Switching to a single plane intake!
09-08-2014, 09:04 PM
#102
Burning Brakes
Seeing that your last 1/4 mile test run with the new setup was 3 Mph slower in the trap from your previous setup; wondering if there was something already brewing and it finally let go, I guess once you find out the failure you might have some clue.
05-17-2015, 02:22 PM
#103
Melting Slicks
Did you ever tweak things and get better results? I am suprised you are seeing a decrease in top end power with the single plane as most f body conversions see a healthy top end increase with a marginal loss in low and midrange. I am wondering if it's a mismatched combo of parts, slowing down your port velocity with increased volume will hurt power until port speed increases at which point you gain your rpm band and power making potential. Sounds like the blower is to small as well as the cam possibly. If your at max impeller speed so early your making bad (hot) air without the benefits of a mechanical A2A or W2A intercooler.
Just curious to see what you came up with. I'm doing a single plane setup, but I am using an LT4 style tall port head design matched to the race gasket. The intake manifold is also blended and smoothed to maintain a nice port section area change ratio.. No waves that create reversion or slinky effect once valve begins to open.
Also another concern I would have if you are running method as chemical intercooler is is the liquid being able to make the 180 degree turn from throttle body to drivers side bank. I would look at switching to e85 which is distributed through your port injection which will handle the cooling and increase octane. Another factor is adjusting your cylinder trims, the tune from the super ram probably has some cylinders trimmed differently for air distribution of the stock/sr manifold. This new single plane will be different. I would put the O2 on the passenger side center exhaust runners and from the plumbing design these will be the lean cylinders seeing the shortest most direct air path. I put bungs on all primaries and moved the wbo2 from one to the next to trim my cylinder balance with the turbo because I was certain 20+ psi would change the dynamic of the manifold, I am glad I did, the stock lt1 settings were very different at those inlet air speeds and boost.
I use dfi gen7 which allowed me to tune the cylinder trims for both off boost and boosted conditions which made the engine respond and run smoother. Also moved my knock threshold 3 degrees higher because the guilty lean cylinder was now being adequately fueled. My next step is 8 egt sensors and 8 wbo2 sensors to really get a solid picture of what is going on with fuel and timing and trimming both per cylinder to really balance what happens between boost, afr, egt, timing and torque and power output on the dyno. I'm curious to see how a nicely balanced setup also effects spool.
We shall see!
Just curious to see what you came up with. I'm doing a single plane setup, but I am using an LT4 style tall port head design matched to the race gasket. The intake manifold is also blended and smoothed to maintain a nice port section area change ratio.. No waves that create reversion or slinky effect once valve begins to open.
Also another concern I would have if you are running method as chemical intercooler is is the liquid being able to make the 180 degree turn from throttle body to drivers side bank. I would look at switching to e85 which is distributed through your port injection which will handle the cooling and increase octane. Another factor is adjusting your cylinder trims, the tune from the super ram probably has some cylinders trimmed differently for air distribution of the stock/sr manifold. This new single plane will be different. I would put the O2 on the passenger side center exhaust runners and from the plumbing design these will be the lean cylinders seeing the shortest most direct air path. I put bungs on all primaries and moved the wbo2 from one to the next to trim my cylinder balance with the turbo because I was certain 20+ psi would change the dynamic of the manifold, I am glad I did, the stock lt1 settings were very different at those inlet air speeds and boost.
I use dfi gen7 which allowed me to tune the cylinder trims for both off boost and boosted conditions which made the engine respond and run smoother. Also moved my knock threshold 3 degrees higher because the guilty lean cylinder was now being adequately fueled. My next step is 8 egt sensors and 8 wbo2 sensors to really get a solid picture of what is going on with fuel and timing and trimming both per cylinder to really balance what happens between boost, afr, egt, timing and torque and power output on the dyno. I'm curious to see how a nicely balanced setup also effects spool.
We shall see!
05-18-2015, 06:13 AM
#104
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Hi Chris!
I got fed up with the car after I spun a rod bearing on my way to the dyno end of last year.
I have finally got a grip on myself and pulled the engine. Almost all bearings trashed, grooves in the crank, damaged rod and scratched piston bores etc etc. I suspect someone involded in the short block assembly (not me of course
) made some less than perfect work.
Outside the above, I think the camshaft was not a good match for the SP intake. I have now a new one from Mike Jones that is about to peak well above 6000 rpms.
Not very fond of E85 since I would need to upgrade both injectors and fuel pumps (again).
Got the crank cut and all bores cleaned out (honed) but it looks like the bearing clearences are too tight on mains and rods so some more machining necessary before final assembly. I still have hopes there will be some crusing before end of the season.
I got fed up with the car after I spun a rod bearing on my way to the dyno end of last year.
I have finally got a grip on myself and pulled the engine. Almost all bearings trashed, grooves in the crank, damaged rod and scratched piston bores etc etc. I suspect someone involded in the short block assembly (not me of course
) made some less than perfect work.Outside the above, I think the camshaft was not a good match for the SP intake. I have now a new one from Mike Jones that is about to peak well above 6000 rpms.
