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Old 10-28-2004, 02:02 AM
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doopsvette
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Default oils aint oils

a friend recommended redline oil to replace my oils with, said it was pricy but i would be impresed
man what a great oil, i will pay extra just to run this stuff, nothing but great stuff
Old 10-28-2004, 02:03 AM
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bbeck
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so, how are you impressed?
Old 10-28-2004, 02:34 AM
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comp
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Originally Posted by bbeck
so, how are you impressed?
what do you like???
Old 10-28-2004, 04:03 AM
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Twin_Turbo
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IMO the whole redline, amsoil, royal purple hype is just that, a hype. I don't see why it is any better than german castrol and those stupid test with that friction wheel in an oil bath, anyone can pump that oil full of high pressure components and not have the wheel grind. Where are the real tests? I'd believe the silkolene claims before those of the above mentioned ones.
Old 10-28-2004, 05:26 AM
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Redline Smedline .

I don't use it and actually do not know anyone who does .There are better ways to go these days IMO .

Most people recommending oils don't really know the exacts of it all anyway .

Seriously doopsvette , what engines do you have and why does this oil work for you ? It won't go long n far because of the TBN drop in most cases . For 4.70 - 5.00 a quart I think you can do better with Synergyn Synthetic .



TwinTurbo ,

That GC does not have enough barrier protection for me and that oil does not like fuel in it . It will protect fairly well but my opinion is it has a weak dispersant pack and the elements normally shown through analysis are not in suspension when the oil is caught for the sample . My thoughts are they are laying on the engine decks , oil pans ect trapped in a film layer .

I certainly would use some Lubegard Flush once a year if using that oil . Thats some goodly stuff there for 7 bucks a bottle or 90 bucks for a 10 pint case . It's some kind of ester and not a solvent and available world wide .

BTW , dyno shows Mobil 0w-40 will let one test motor make more horspower than the Castrol 0w-30 and the 0w-40 Mobil has a DD pack that won't quit . GM LL-025-A is a two year spec , Mobil 0w-40 is the only oil in N America that can meet that spec

I won't pick apart Amsoil 4-ball wear test . They are now using different RPM and Temps to compare their own line of oil to each other , just read close on their website . But I guarantee that when new engines come out with 4 rotating ***** in them , I try that stuff

Last edited by mountainmotor; 10-28-2004 at 05:34 AM.
Old 10-28-2004, 10:35 AM
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Default motor oils

There is a very good thread refering to motor oils on this site: http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?t=139014&page=1&pp=15

If you read this complete thread it may be of some help, it mostly is dealing with raceing flat tappet cam and lifter wear, I found it very interesting.
Old 10-28-2004, 10:58 AM
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I like mobile1 myself. I have read a few independant tests that show it lasts and lasts and lasts. These guys ran it for 14,000mi in an LS1 having oil analysis done at specified intervals and it did not break down all that much untill over 10k mi. They did replace the filter at 12,000mi.

I would be more worried about fuel contaminates than anything with it. I figure changing it at 3,000mi is absurd but you can if you want to.

Now as for true racing engines I dont know. I am not lucky enough to own one yet
Old 10-28-2004, 11:11 AM
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One of the reasons you use syn. oil is you don't have to change it every 3 thousand miles.If you do you might as well use dino oil.You are throwing your money away.
Old 10-28-2004, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by copter
One of the reasons you use syn. oil is you don't have to change it every 3 thousand miles.If you do you might as well use dino oil.You are throwing your money away.
That doesn't mean that the filter shouldn't be changed. I have to add a quart every few months to my daily driver and only drive about 4k a year. The oil has been changed through the slow leak to the ground (yay 302s with bad pan and rear main seals), but I'm sure there is gunk in the filter.
Old 10-28-2004, 12:59 PM
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While I don't have and haven't seen real head to head data supporting the long term use of synthetic oils, I have experimented over the years with various cars.

I agree with one of the above posts that the change interval is definately reduced. Having said that, I've never significantly reduced the change interval so can't comment on the need to change filters between oil changes. I base the change interval on mileage, perceived performance and the "condition" (visual viscosity, color and odour) of the oil as it drains.

What I've found it that in higher performance and the higher reving engines, particularly turbos, there appears to be noticable and measurable differences. In larger engines like ours that aren't pumped up to very high hp, I haven't noticed any difference. That said, I use the synethetics there as well since the costs are not enough to prevent me from hoping that I get a long term benefit.

Is there a friction reduction or do synthetics simply pick up less fuel and carbon? I don't know, but I haven't seen much down side asside from the cost, and the cost isn't that much in the bigger scheme of things. Also, I've never noted the notorious gasket leakes that In hear so much about.

