This is what I get by doing some research. Now I see this age old technology of gaseous intercooling right when I am fighting installing my intercoolers into my '91 L98. I have been on blowerworks.net and reading about their system. I have read some of Greg Carroll's "semi-white paper" on the benifits BUT I have air to air mechanical intercoolers. I only plan to run 6 psi boost, I do not play to race SO am I making a mistake by continuing with air to air intercooler install.
If this has been asked before just point me to the threads.
Maybe I should get off the internet.
Comments please.
Last edited by jmyokley; 03-02-2006 at 07:54 PM.
Reason: added comments
This is what I get by doing some research. Now I see this age old technology of gaseous intercooling right when I am fighting installing my intercoolers into my '91 L98. I have been on blowerworks.net and reading about their system. I have read some of Greg Carroll's "semi-white paper" on the benifits BUT I have air to air mechanical intercoolers. I only plan to run 6 psi boost, I do not play to race SO am I making a mistake by continuing with air to air intercooler install.
If this has been asked before just point me to the threads.
Maybe I should get off the internet.
Comments please.
Are you tired of hearing from me yet.
I think you need to get some books on superchargers
by Corky Bell and A Grahm Bell.
Once you get the intercoolers installed there are no moving parts to stop working and cause damage.
There are a lot of folks here that use Greg's setup with a great deal of sucsess.
There is no doubt he knows what he is talking about.
i like gaseous intercoolin better. especially for our cars.
its almost impossible to get the air to air mounted right and the plumbing is a PITA. now on another car id say front mount all the way.
but for our cars unless going to alot of boost(in which case id use both possible) go with meth injection and be done with it.
most people even say that 6 lbs wont need intercooling. i guess with a stock engine itll def help keep it intact.
corky bell makes a great book!
i just got his turbo book a couple weeks back
its great stuff
This is what I get by doing some research. Now I see this age old technology of gaseous intercooling right when I am fighting installing my intercoolers into my '91 L98. I have been on blowerworks.net and reading about their system. I have read some of Greg Carroll's "semi-white paper" on the benifits BUT I have air to air mechanical intercoolers. I only plan to run 6 psi boost, I do not play to race SO am I making a mistake by continuing with air to air intercooler install.
If this has been asked before just point me to the threads.
Maybe I should get off the internet.
Comments please.
Please be careful to weed through the advice and pay strict attention to those folks who actually have experience in FI applications. It sucks to spread information on either EtOH/MeOH injection, or ICs for that matter, when you have not run either.
A good place to start is to get the system installed and tuned, then follow with a check of IATs. With a fairly stock motor and only 6 psi boost, EtOH/MeOH injection may be unneccesary (and possibly the IC as well).
Listen to this man!!!
FWIW, I'm STILL using the FMIC that came with my procharger. At 12 lbs. of boost my IATs are coming in around 148F. At 6 lbs. I probably wouldn't run one.
Please be careful to weed through the advice and pay strict attention to those folks who actually have experience in FI applications. It sucks to spread information on either EtOH/MeOH injection, or ICs for that matter, when you have not run either.
A good place to start is to get the system installed and tuned, then follow with a check of IATs. With a fairly stock motor and only 6 psi boost, EtOH/MeOH injection may be unneccesary (and possibly the IC as well).
Aaron
not that i really care what ne on thinks... but i havent been on here lately bc of my new job at a local speed shop. the only C4 we see is mine.
but we see tons of lt1 f bodies and all c5s as well as all old skool muscle cars.
the f body lt1 procharger kits that have dual intercoolers are a POS
imho. the intercoolers sit flush with the ground. whats that do? yea it helps a little but compared with a front mount its like comparing martha stuert to jesse jackson. sure in the shop on the dyno all is well but what about the street...
whats the point of an intercooler? to allow air to pass over it to take heat out of the charge does it do that... idk sure dont look like it does much.
i know oyu can get the frount mount infrount of th eradiator... but doesnt that block air to the radiator and still not get tons of air past it?
i hav etons of friends with cars(imports) that run stock engines and a sc or TC with 12 psi running no intercooler or alcohol inject and do fine. and i have some friends who run 15 psi and run both a huge frount mount and meth. one of my friends even does meth mixed with 10% nitrometh and toulene in the tank on an STI. it all depends on set up.
im more of an import guy myself and get all my ideas from that a friends cars and use those priciples to transfer that to these cars.
i also said none was probally necessary.
i doubt the man will even ge a supercharger...because i asked the same damn thing at a time and where am i... with n20..
alot of it too depends on what type of weather you live in. hot weather = hotter IATs.
none of this matters.... because like i said i doubt hell go through with it.
Thanks for the replys, I will do more research this weekend and try to determine what is best for me but for now thanks for the comments and thoughts on the issue.
I've been on this thread for awhile & since our cars are similar ('90) I thought I'd finally respond.
