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Not my car. Crazy to think this 69 coupe vin 194379S728006 bid to $100k at Mecum with fake paperwork and a bogus trim tag. Driver quality car and they didn't even take the time to put on the correct rocker panels. https://www.mecum.com/lots/1100271/1...aa_id=503775-0
I have personally contributed a LOT of copies of original paperwork to DKM's collection. Even items as strange as a bank financing document for a 67 L88 that specifies the L88 option.
I will say that his collection is vast and his knowledge of documentation and POPs is EXCEPTIONAL!
If I was buying a "documented" 69 today I would absolutely run all the documents by Jonathan for his opinion before spending my money.
Everyone needs to calm down a little.
Kevin C NCRS #6320
Ed,
I reached out to Mecum last month about the car and let them know it had a bogus tag and paperwork. They asked me to share evidence. So I sent them details pointing our why they are fake. They responded back to me that they are just listing the car and it's up to the seller to disclose if the tag and paperwork are original. As always when you go to an auction, buyer beware!
Amazing. These guys bidding 6 figures don’t realize you can’t get F41 with anything other than L71 or L88? They don’t check anything. Idiots.
So, no L-68s had the F41 suspension?
My ‘69 L46 has the F41 suspension. This has been confirmed by multiple Corvette experts who have inspected my car over the years, before I owned it. Separately, while my car was up on a lift, I asked an NCRS expert who owns and has restored 1969 Corvettes. He identified the F41, and showed me the front and rear sway bars and the appropriate number of leaf springs (which I also counted myself, as I’m not an idiot). It appears to have been special-ordered that way, along with the K66 transistor ignition. Not everything about 1969 Corvettes was documented the way it is today, and there were many special orders.
If there’s a lucrative black market in bootleg F41 suspensions, I’m not aware of it. If you asked 100 prospective buyers of 1969 Corvettes what the single most important feature is in a car, that would make or break a deal, how many would name the F41 suspension over, say, the type of engine, whether the car has its original engine, or the type of transmission? I don’t think it would be one. I’d even go out on the proverbial limb and say that, all things being equal, more prospective buyers today of a 1969 Corvette would place more value on a tilt-telescopic steering wheel than an F41 suspension (especially as some believe the F41 makes a harsher ride).
The subject car’s trim tag says this is a Tuxedo Black car with black leather interior. Based on posts I’ve read here, supposedly this is a rare and desirable combination. That, together with a numbers matching tri-power L-68, is appealing to some segments of the market.
Is this or is this not a numbers matching L-68 car? Did it leave the factory Tuxedo Black with black leather, with this L-68 engine and transmission? Is the POP fake?
My ‘69 L46 has the F41 suspension. This has been confirmed by multiple Corvette experts who have inspected my car over the years, before I owned it. Separately, while my car was up on a lift, I asked an NCRS expert who owns and has restored 1969 Corvettes. He identified the F41, and showed me the front and rear sway bars and the appropriate number of leaf springs (which I also counted myself, as I’m not an idiot). It appears to have been special-ordered that way, along with the K66 transistor ignition. Not everything about 1969 Corvettes was documented the way it is today, and there were many special orders.
If there’s a lucrative black market in bootleg F41 suspensions, I’m not aware of it. If you asked 100 prospective buyers of 1969 Corvettes what the single most important feature is in a car, that would make or break a deal, how many would name the F41 suspension over, say, the type of engine, whether the car has its original engine, or the type of transmission? I don’t think it would be one. I’d even go out on the proverbial limb and say that, all things being equal, more prospective buyers today of a 1969 Corvette would place more value on a tilt-telescopic steering wheel than an F41 suspension (especially as some believe the F41 makes a harsher ride).
The subject car’s trim tag says this is a Tuxedo Black car with black leather interior. Based on posts I’ve read here, supposedly this is a rare and desirable combination. That, together with a numbers matching tri-power L-68, is appealing to some segments of the market. This isn’t a $40k car.
I am not saying it is a $40k car, but it sure isn't a $100k car with a fake trim tag with bogus paperwork. This car is being advertised as an original Tuxedo Black car and it isn't. In regards to the F41 suspension, you could only get this suspension with the L71, L89, L88 and ZL1. I do not have one example in my files of an L46, L36 or L68 ordered with F41 suspension and legitimate factory paperwork to back it up.
My ‘69 L46 has the F41 suspension. This has been confirmed by multiple Corvette experts who have inspected my car over the years, before I owned it. Separately, while my car was up on a lift, I asked an NCRS expert who owns and has restored 1969 Corvettes. He identified the F41, and showed me the front and rear sway bars and the appropriate number of leaf springs (which I also counted myself, as I’m not an idiot). It appears to have been special-ordered that way, along with the K66 transistor ignition. Not everything about 1969 Corvettes was documented the way it is today, and there were many special orders.