Last edited by CA-Legal-Vette; 10-28-2004 at 01:02 PM.
Old 10-28-2004, 01:20 PM
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Synthetics are able to suspend more contaminants, have greater lubricity due to less viscosity modifiers and more consistent molecule size, and coke at much higher temperatures. I have a report somewhere from a friend who did some research on this. I'll see if I can dig it up...

First, this will be quite long and detailed and it will be all 'greek' if you do not have the following printed out and in front of you.

Go to www.mobil1.com. Click on Mobil 1 products, Then click on w/ Super Syn. At the bottom of the page is a Product
Data Sheet. PRINT THIS OUT OR ALL OF WHAT FOLLOWS WILL BE MEANINGLESS.

Read the following with the data sheet in front of you, it will make things a lot easier. I am going to define the Service
Classifications and some terms and test that you may not be familiar with; be patient, my previous professional field was strictly cardiac.

API Service classification (American Petroleum Institute) SL/CF

SL is the sequence test for cars made from 200. It has four engine test requirements they are Sequence(s) IIIF,IVA,VG,VIII
IIIF - Oil thickening, or viscosity increase @ 40C/104F. The requirement is a maximum of 275%
Oil Consumption Interpretability: measured by evaporative loss at 250C/482F for 1 hour. The requirement is a NOACK of 15% or less for 5.2L and 15% or more for 6.5L.

DEPOSITS - high temp. Hot stuck rings: requirement - none. Avg. piston skirt varnish: requirement 9.0 min.
weighted piston deposits: requirements 4.0 min.

WEAR - high temp. Avg. Cam& lifter wear: requirement 20 micrometers maximum.

IVA - WEAR - low temp. Avg. cam weqr 120 micrometers maximum.

VG - Sludge - low temp: requirements engine sludge, requirement 7.8 min., Rocker arm cover sludge, requirement 8.0 min. Oil screen clogging, requirement 20% maximum, stuck compression rings, requirement, none.

Varnish - Avg. Varnish 3 pt.. requirement 8.9 min., piston skirt varnish+ 7.5 min. The following test are all required as
'Rate and Report'; Oil ring clogging, Cam follower pin wear, Cylinder bore wear, cold stuck rings, Oil screen debris.

VII - Bearing Corrosion. Bearing weight loss = 26.4 mg. maximum
Shear stability. Stripping at 100C/212F = must remain in original grade

Now it gets better to get the CF(conserving fuel) rating too we must add the following test. NOTE: All are CAFE requirements+bullsh- - !

VE - wear low temp. Avg. cam wear = 127 micrometers, maximum of 380 micrometers.NOTE: newer oils with less than 800 ppm of Phosphorus are exempt and have a much higher wear rate.

VIB - Fuel Economy REquirements for 0w-30 &5w-30, 1.7-2.0%. 10w-30 and others(VIB rated) .6-.9%.

You now have an oil that is rated API SL/CF. Technically the 15-50 is not fuel conserving but they pass all the other specs with a breeze.

ILSAC (International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee)
GF-3 The standards here are exactly the same as SL/CF without the fuel conserving standard, thus 15w-50 is denied.

ACEA (Association of European Automotive Manufacturers) NOTE - These standards are tough and meaningful; in short, they are a bitch to pass. They will be listed in orders of A's and B's. the 02 is the year of incorporation.

A1 " Oil for use in gas engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils with a high temperature / high shear rate with viscosities of 2.6 to 3.5 mPa.s. ( WE WILL DEFINE ALL UNITS OF MEASURE LATER) These oils may be unsuitable for use in some engines".

A3 "Stable, stay in grade oil intended for use in high performance gas engines and / or fir extended drau=in intervals, or for year round use of low viscosity oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the manufacturer."

A5 "Stable, stay in grade oil intended for use in extended drain intervals in high performance gas engines designed to be capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils with a HT.HS of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s. These oils may be unsuitable for some engines. Consult owner's manual or handbook if in doubt".

B1 " Oil intended for use in car or light diesel engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction, low viscosity oils etc . . "

B3 Same as A3 except for the light diesel rating too.

B4 "Stable, stay in grade oils intended for use in cars and vans having direct injection diesel engines but also suitable for applications under B3"

B5 Same as A5 except for the addition of diesel.

You should note that for hard driving, the main gas sequence test is A3.

