ORANGEBROTHERS

My 71 BB is on its way to Australia as well should be there early next year. Looks like the guys down under know the value of these cars. Not to mention, have great taste!

TheSaint

Your Camaro on the way to Australia, the Corvette on the way to Austria

vetti73

Hello,

I would like to share my experiences with this Corvette deal, because I think, that it wasn’t a fair deal.

The Corvette arrived in Austria in May. I’ve told Jacob immediately, that the windshield frame is very rusty on the driver side (first two pictures in the album, link below) and that I have to check this issue with the thinner. It took some time, to go to the thinner to check this and see the car from below.

Right now, the Corvette has three main issues I have to fix: the engine runs hot, the windshield frame and the frame has some massive rust.

We didn’t figure out till now, where the hot running engine exactly comes from but in the ad it was mentioned, that the engine doesn’t run hot and that the gauge doesn’t work. Fact is that the gauge works fine.

To the rust:
I don’t need to be an expert to recognise these rusty parts at the car. It seems that these heavy faults have been hidden. Because of the statement, “I believe the birdcage, underside and frame, etc... are all good with no rust, car was in AZ previous to my buddy's purchase 4-5 years ago. I will shoot pics of these and post them as well.” and this wasn’t corrected after taking the pictures from the underside of the Vette, I’ve got the impression, that the car has no rust. Of course, I didn’t ask about rust again.

Before purchase, Livin offered, to check the car at Corvette Alley in Anacortes for USD 200,-. I decided not to do that, because it’s always risky to buy a car through the Internet, not to see it by myself or to check the car from a person of my trust. Because Jacob is a senior member of the forum, a long time corvette owner and sold several Corvettes in the last years, I’ve trusted him. Unfortunately I became disappointed.

Because of the price of the car, it was clear not to get a perfect car. There are a lot of other smaller things to fix, not worth to mention.

Jacob tells me, I got what I paid for and that it’s impossible to uncover every little blemish. I need to take this up with his friend from now on, not him anymore. His friend has copies from our last emails about these issues but didn’t respond anytime, because I’ve asked for an appropriate refund.

In my mind, these are heavy faults and not little blemish. They should be mentioned, to avoid such troubles and to make a fair deal.

What do you think? Am I wrong? Is my request for an appropriate refund OK or not? If you share my opinion, this discussion will help to get some money back - maybe.

Mistakes happen, consciously or unconsciously, for me it’s important, how we deal with them.

Thank’s for your response,

very best,
Andreas

https://picasaweb.google.com/vetti73...eat=directlink

DJordan442

I agree that any reputable dealer or seller should have revealed at least some of that rust/rot, at least the parts that are clearly visible like the hole in the radiator support and the scale around the VIN plate. You could argue that the windshield frame was covered, but any honest person would have revealed the visible issues. Honesty is hard to come by these days, that's why you should never buy a car without seeing it personally or getting a 3rd party professional inspection. Not sure what recourse you have (if any). If you purchased it at a business and they don't provide any satisfaction, I would at least make a claim to the U.S. Better Business Bureau. The negative claim will then be on their record so that future buyers can see. good luck

livin

Dear Andi (Vetti73) and Fellow Forum Members that happen to have stumbled upon this thread...

I am going to repeat to you, as I have said several times to the buyer.

First of all, Andi I am truly sorry for all of your inconveniences... I wish you would take a second to put yourself in my shoes... (the middle man's shoes) as I don't have the money you paid my friend, for his Corvette.... and I am not the one you should be asking for a refund, ....and my buddy is NOT a Corvette Forum member, so taking this to the forum is really about you and I... as he will NEVER log onto this forum, nor does he care what anyone on this forum has to say...

I was happy to take any pictures you personally asked for. If Andi (vetti73) would have asked for a simple picture of the vin tag, then we both would have known to look for a rusty windshield frame, as the rust would have been obvious in the picture. I sold a 69 corvette I owned to a nice man in Denmark once, he is on this forum. He had me remove interior pieces and shoot pictures of the birdcage... no problems... Had Andi asked for any one particular picture, he would have had it.

Had I known beforehand that this car had any major rust issues, I personally would have backed out of trying o sell this Corvette for my friend. I did believe the Car to be free of rust!

I do SERIOUSLY take offense that Andi thinks that I have purposefully deceived him, as he continues to point his finger at me!

