have it at 12 degrees base with a total of 40.

[Modified by zelement, 1:07 AM 5/18/2004]

I may be at 6° base, but at an idle, I am already at 24° advance. I have run up into the 50° cruising, and the car seems very happy (no knock). Again, I pull out timing as boost increases to the 28-29° range, but lately I have been running in the 31-32° at full boost/load.

The key to making it work, is the ability to program (made possible in my combo via FAST) and a cool intake charge (even in South TX, I still run at ~90-110°F inlet charge temp cruising and moderate power). After several heavy pulls, the temp will get up into the 160-175° range, but cools down very quickly (this is possible with a large IC).

I am considering putting more timing into the motor, but am concerned with the fact that the higher compression ratio due to the SC is asking for less timing vs more timing. I really need to get back on the dyno with this car and try adjusting the timing both ways. Car seems to be happy pretty much anywhere +/-5° from 29° adv at full load.

BTW, I am assisting on the tuning of another with a 406 ci SBC, SR cam, and D-1. They have been running 30° adv at full boost.

Aaron

TONYDEE64 · 05-18-2004, 11:39 PM

How are you guys scanning for detonation. I have a solid roller so I was informed to not even try running a knock sensor...

zelement · 05-19-2004, 12:36 AM

thanks aaron for the reply.

Tony,

I cannot scan for detonation, only knock retard. The scanner is saying the knock sensor is detecting knock at close to full boost, but my mechanic think it is detecting false knock.

You won't believe how hard it is to find a good dyno shop that knows what they are doing around here. I really need to get it on to see what is going on.

TONYDEE64 · 05-19-2004, 12:49 AM

Hey Paul, I've been on the road for a few days. Did we ever find out the O2 guage? I was going to (I guess) just constantly check my plugs since I cannot use a knock sensor until I fees like I got a handle on it. I forget, are you tuning with a FAST ECU?

Tony

zelement · 05-19-2004, 03:32 AM

NO Tony, I am not using DFI or FAST. I think I am going to real soon though. Can't get the car to run correct with the custom chip stuff. Ed wright did my tuning but he is in Oklahoma and every time I call him I can't understand a word because of his thick accent.

I don't know ANYBODY here that knows how to tune with FAST or DFI. Everybody around here are tuning LS1 and that's it.

I guess a few guys in the C5 forum is using the FJO wideband O2 and they swear by it. I am going to order mine later this week.

I will let you know after I get it working.

HJV11 · 05-19-2004, 09:31 AM

My .02c

Aaron: what CR are you at, and how much boost are you running?

Tonydee: If you are looking at widebands I run the Innovate and love it. The only thing I would change is the physical size.

Zelement: Maybe I am way off base here but the way I understand it knock IS detonation. When you get knock (assuming it is not false) your sensor is detecting detonation. If you think you have false knock put some race gas 110/116 or some sort of octane booster and scan for knock again. If it's real it should be gone or alot less anyway.

RJ

[Modified by HJV11, 7:32 AM 5/19/2004]

TONYDEE64 · 05-19-2004, 11:21 AM

Quote:

NO Tony, I am not using DFI or FAST. I think I am going to real soon though.

If you get a FAST unit you can give me a call and I can walk you through both the install and the setup as I think I have a pretty good understanding of its operation. I would be willing to send you a good starting point program taylored for your car... I think you are severly limited by tuning simply with an A/F meter. The DFI systems are an absolute must if you are going to make big power...plus... your stock ECU can't recognize boost, can it?

Tony

[Modified by TONYDEE64, 12:19 PM 5/19/2004]

TONYDEE64 · 05-19-2004, 11:22 AM

[quote]

Tonydee: If you are looking at widebands I run the Innovate and love it. The only thing I would change is the physical size.
[quote]

Thanks RJ, I'll check it out!

zelement · 05-19-2004, 03:14 PM

Tony,

NO the stock computer cannot see boost. I am in the process of doing the Typhoon and cylone ECM swap with a 2 or 3 bar map sensor.

There is a few guys locally that is going to help me with that. They swear by it so I will try that first. Plus, it is thousands cheaper.

I appreciate your offer, when I get to that point you will be the first I call.

RJ, I will try some race gas and detect for knock again.

TONYDEE64 · 05-19-2004, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Tony,

NO the stock computer cannot see boost. I am in the process of doing the Typhoon and cylone ECM swap with a 2 or 3 bar map sensor.

There is a few guys locally that is going to help me with that. They swear by it so I will try that first. Plus, it is thousands cheaper.

If I had your money the grand wouldn't bother me.. you probably spend more than that on lunch....right?

My offer to help is open at anytime....!!!!! You should look for a used FAST of Accel box on E-bay... good deals there from time to time... I have all of the instructions to wire this into your car since it is the same year as mine!

zelement · 05-19-2004, 10:20 PM

Ok fine you talked me into it.

I think I am going to buy the DFI setup from TJwong this week.

After I get it installed I will take you up on that offer.

Brand-X · 05-19-2004, 10:54 PM

Accel Gen VII+ w/wideband o2...it makes things easier to tune!!

TONYDEE64 · 05-20-2004, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Ok fine you talked me into it.

I think I am going to buy the DFI setup from TJwong this week.

After I get it installed I will take you up on that offer.

Paul,

I have never tuned a Accell box per se but I'm sure it is very similar to the Fast. Since I have a FAST box I could make you a program for you to start with, I could e-mail it to you. I could not do that with the Accel box.. Of course the idea behind each box is very similar... but I could walk you right through the FAST route.... you won't be sorry!!!! If I were to be totally honest I would look REAL hard at John Meaney's Bigstuff 3 . He is just getting it to the market and he is the guy who designed the Fast and ( I think) Accel gen VI boxes. Of course along with his box you get his unrivaled tuning expertise!!! You'll find that when you get this level it's ALL about the tune if you want it run strong and stay together!!! Plus, once you get your box figured out (which is easy) you will feel very empowered and able to make changes on your own!!

AKS Racing · 05-20-2004, 09:12 AM

Quote:

My .02c

Aaron: what CR are you at, and how much boost are you running?

[Modified by HJV11, 7:32 AM 5/19/2004]

I am running 9.4:1 SCR. Last time I had it on the dyno, I was at ~10 psi. I have since upped the boost to 14, and it seems to do well (probably added a bit more HP). I am currently working on a system (ala adjustable boost controller) to allow 10 psi in 1st , 13 psi in 2nd, and full boost (should be 18 psi) in the upper gears to allow quicker 1/4 times. This is quite neat in concept.

Aaron