If there’s a lucrative black market in bootleg F41 suspensions, I’m not aware of it. If you asked 100 prospective buyers of 1969 Corvettes what the single most important feature is in a car, that would make or break a deal, how many would name the F41 suspension over, say, the type of engine, whether the car has its original engine, or the type of transmission? I don’t think it would be one. I’d even go out on the proverbial limb and say that, all things being equal, more prospective buyers today of a 1969 Corvette would place more value on a tilt-telescopic steering wheel than an F41 suspension (especially as some believe the F41 makes a harsher ride).
The subject car’s trim tag says this is a Tuxedo Black car with black leather interior. Based on posts I’ve read here, supposedly this is a rare and desirable combination. That, together with a numbers matching tri-power L-68, is appealing to some segments of the market.
Is this or is this not a numbers matching L-68 car? Did it leave the factory Tuxedo Black with black leather, with this L-68 engine and transmission? Is the POP fake?
No car other than L71 or L88 variant could get F41 as a factory option.
I’ll go out on a proverbial limb. Your car did not come from the factory with F41 even if it’s on there now. Big difference. There was no special order for it. Just because you can count 7 leafs in your springs doesn’t mean that leaf spring was what came with your car when it left the assembly line. The shock mounts are also different and all those parts can be added. You bought your car a few years ago, correct? You have no idea what was changed or what it came with for the first 50 years before you owned it. It’s not a matter of it being a valuable option. You are missing the point. When the suspension needed repair it’s what was available as the F41 parts were used for service replacement so many cars have it but it wasn’t ordered that way. That fact that it’s on the tank sheet of the Mecum car is just another example of how we can tell the tank sheet is a FAKE! Who are these so called NCRS experts who have examined your car? Ask any single one of them to come on here and confirm it. I am a NCRS member. I would love to debate it with him. Any “expert” or Judge would know this. If I’m wrong he or “they” can set me straight….
Show me some real documentation showing your car came from the factory with F41. When a owner makes extraordinary claims you need extraordinary proof. Anyone can say there car came with something and say some “expert” said so. Nothing new there. Show me, don’t tell me. Not being disrespectful, but that’s the standard question I have been asking for the 40 plus years I’ve been dealing with this when someone has “something nobody has seen yet”. Nobody has ever risen to the occasion. I hear the same claims about M22 transmissions coming from the factory on 69’s other than on L88’s. Always ends the same way, no proof.
The proof I offer that they never came with it is this.
1. It was never offered and clearly states that you CAN NOT get it on the order sheets for the 1969 Corvette for anything other than L71 or L-88.
2. I have never seen a 1968/1969 documented car other than a L71 for which it was an option or L-88, which it was standard.
3. They NCRS Judges Guide agrees with the above statements.
Now to this black car. A clear FAKE black coded trim tag. So you’re asking if it came from the factory that way? Then where is the REAL TAG? Black cars ARE desirable, that’s why they put fake 900 tags on them. And add fake paperwork. When I see that I don’t really care about the POP at that point. The term “number matching” is meaningless. Is this a L68 with a born with drivetrain? Maybe, I don’t care because everything else is fabricated.
Whoever bought the car is going to cry the blues when he tries to sell it. Or maybe he will get lucky and burn someone else.
Last edited by ed427vette; 01-07-2024 at 12:48 AM.
If you look at the trim tag in the backround the paint is chipping off in the corners looks like originally monaco orange if its in fact a 69 birdcage. Almost looks like 68 corvette bronze.
A lot of things about this trim tag make it a repop. To date no one has been able to make a 100% correct factory trim tag. When you throw in all the bogus paperwork, I wouldn't touch this car with a 10 foot pole
Here is my response message to Mecum after they asked for proof that the car had a fake trim tag and paperwork. I sent them proof and then they responded below. I get it, they are just an auction house and it is up to the seller to represent the car honestly, which obviously didn't happen. The sad thing is the next owner of the car will be stuck holding the bag.
Example I sent of three trim tags from tuxedo black cars and one from a car built on the same day:
Real trim tag
Fake trim tag on Mecum auction car
Mecum response:
We really appreciate your feedback here on this vehicle and again bringing it to our attention. We are going to be reaching out to the seller to recommend we change some verbiage in their description of the vehicle. At the end of the day, it is their vehicle and they are able to represent it how they want, to a point of course.
I have spoken with the seller and they are claiming the vehicle to be a complete matching numbers drivetrain (we still need to update that online) and has been verified by a Corvette expert on his end shortly after purchasing the vehicle. Being we are not authenticators, we are just the auction house, we are going to still advertise the vehicle with the seller provided information.
But we again are very thankful for you reaching out to us and bringing this to our attention!
My response
That is up to you. The car has a fake trim tag and paperwork, that I can 100% promise you. Whether Mecum or the Seller decides to change the description or be honest with the next buyer, that is not my decision. I am more than happy to talk with the seller or their Corvette expert.
Unfortunately for the Corvette hobby cars like this exist because the lack of information from the vin. That is why I started building a database to track Corvettes and compare engine stampings, trim tags and factory paperwork. Unfortunately the next buyer will buy they car as a real 900 Tuxedo Black car and take it to get judged and the car won't pass the initial inspection and be banned from judging. That is when the fireworks begin. I have seen this story unfold way to many times.