I picked up a D-1 kit a few months ago here on the forum, but it was for an older car (85-88?) with the single IC. The plumbing was just NOT going to work with our tilted radiator & I have both installation manuals, the one for the older & the 89-90 twin IC that ATI was nice enough to send me. After testing & measuring & then some research on Greg's Blowerworks web site I decided to go alc/water from Greg & ditch the IC & all of the issues that go with it's fitment.
I can't really give you any real world results yet as I am just now finishing & ready for some test drives in the next week or so. For me, it seemed like the best solution. You will have to take what info you get here, do some research on your own & then take the plunge.
Good luck though & keep us in the loop on your progress.
I only plan to run 6 psi boost, I do not play to race SO am I making a mistake by continuing with air to air intercooler install.
You will have a pressure drop accross the intercooler (and with a C4 it usually a significant amount, 2-3pis if I remember right) You may need to compensate your blower pulley for that if you still want to have 6psi. Intercoolers and water/alcohol injection do work, if you have it I would install the intercooler and you can install both. You should see what your IAT are and go from their.
Some people think I'm against mechanical intercoolers - now wherever did they get that idea? There are all kinds of trade offs in life - should you marry a very rich girl or one that can cook with no money? Or maybe if the sex is really good the hell with the rest? But then that decision may change with time and your age?
Same thing with intercoolers. Good engineering dictates you evaluate the application. Is it important my A/C is fully functional at idle on a hot day? etc., etc.....
My work has mostly focused on maintaining a fully functional Vette with no trade offs when it comes to maintaining a nice street ride and all the creature comforts the Vette comes with. Also if I sell a S/C kit to an owner with a stock engine and the hyperutectic pistons my first goal is to keep him/her as a lifelong customer: that means protect the pistons at all costs.
Whether you mechanically intercool or not injecting some water (not alcohol) has the distinct advantage of lowering the exhaust gas temperatures by 200 or so degrees F. The water, as it turns to steam inside the combustion chamber, absorbs a tremendous amount of heat. The effect is to cool the piston tops and exhaust valves. Engines designed from the ground up for forced induction typically squirt engine oil onto the piston undersides - thus cooling them and preventing melt down when the peak cylinder combustion temperatures soar as they do with forced induction. Chevy small blocks have no piston oil squirters: the water does a great job of protecting those pistons, especially cast ones prone to cracking. Additionally, the steam slows down the flame propagation: critically important in preventing detonation while maintaining a decent spark curve. Why add 10 pounds of boost or so if you have to take 20 degrees of spark out? Now add a little alcohol to the water mix and you can drop the intake temperatures even more: but maintain a 50/50 mix to protect those pistons.
At boost pressures less than 10 psig and given an efficient centrifugal compressor the air discharge temperature may not be high enough to warrant a mechanical intercooler: especially in light of the pressure drop across the intercooler given that the belt HP the centrifugal draws from the engine goes up as a 'cube' in direct proportion to CFM. I'll print the centrifugal fan laws here but don't know how to express squares or cubes here. CFM1/CFM2 = RPM1/RPM2 = (SP1/SP2) square root of = (BHP1/BHP2) cube root of.
Hence, if you add a mechanical intercooler, it requires some power to pump air thru it. A lot of the power required is turned into the heat of compression. If you can't remove the added heat then you have taken a step backwards. This is not to say don't intercool - it just says you've got to make a total evaluation - as many Forum members are saying in their above comments.
Given the complexity of the mechanical intercooler piping and the fact for that intercooler to work it must be placed in front of the Vette radiator I've opted for what I call "Gaseous Intercooling", i.e. high pressure water/alcohol injection. This is particularly true when the Vette is sitting at a traffic light on a hot day and the radiator cooling air is recicirculating under your vehicle. Just take any stock Vette on a warm day, turn on the A/C, and sit and watch your engine coolant temperatures climb ( no matter how big the radiator is) !!!
These comments apply to daily street driven rides where the owner is not necessarily a 'motorhead' and he/she is unaware of the trade-offs made when intercooling.
not that i really care what ne on thinks... but i havent been on here lately bc of my new job at a local speed shop. the only C4 we see is mine.
but we see tons of lt1 f bodies and all c5s as well as all old skool muscle cars.
the f body lt1 procharger kits that have dual intercoolers are a POS
imho. the intercoolers sit flush with the ground. whats that do? yea it helps a little but compared with a front mount its like comparing martha stuert to jesse jackson. sure in the shop on the dyno all is well but what about the street...
whats the point of an intercooler? to allow air to pass over it to take heat out of the charge does it do that... idk sure dont look like it does much.
i know oyu can get the frount mount infrount of th eradiator... but doesnt that block air to the radiator and still not get tons of air past it?
i hav etons of friends with cars(imports) that run stock engines and a sc or TC with 12 psi running no intercooler or alcohol inject and do fine. and i have some friends who run 15 psi and run both a huge frount mount and meth. one of my friends even does meth mixed with 10% nitrometh and toulene in the tank on an STI. it all depends on set up.
im more of an import guy myself and get all my ideas from that a friends cars and use those priciples to transfer that to these cars.
i also said none was probally necessary.
i doubt the man will even ge a supercharger...because i asked the same damn thing at a time and where am i... with n20..
alot of it too depends on what type of weather you live in. hot weather = hotter IATs.
none of this matters.... because like i said i doubt hell go through with it.
ahhh whatever
Well that was helpfull, are we having a bad day?