Not very fond of E85 since I would need to upgrade both injectors and fuel pumps (again).
Got the crank cut and all bores cleaned out (honed) but it looks like the bearing clearences are too tight on mains and rods so some more machining necessary before final assembly. I still have hopes there will be some crusing before end of the season.
Last edited by bogor; 05-18-2015 at 06:17 AM.
05-18-2015, 11:09 AM
#105
Melting Slicks
Been there done that with the bearings... No fun! That makes sense on why power was down. While the block is out of the car, it's a good time to do some high power high rpm oiling mods.
You can radius all the oil ports from the pump base, rear main cap, oil filter boss, distributor hole where the oil holes go around the distributor shaft (careful not to vertically groove the distributor bore). If your thinking of spinning near 7k rpm, you can drill the galleys, 1/2" on center top galley, 7/16" on the two sides galleys, Careful not to go to far and hit the threads for the tapered threaded plugs on the back of the block. You'll need to use larger threaded pipe plugs on the front gallery openings. They will need to be tapped but not too deep, just enough for the plugs to be flush with the block. Drill a .015- .020" hole through the center of the top plug (this keeps the front bearing from starving due to airlock on start ups). Drill the center three mains with a 5/16" drill rod, go all the way through the main webs, through the cam bore and into the top oil galley. These three passages feed 2 rod bearings each while the front and rear feed one rod each). The Angled intersecting drill bore from the rear main oil pump feed to the filter boss should be honed and if you can radius the intersection peak with a long ball stone this helps. Ensure your block off plugs are set at the correct depths, this is very important!
Do not use the oil filter adapter (if it's like the lt1 corvette that offsets to clear the factory cats, it's very restrictive). With long tubes, you can use a non bypass spin on filter adapter and a Fram racing HP4 filter (these are made by wix and have a thicker anti ballooning case, lots of filter element surface area and are high flow with excellent filtering.
I prefer a liberty standard Volume oil pump with a high pressure spring for use with Canton oil pans. Blue print the oil pump, many great articles on this are available. Use a 7 quart pan, miloden has a nice one with a diamond scraper and windage tray available for it. You will need to use the specified pump with the milodon pan with correct pickup. Be sure to only use a 3/4" diameter pickup type pump and be sure the pickup has a mechanical fastening method so it doesn't fall out. If you have to weld it, remove the pressure spring first so you don't remove the spring tempering and cause faulty low pressure bypassing.
Open up the oil returns on the cylinder heads and smooth them. Open up the oil returns in the back of the lifter valley and port them nice and smooth. These can be made quite large safely, but it's good to have some reading material on it the first time. The front oil returns should also be smoothed and the opening lowered and radiused both at the front of the block and in the lifter valley.
Use return vent stands in the center oil return holes in the lifter valley, these will need to be tapped to install, but will keep oil from falling on the crank and misting and frothing.
Always use new cam bearings! When installing the camshaft be very careful not to score the bearings as these motors feed the mains from oil going around the cam bearings, scoring them creates a pressure loss path.
For any motor over 500hp or 6500rpm I strongly recommend using valvoline racing oil with zdp. It goes a long way to protecting bearings under high loads. Use 10w-30, higher rpm and thick oil is a bad idea as it doesn't flow as easily and we want uniform pressure at bearings to create the film that keeps parts from touching.
Jury is out on this, but you can also fill the block with a half fill to keep the block from shifting. This should only be done with torque plates or cylinder heads installed and torqued down and allowed to set before removing. I really prefer to do this prior to machining and leaving the torque plates on for boring and honing and line boring to ensure the block will be square and in shape when assembled.
Ultimately the best course of Action is to use a dart shp block if for no other reason than all these things are done already and it offers priority main oiling, is stronger, doesn't require block fill and will allow lots of horsepower and long engine life.
But if that's not an option, the above mods pay off in spades towards helping an engine live at higher rpm and HP levels.
Good luck getting her back together, can't wait for your results with a nicely matched top end!
PS... A walbro 450lph is an easy in tank replacement, is e85 compatible, and is cheap at $130 bucks. And good for 700whp. Injectors would need to be bigger too but the safety of running cheap pump race gas with awesome cooling effect especially for non intercooled Blower serious is in my mind a no brainer.
Chris
You can radius all the oil ports from the pump base, rear main cap, oil filter boss, distributor hole where the oil holes go around the distributor shaft (careful not to vertically groove the distributor bore). If your thinking of spinning near 7k rpm, you can drill the galleys, 1/2" on center top galley, 7/16" on the two sides galleys, Careful not to go to far and hit the threads for the tapered threaded plugs on the back of the block. You'll need to use larger threaded pipe plugs on the front gallery openings. They will need to be tapped but not too deep, just enough for the plugs to be flush with the block. Drill a .015- .020" hole through the center of the top plug (this keeps the front bearing from starving due to airlock on start ups). Drill the center three mains with a 5/16" drill rod, go all the way through the main webs, through the cam bore and into the top oil galley. These three passages feed 2 rod bearings each while the front and rear feed one rod each). The Angled intersecting drill bore from the rear main oil pump feed to the filter boss should be honed and if you can radius the intersection peak with a long ball stone this helps. Ensure your block off plugs are set at the correct depths, this is very important!