The rest of the entire Characteristic's Chart makes sense if you know what the units of measure mean; so, here they come.

cP = CentiPoise. Measurement unit of kinematic viscosity of a fluidOne cp(centipoise) equals .o1poise, and is equivalent to one milliPascal-sec in units.
Poise = Measurement unit of a fluid's resistance to flow, i.e. viscosity defined by the shear stress in dynes per sq. cm. to move one layer of fluid along another over a total thickness of one cm. at a velocity of 1cm/sec. This is directly related to flow resistance.

cSt = Measurement unit of kinematic viscosity. One centiStoke equals .01 stokes and is equivalent to one mm2?sec in SI units.

Stoke = measure of kinematic viscosity defined by the ratio of the fluid's dynamic viscosity to it's density.

Kinematic Viscosity = Measur of a fluid's resistance to flow under gravity at a specific temperature.

Gee, confused? Good, now it gets a bit better.

There are four families of synthetics that are suitable for automotive use, two are NOT compatable with conventional oils.

PAO (poly alpha olefins or olefin oligomers) These are the most widely used synthetic lubricants in the US and Europe. They are made by combining two or more decene molecules into an oligomer, or short chained polymer. They are all hydrocarbon structures free of sulphur, phosphorus, wax and metals. They have good thermal stability, good wear protection but require addditives for oxidation and seal shrinkage. their viscosities are from 2 to 100cSt.

Mobil 1, Pennsoil Penzane and a few others are PAO's. The key to them is the additive package.

Diesters (dibasic acid esters) are synthesezed by reacting an acid and an alcohol. They have more varied structures than PAOs (molecules vary in size-PAO's are uniform). They have good thermal stability and are free of was, sulphur etc. They are excellent at disolving varnish. They require proper additives to prevent hydrolosis and should have special seals.

Polyesters (Polyol Esters) these are formed by a reaction of an acid with alcohol."polyol' refers to a molecule with two alcohol functions in it's structure. These too are free of sulphur, wax etc. Their viscosity indexes are from 120 to 160 (think about this).

Alkylated Aromatics are formed by the reaction of olefins with an aromatic material such as benzene. Their viscosity index is about 50 and they are rarely used in conventional automotive settings.

There, now that you know everything that I am not too lazy to research the chart becomes meaningful. Look at the Kinematic cSt @ 100C: 5w-30 is 9.7 and 15-50 is 17.4. At 212 degrees the 15w-50 has a 45% greater film strength(viscosity). What do you think protects the most. Now look at the 0w-40 that is required by Mercedes, Porsche and a few others. It too has a great viscosity; just try to find the stuff, it's difficult.

In closing, remember the cam wear and the other wear test?? They were run with about 100ppm of phosphorus and the 0w-40 and the 15w-50 are allowed to have 1600ppm of phosphorus. Phosphorus is the MAIN additive for valve train protection, anti-oxidant, seal swelling, anti- wear and anti-corrosion.

Now do you understand what oil to use? Now do you see that the CorporateAVerageFleetEconomy (CAFE ) rating is what the manufacturers really care about?

Finally from Gulf Oil Int.

GF-4 SPEC (upcomming)

Barely after accepting the final specs. of ILSAC GF-3 the automakers are now demanding a new specification GF-4. Implementation date, mid 2003 for the 2004 cars. The oils are to give greater economy, tighter emissions and a converter life of 150,000 miles. They also want the phosphorus further reduced to insure converter life. They are talking a 500 ppm level of phosphorus.

My advise guys and gals: get your Mobil 1 now and stock up. We are hoping to have 25 gallons by year's end.

Phewww, this was a PITA!
...
The test all have different durations from one hour to 96 hours.

The phosphorus comes as additives: zinc dithiophosphates & organic phosphates. It is vital to valve
train wear and total lubricity. AutoZone can order Mobil 1 in 0w-40 too. It is energy saving, the dealer
can't complain and has the 1400ppm of phosphorus for extra protection.
...
The GF-3 standard requires a phosphorus level of approximately
900ppm. I think 800 is the present minimum and 1000 is the max for an energy conserving oil.
...
Synthetics main benefits:

1. flows much better at cold temperature, thus reducing wear when you start you engine, which is when most of the wear occurs.

2. Full syns carbonize (ie. burn up) at a higher temperature than conventional oils, thus offering greater heat protection.

3. Given the same viscosity differential between cold and hot, a full syn oil uses less VC's (viscosity modifiers). The less VC's in the oil, the greater the oil's ability to suspend contaminant particles before sludge starts forming. Or dumbing it down full syn oil is more resistant to sludge formation.

4. There can be a slight reduction in friction, that is you could get slightly better gas mileage, but this would be on the ordrer of 1 or 2 tenths of a MPG.
...
Reher Morrison found out that it lubricates the same at 80 degrees or at 320 degrees.
Valvoline or andy other quality petroleum based oil turns to tar at these high temps and
flow like molasses at lower temperatures. . . and they don't protect or lubricate nearly as well.