I am a big believer in Karma, what goes around comes around. In no way did I, or was I trying to pull the wool over someones eyes. I am very sorry that he didn't get the quality of a Corvette we both thought he was getting. I would never have purposefully jeopardized my 10 years on this forum over the sale of a Corvette. THIS WAS NOT MY CORVETTE, I just acted as the middle man, and I had very little to gain through this transaction!!! It was not worth the trouble and hassle that this transaction has created. I don't think I could ever act as the "middle man" for anyone again. It's just not worth the hassle.

Hopefully I won't have to bore you guys with details about how much of a pain in the but this entire experience has been. However believe me... it has not been completely smooth sailing.

The most important points would be the following:

I begged the buyer to let me take it to my friend at Corvette Alley for a thorough inspection of the car for $200. Corvette Alley is one of the places that Corvette Fever used to list as a reputable place to take your Corvette. If the buyer backed out of the sale after the inspection, he would have only been out $200 The buyer chose to not have the car inspected.

I have had 18 Corvettes in the last 22 years... I have never had a Corvette with serious rust. I like to monkey around with Corvettes, but I am not a professional mechanic... if I was, my 57 Corvette that I have been restoring for 5 + years on this forum would be finished by now. As I am a chef by trade, when it comes to Corvettes, I leave the important decisions/inspections/work to the pro's, which is the main reason I asked him to have the Corvette inspected.

The single most important fact that I have mentioned to Andi several times, though I have not yet heard him respond to, (and would prove this entire thread to be a moot issue is that....)

ANDI signed a buyers/sellers contract stating that the Corvette was sold as is/where is with no warranty of any sort implied.

Andi, I sincerely hope that you can make peace with your transaction. I told you everything you needed to know to make and educated purchase, and gave you every opportunity to back out. I even told you that the Corvette had been wrecked across the nose, and repaired with a front nose spliced on over the arcs of the fenders. I didn't purposely hide a thing about this Corvette.

God Bless

DJordan442

Just goes to show that there is always 2 sides to a story. If you recommended that he get the car inspected and he rejected that advice, then its all on the buyer. If I were you, I would be pissed at the seller for not revealing the rust issues to you and putting you out there in the middle. Hopefully he is not a good friend.

z10kl

Lots of requests for undercarrage pics which the OP mostly ignored. That car might have been in AZ, but it spent a lot of time in the north. Purchaser might not have had it checked out as much as he should but OP bears some responsibility for a deal gone bad.

livin

I did NOT ignore requests for pictures of the undercarriage. If I remember correctly I was out of town, when these requests came in, and as soon as I got home, I posted them. Below are the pictures that WERE INDEED posted along with this thread.

After the Corvette sold, I deleted a lot of the pictures from photobucket, so they have been omitted from this thread.

From the pictures, and as the person taking the pictures, nothing looked bad to me, or to anyone else on the forum who happened to look at the pics.

Here are the pictures that were posted.

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The undercarriage looked fine to me. No holes in the usual places like the back of the frame horns in front of each rear wheel.

The car looks good from these pictures, and it did in real life too.

I totally disclosed that the car had been in an accident, and how it was improperly repaired.... If there is any rust in the front near the radiator support, it was probably from this improper repair, and NO I didn't know about it.

All of this could have been someone else's problem (like another buyer, and another seller's problem) .....if Andi had just gone along with the buyer's inspection that I requested he have done!

Had I heard anything negative about the car from Corvette Alley, I would have chosen not to take part in this sale.

livin.... live and learn!!!!

vettebuyer6369

Yet ANOTHER thread where someone buys a car sight unseen from long-distance, and is disappointed when he gets it, and expects a "refund."

Another thread making nasty accusations about a seller, when the buyer:

1. did not pay for an appropriate inspection
2. did not ask the proper questions
3. did not arrange for a trusted independant party to inspect to his requirements.
4. did not request appropriate pictures

Another thread where the buyer is unhappy, and directly takes his one-sided complaints to an open forum, trashing the seller's name and his friend.

Any wonder why some people won't sell to forum members?

Yep, its hard buying from another country, but when YOU choose to do that, its on YOU to mitigate the risk. You did not.

Even though it is totally on the seller to do his due dilligence, I wouldn't sell a car to someone on here sight unseen. It usually ends up with a combination of a total newbie buyer who is shocked the car has flaws, who didnt know how to buy, and wants money back.

It always ends where they don't settle it with the seller or take any personal responsibility. It always ends with an immediate attack on the seller in public, and the crowd lights their torches accordingly.

These threads come up too often.