John allready has the supercharger and the intercoolers, he is just having a hard time with the install, and is considering dumping the IC for Greg's setup.
My buddy has a N/A 383 stroker built by Chuck Mallett. He runs WI/MI and he gets an extra 2-3-degrees of timing, zero knock, and AFRs about perfect.
Also, the Supra guys run both intercooling and WI/MI, and we all know how much HP those guys are pushing. I think gaseous intercooling is a worthwhile mod. I would do both if I could, but thats me.
What happens if your water injection rus out of water?
That would be my question too. I guess you pull over and fill up. I would think systems like blowerworks will run as long as a gas fill up and you could fill up with water at that point.
I am determined to get my air to air installed and see how that flys then see if I need to inject. One thing at a time.
well if it was me iwould go for a air to air, then through a air to water that is switchable and is pre cooled by the AC, then inject water and meth, then run N2o for really low intake temps!
oh and then i would look into an over presurising sytem! these run higher boost than you want, then run the air throuhg your intercooler and then you tap of the presure to what you want to get sub abient temps (with just an intercooler)!
well if it was me iwould go for a air to air, then through a air to water that is switchable and is pre cooled by the AC, then inject water and meth, then run N2o for really low intake temps!
oh and then i would look into an over presurising sytem! these run higher boost than you want, then run the air throuhg your intercooler and then you tap of the presure to what you want to get sub abient temps (with just an intercooler)!
but thats just be being crazy again! lol
Chris.
Seriously you wouldn't need all those systems. My truck has a water/air intercooler that isn't exact the greatest absorber of heat and I inject methanol. My Intake air temps are right around ambient temps at WOT. For instance on 70 degree day, my starting IAT temps would be 90 degree at the starting line of a 1/4 mile run. By the end it would be around 70 degrees, if I didn't have a water injection it would be around 120 at the end.
That would be my question too. I guess you pull over and fill up. I would think systems like blowerworks will run as long as a gas fill up and you could fill up with water at that point.
I am determined to get my air to air installed and see how that flys then see if I need to inject. One thing at a time.
I think it depends on how it is water injection itself is designed. My alcohol injection has a low resevoir LED. It will not automatically shut off but I can manually shut it off. I do my own custom chips and typically with an alky injection you need to remove some fuel to compenate for what is being injected. I am haven't done it yet, but I am going to be removing fuel via Intake Air Temps so if the water injection fails my motor won't go south from a lean condition.
Nobody seemed to pick up my point that if your water, alky, no2, or whatever cooling substance you use can run out causing detonation & a damaged motor. FMU's can also fail which happend to me. $6K to rebuild. If I supercharge again, I will use an intercooler, or not depending on intake air temp, and tune fule with a PCM, not an FMU. I have found two tunners (pcmforless is one) who can tune a boosted motor with a 95 LT1 computer up to 600-650 HP. I would not risk my expensive motor with a falable system again. Computers can fail aswell, but still much less of a risk than the alternatives in my opinion.
Nobody seemed to pick up my point that if your water, alky, no2, or whatever cooling substance you use can run out causing detonation & a damaged motor. FMU's can also fail which happend to me. $6K to rebuild. If I supercharge again, I will use an intercooler, or not depending on intake air temp, and tune fule with a PCM, not an FMU. I have found two tunners (pcmforless is one) who can tune a boosted motor with a 95 LT1 computer up to 600-650 HP. I would not risk my expensive motor with a falable system again. Computers can fail aswell, but still much less of a risk than the alternatives in my opinion.
I got it, if it has moving parts it can break! Heck even if does not have moving parts it can break.
Added complexity=lower reliability, due to more things that MIGHT go wrong.
When we do what ever to increase the power output of a engine, at some point we are taking a calculated risk.
As far as which to run, i am intercooled and plan at some point to run Greg's system to be able to run leaner, pick up power and lower the combustion chamber temperatures.
I wish i knew enough about electronics to be able to design something that would turn on a big warning light if water was not being injected in the right amount and or if the mixture was out of limits.
Probably the best thing would be some kind of foolproof knock detection system that would lower boost, retard timing or close the throttle a bit.
Corvette Store
ait to air vs: gaseous intercooling
Listen to this man!!!
on this thread for awhile & since our cars are similar ('90) I thought I'd finally respond.
There are all kinds of trade offs in life - should you marry a very rich girl or one that can cook with no money? Or maybe if the sex is really good the hell with the rest? But then that decision may change with time and your age?