I see your point! With so much known about these cars and access to info it is truly astounding. But then again if they just really like the car then originality may not be important. Either way, very interesting.
And the auction company can argue that it is numbers match, as while many assume that numbers match means "original", there are counter arguments.
Any car can "be corrected" to be numbers match, and in many cases tyhat is tyhe goal of a restoration. Bogus paperwork is another issue, as are replacement trim tags.
A little cynical here, but what an incredible racket the auction houses have. Big seller's commission, big buyer's premium, no responsibility for the item sold. And gift shops where people can buy their apparel to advertise for them.
I am not saying it is a $40k car, but it sure isn't a $100k car with a fake trim tag and all bogus paperwork. This car is being advertised as an original Tuxedo Black car and it isn't. In regards to the F41 suspension, you could only get this suspension with the L71, L89, L88 and ZL1. I do not have one example in my files of an L46, L36 or L68 ordered with F41 suspension and legitimate factory paperwork to back it up.
“All bogus paperwork” is a pretty strong claim…
Is the original sale document (Corvette Owner Card) with attached POP fake?
Is there a general consensus that customers could, back in the day, special order cars with certain features? A few months ago, I submitted a special order to my MBZ dealer, for a build with the features I want. This process didn’t exist in 1968-1969? Chevy didn’t consider special orders from preferred customers? You get what you get?
Is there proof, to a 100% degree of certainty, that not a single L-68 left the St, Louis factory with an F-41 suspension? I note that the original owner listed a St. Louis address. Have you ruled out any connection to Chevy?
I also understand there wasn’t great, consistent record keeping. Can you tell me the number of cars made in each color in 1969? How about interior color? No, no one can, because Chevy didn’t keep those records. The NCRS member who is in charge of obtaining ordered shipping data reports told me that there are periods of time during the 1969 build cycle where no records exist at all. This is corroborated by the production data discussion on page 2 of Rick Bizzoco’s 1969 Stingray guidebook. The author states that production values for August 1968, October 1969, and November 1969 are “estimated.”
It is a known fact that there are special order cars. It is a known fact that Chevrolet does not have 100% of the records kept on each and every one of the 38,762 Corvettes built between August 1968 and December 1969.
Can you assert to a degree of 100% certainty that no customer, no matter how prominent or wealthy, whether in the racing industry or not, could ask a dealer, or Chevy, to special order an F-41 suspension on an L-68? On an L-46? That any and all such requests would be denied? Can you assert with 100% certainty that each and every special order request made it into the “official” option tallies that Chevy has?
I’m just a bit more cautious about calling out as “fake” or “bogus” parts of a 50+ year old car I haven’t seen, and where production records are known to be inconsistent. Again, the issue is an F41 suspension option on a numbers matching L-68. Or, are you saying that, too, is fake?
This isn’t the proverbial “barn find” L-88 or a previously unknown ZL-1. Referring to Bizzoco’s discussion on the F41 suspension option, page 83, the book does not say that it was placed only on the L-71, L-88/89 etc. He doesn’t mention which cars it went on at all. The buyer of the black car is chastised for being an “idiot” for not looking it up. I am literally looking it up, and not finding the facts to support the assertion, that no L-68 had the F-41. Bizzoco also doesn’t assert that the F41 was installed on ZERO 350s, either…
I also place more credence in the conclusions of experts who have actually inspected (and owned) my car than the opinions of people on the internet who haven’t. Just a quirk.
Look, I have nothing to do with that car, and maybe you are right. I, personally, wouldn’t pay $100k for it. There are literally millions of people who wouldn’t buy my car, or your car, at any price. But, labeling “All” paperwork as “bogus,” and calling the buyer an “idiot” when the Stingray Guidebook doesn’t even say what is being asserted here as gospel seems, to me, to be extreme.
If the POP is fake ( which we know it is) everything else has to be assumed to be fake.
That’s just the way it works in my mind.
I saw a Protecto plate embosser machine from the 60’s for sale on EBay and it came with 100’s of the aluminum plates along with everything you’d need to forge a POP.
As far as the F-41 suspension goes, awhile ago I had a lengthy conversation with Mike at America’s Finest Corvettes. He reproduces what is considered the best/ most authentic F41 reproduction parts.
He told me that He had heard of the possibility that the F 41 could have came on the 400 HP big blocks but he had never seen a car with it.
He said it was possible but he’d never seen it.
A little cynical here, but what an incredible racket the auction houses have. Big seller's commission, big buyer's premium, no responsibility for the item sold. And gift shops where people can buy their apparel to advertise for them.
Not quite true they do have some responsibility for the item sold as they have been sued in the past and usually will settle out of court or offer to buy the car back just to protect their reputation. Famously Craig Jackson bought back a million dollar Bugatti due to some issue. He ended up driving the car home from Vegas and it broke down just outside of Kingman AZ and had to be towed back to Scottsdale.
01-06-2024, 05:03 PM
1969 Corvette Tuxedo Black coupe at Mecum