BlackbirdZ07

Sorry, I don't think you totally skate on this one. You represented the car for TWO MONTHS before it finally sold. This was from your post on this thread on 10/28/2010:

"I believe the birdcage, underside and frame, etc... are all good with no rust, car was in AZ previous to my buddy's purchase 4-5 years ago. I will shoot pics of these and post them as well."

Did you even check the car out before you posted that? If you did, you either don't know what you're looking at (as the windshield frame rust is pretty obvious and the frame rust was easily visible) or you didn't disclose it. If you didn't check it out, you posted something that you had no personal knowledge of.

The pictures mean nothing. It's very easy to select the lighting and angle to hide flaws in pictures, not that that's what you purposefully did.

As an aside, anyone who's been in this hobby for any length of time knows Chevs-N-Vettes in Arizona had a horrible reputation. That alone should have been a red flag to thoroughly check out the car you were representing.

I guess the buyer learned the first lesson of buying a used car the hard way... have it inspected and don't take anyone's word on anything. I hope you learned something too... if you're going to advertise cars for other people then know what you're advertising. Better yet, let people list their own cars according to forum rules... THIS is why it's against forum rules to list cars for someone else.

The_Dude

I've been on the forum long enough to give livin the benefit of the doubt, but I do tend to agree with the post above. If you're going to represent a car, you had better make sure you know what you're representing. The buyer should have coughed up the inspection fee, just for his piece of mind. It was nothing compared to what he paid to get it shipped to Europe. This is a real bummer for both livin and the buyer.

3rd_Vette

Personally, I'm wondering why this is even being brought up 9 months LATER! If there was an actual issue, why did the buyer wait so long to bring up these issues.. Here is my offer, if he doesn't want it after owning it this long, ship it back and Ill buy it (at a discounted price).. I feel the buyer messed up any recourse by refusing the $200 inspection. That being said, I feel it is in poor taste to bring anything up 9 months later.. Especially for trying to trash the middle man on the sale.. I sold my red 80 4 or 5 years ago and I totally miss it, but I never heard one complaint from the buyer, who flew from Texas to Oregon to inspect the car before any money changed hands.. My suggestion is, fix whatever you are not happy with and enjoy that beautiful car that is now 100% yours.. Had there actually been an issue, I would have discussed it back in January for a possible adjustment in compromise.. Waiting this long is unacceptable as I see it.. I bought a 79 L-48 4-speed last year and have only driven it 200 miles. I have found countless issues that were not disclosed, yet I'm fixing each one to bring this car back to it's glory with no crying to the seller.. Its a "shame on me" for not checking 100% of the car, but I know that a used car is a used car. You buy it with NO warranty and once you take possession, you own it.. Just my opinion!

DeadStang

I agree.

6inarow

Caveat Emptor - that Latin guy still rules

livin

Dennis, Steve, Dudette, 3rd Vette, Dan, and to all the others that have offered their support, THANKS!!!! Seriously, it means a lot to have my
"Corvette FORUM Family's Support" I have been a forum member over 25% of my life!

Blackbird Z07, I had NOTHING TO GAIN misrepresenting a Corvette to anyone. NOTHING! I have been a member of this forum long enough to know that people will put in their two cents and create a book of threads on the slightest issue, so again I would not want to open that can of worms misrepresenting a car.

I honestly didn't think the car looked bad, and had it been a 69, I would have bought the thing myself for the mere 20 grand the seller took for this car he had 36 grand invested in.

I can't say it enough, I didn't think the car was rusted, and I didn't try and misrepresent a Corvette.

That being said, You are absolutely correct in the fact that I should have done more homework before putting my name behind someone else's Corvette. I won't be making this same mistake again, ever!

I wish I would have read the forum rules regarding selling a car for someone else... had I, I wouldn't be in this pickle!

I also guess I let the fact that my buddy is an ASE certified mechanic, that own his own repair shop.. cloud my judgement.... He told me the car was solid, I did a quick look underneath and I had no reason to believe otherwise. I drove the Corvette, it ran just fine. Any issues I believed the Corvette to have, I listed or disclosed with the buyer.

Yes, this is the buyer's first Corvette, This also happens to be the 17th Corvette I have sold in the last 20 years! I have NEVER had someone treat me so improperly, with such lack of trust and respect!

NEVER, NEVER AGAIN!!!

If you ever see a corvette for sale by livin, it will be my own!!!

I WILL MAKE YOU COME LOOK AT, OR HAVE IT INSPECTED FIRST!!!!

NOW, I have my first child coming in 10 weeks (I think he is due on my 67's Birthday!!!) I think it's time to quit trying to defend myself and focus my energy on my very pregnant wife...