Do not use the oil filter adapter (if it's like the lt1 corvette that offsets to clear the factory cats, it's very restrictive). With long tubes, you can use a non bypass spin on filter adapter and a Fram racing HP4 filter (these are made by wix and have a thicker anti ballooning case, lots of filter element surface area and are high flow with excellent filtering.
I prefer a liberty standard Volume oil pump with a high pressure spring for use with Canton oil pans. Blue print the oil pump, many great articles on this are available. Use a 7 quart pan, miloden has a nice one with a diamond scraper and windage tray available for it. You will need to use the specified pump with the milodon pan with correct pickup. Be sure to only use a 3/4" diameter pickup type pump and be sure the pickup has a mechanical fastening method so it doesn't fall out. If you have to weld it, remove the pressure spring first so you don't remove the spring tempering and cause faulty low pressure bypassing.
Open up the oil returns on the cylinder heads and smooth them. Open up the oil returns in the back of the lifter valley and port them nice and smooth. These can be made quite large safely, but it's good to have some reading material on it the first time. The front oil returns should also be smoothed and the opening lowered and radiused both at the front of the block and in the lifter valley.
Use return vent stands in the center oil return holes in the lifter valley, these will need to be tapped to install, but will keep oil from falling on the crank and misting and frothing.
Always use new cam bearings! When installing the camshaft be very careful not to score the bearings as these motors feed the mains from oil going around the cam bearings, scoring them creates a pressure loss path.
For any motor over 500hp or 6500rpm I strongly recommend using valvoline racing oil with zdp. It goes a long way to protecting bearings under high loads. Use 10w-30, higher rpm and thick oil is a bad idea as it doesn't flow as easily and we want uniform pressure at bearings to create the film that keeps parts from touching.
Jury is out on this, but you can also fill the block with a half fill to keep the block from shifting. This should only be done with torque plates or cylinder heads installed and torqued down and allowed to set before removing. I really prefer to do this prior to machining and leaving the torque plates on for boring and honing and line boring to ensure the block will be square and in shape when assembled.
Ultimately the best course of Action is to use a dart shp block if for no other reason than all these things are done already and it offers priority main oiling, is stronger, doesn't require block fill and will allow lots of horsepower and long engine life.
But if that's not an option, the above mods pay off in spades towards helping an engine live at higher rpm and HP levels.
Good luck getting her back together, can't wait for your results with a nicely matched top end!
PS... A walbro 450lph is an easy in tank replacement, is e85 compatible, and is cheap at $130 bucks. And good for 700whp. Injectors would need to be bigger too but the safety of running cheap pump race gas with awesome cooling effect especially for non intercooled Blower serious is in my mind a no brainer.
Chris
Last edited by lcvette; 05-18-2015 at 11:26 AM. Reason: typos
05-18-2015, 03:12 PM
#106
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Whoa, alot of excellent info-thanks!
I dont think I will go beyond 6500 rpms so I hope at least the stock pan will do. I have also got a new oil pump (melling M155) with the 3/4" tube though.
All bearings incl cam bearings will replaced. I would loveto have aSHP block but I have sunk too much money in this one ( and the USD is currently quite expensive).
I will prob start with regular gas but if necessary look into E85 ( I have actually had it in mind, all fuel hoses are in PTFE)
I dont think I will go beyond 6500 rpms so I hope at least the stock pan will do. I have also got a new oil pump (melling M155) with the 3/4" tube though.
All bearings incl cam bearings will replaced. I would loveto have aSHP block but I have sunk too much money in this one ( and the USD is currently quite expensive).
I will prob start with regular gas but if necessary look into E85 ( I have actually had it in mind, all fuel hoses are in PTFE)
09-24-2015, 01:59 PM
#107
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Finally back in business! After almost total rebuild its running again
New bearings, line honing, block honing, one new piston, one rod renovated etc etc
I think its sound pretty good now (click on the pic for sound), my new Mike Jones camshaft might have something to do with it.
Need to do some tuning before going to the dyno
New bearings, line honing, block honing, one new piston, one rod renovated etc etc
I think its sound pretty good now (click on the pic for sound), my new Mike Jones camshaft might have something to do with it.
Need to do some tuning before going to the dyno
09-26-2015, 01:46 PM
#111
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I made some initial road tuning today. Since I still have some bugs to work out I never went higher than 5000 rpms. I have switched to a larger 3.5" pulley so boost is down from about 9 psi to 6 @5000 rpm. Looks like Im down on power vs my old superram combo. Based on injector duty cycle I estimate power to about 375-390 fwhp @ 5000 compared to about 475-500 rwhp for the superram (and old cam). I suspect things will start to look better when I go beyond 5000 rpms. Unfortunately my old 3" pulley will result in overspinning the blower at 5800, might have to call Greg@blowerworks for his 3.25" megagrip pulley.