I will be lurking, and hoping for more support from my Corvette Bro's and Sista's!!!

Happy September!!!

vetti73

Thank´s to all of you for reading this thread and for your comments.

I have to make one clarification, what have been said above. It wasn’t recommended to inspect the car, I’ve asked for it:

---

Personal Note, 12-08-2010, 10:59 PM

me: And another condition is to check the car by an agent.

Jacob: Yes, this is fine.. but this will cost you. Dave Overton at Corvette Alley (360) 299-9303 said it would be around $150, pending how far you want him to go... and I would charge you another $150 to bring the corvette to him and back, plus the ferry boat charges. It's a whole day to get off island, get the inspection and then get back. Plus I would have close to $50 in ferry boat charges. So $350 would buy you a buyers inspection. If you don't want the Corvette... you would still be out $350

---

My fault was that I acquired the car in good faith. Jacob’s support as a middle man was perfect but ended, as I reported from the mentioned problems. This makes the bad taste of this deal. He writes about lack of trust: I’ve really trusted him and that the information he gave was verified by him. I don’t cry about things, I didn’t ask for.

I agree with Jacob, that it’s time to use the energy for something else.

Very best,
Andreas

Mr. Wonderful

This thread should never have come to this.

Mods should have locked it long before it sold.

I know they look for this (selling someone else's car) in the sale threads because I tried selling a Vette for a friend and the thread was locked by a mod.

Feel sorry for you Andi, but live and learn.
We all make stupid mistakes in our lives.
We're only smarter if we learn from them.

livin

Not sure I understand the point of your "clarification"

as on 11-24-10 I published the following on this thread:

“Corvette Alley (360-299-9303) is the closest corvette shop, but we live on an island and it will cost to bring him in or ship the car out to him for inspection. “

This was written before you ever showed interest in the Corvette. Why would you need to clarify that it was you who wanted the inspection, when it was clear in the threads before you showed up that I was willing to take the Car in for a professional inspection?

Andi, what did you hope to gain from this public beating, other than trying to publicly humiliate me? I mean do you think that there is a Corvette Forum "Judge" who is actually going to reward you some money back???? The old owner of your Corvette doesn’t even know about any of this back and forth Corvette Forum bickering, and couldn't/wouldn't care less about it. Since he’s the one that has your money… wouldn’t it have made much more CENTS (sense) to take up your matters with him?

Of course even though you should take it up with him, instead of myself and the rest of the Corvette Forum World, there would be NO POINT because you agreed to purchase the Corvette "as is" without inspection!!!!

AGAIN!!!!! The sellers agreement between you and Randy reads that the Car was sold as is, where is, without any warranty’s implied. Doesn’t that mean anything to you?

Mr. Wondeful you are correct:

Live and Learn
We all make stupid mistakes in our lives.
We're only smarter if we learn from them.

I will never again put my name on the line to sell someone else's Corvette!
I am a chef by trade... not a Corvette Salesman... Corvettes are just my hobby and from now on I will only deal with my own.

I will also never sell or buy a Corvette again - sight unseen!

God Bless you all for dealing with this I am sorry for having to vent on this public forum... but it looks like that is what Andi wanted!

Now it's time to go help my preggo wife transform our office into our first nursery.... I am absolutely for continuing to respond to this thread.

69VetteFla

It is a rainy day down by me so I decided to get on the forum and do some reading and came across this thread. I read the entire thread from beginning to end and as most of you know had a bad experience recently buying my vette site unseen and w/o inspection. I don't know "Livin", but I have to say that it seems he was trying to be a friend and help him sell a car and that and ended up with a nightmare. He was very responsive to questions, offered out his personal phone # and seems to be just trying to do the right thing. His friend (the seller) either didn't know about these issues or is not such a great friend to "Livin" by having him help sell something misrepresented. Vetti73 - you made the same mistake I did which was not have the car inspected. The dealer I bought from told me that I didn't need to waste the money to have it inspected and like a fool I didn't. I really don't think that Livin had bad intentions here as he has been on this forum for so long and values his reputation and relationships. I have only been here a few months and I can say that I have already grown very attached to this place and the faceless friends that I have made. My first couple of weeks with my car I was so pissed off fighting with the dealer who was offering me "nothing". I suggest you realize you paid more than you should have by no fault of "Livin", put in some bucks to get it right and love the hell out of her.

vetti73

Jacob - clarification - right now, this was my mistake, I have overlooked that. I'm sorry.