Castrol Syntec lost in court to Mobil as they took a petroleum molecule ( dinosaur oil ) and
split it into two different molecules and called it a synthetic. The courts ruled that as it was
"created" in the process of an additional step it is a "synthetic". Iit is not in the way we have come to understand synthetics; it is merely a split molecule petroleum based oil.

I know that Amszoil, Pennzoil Pennzane and Mobil 1 are PAO synthetics.

Stay away from diesters and polyolesters - snake poison. Red Line and a few others fall
into this catagory.
...
The amount of phosphorus in 0-40 is "over 1000 ppm" and it has the
second highest viscosity to 15-50 at 212 degrees. 15-50 still has 1600
ppm of phosphorus; this is the key valve train protedtion component.

We use the following: 0-40 in the daily drivers and the 522" drag car. It is in the drag
car because it is run COLD and we shift as high as 7300rpm. We use 15-50
in a modifies (stroker) Vette and in a F250 Centurian that has a hyprmax
package.
...
The History of Mobile 1

Mobile 1 was first introduced about 40 years ago. Shortly after it appeared, Popular Science Magazine conducted a series of tests on it. The PS Testing Engineers installed Mobile 1 in vehicles in Alaska during the winter months when the temperature dropped down to -60F and lower.

At that temperature “normal motor oil turns to gel”. Unless an electric engine heater is attached, the engine will not start. Of course the battery had to be protected from the frigid temps or you would have needed a dogsled to get around.

After running the engine with Mobile 1, letting it “cool down” overnight (no engine heater was used (except to keep the battery warm), the oil was drained and flowed out in the same liquid state as it came out of the can.

PS ran another series of tests in laboratories at extreme high temperatures. I don’t remember the exact range but certainly up in the 100’s of degrees F.
Regular motor oil turned to a carbonized shellac. Mobile 1 remained in the same fluid state as it was at room temperature.

Mobile 1 is practically indestructible!

The Mobile Oil Corp. recommended 25,000 miles between oil changes! Now if one were to adhere to that distance there would be a problem. Since oil filters cannot last that long and should be changed at 5,000 miles or less that would mean at least 5 filter changes between every oil change. Since the old filter would still have some oil in it when discarded, "topping off" would be required.
...
Study Finding: Synthetic Oil is Changed too Frequently

One of the findings of a ‘Synthetic Oil Study’ using Mobil 1 5W30 SuperSyn is that people who use synthetic oil are changing it too frequently and increasing our engine wear as a result. The full article is available on the following web site.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/...s/oil-life.html -- > sorry link is dead now....

The major findings of the Mobil 1 study are:

Engine wear actually decreases as oil ages.

This has also been substantiated in testing conducted by Ford Motor Co. and ConocoPhillips, and reported in SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119. What this means is that compulsive oil changers are actually causing more engine wear than the people who let their engine's oil get some age on it.

Topping up the crankcase is a critical component of extended oil change intervals, and frequent filter changes are most likely the key to extreme-length intervals. The cumulative effect of even minor top-ups, let alone a filter change, substantially increases the longevity of the oil.

Based on the results we've got here, we'd recommend 8,000 miles between oil changes on an engine that uses no oil at all, perhaps 10,000 miles on an engine that uses some oil, and 15,000 miles or beyond with a filter change every 5,000 miles. This, of course, isn't any kind of guarantee, and you must evaluate for yourself what your engine requires. One thing we're pretty sure about though: 3,000-mile intervals are a huge waste of resources.

Another series of tests using Amsoil ASL 5W30 is underway at the present time.

The above findings would only apply to synthetic oil and to cars that cover an average number of kms per year rather than spending most of their time in a garage and only used occasionally.
Old 10-28-2004, 07:02 PM
  #12  
MYBAD79
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No doubt that modern synthetic oils are far superior but it depends on the engine if you really need it. In 1968 or 1970 they did not have these super oils and the engines ran good with whatever oil they used....
I would think on a 9000rpm reving Honda it would make sense to use synthetic oil but on a 350 SB ???
Change the oil often enough and your engine will be happy with regular (or synthetic blend) oil.
Old 10-28-2004, 07:16 PM
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Anyone hear of "Powerup"

Sells for about $50+ per liter and supposedly it reduces friction immensely!! Mostly used in Diesel engines that run for long periods as in boats.

It works, but I read an article somewhere a year or so ago that it actually eats away at the block as it has some type of Sodium component.

I should try and dig that up.....
Old 10-28-2004, 08:58 PM
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Aw sh*t. The oil thing again. I's been beat to death. Choose your poison. The only reason I respond is I didn't understand TT's response. Regarding Synthetics. Are your for them or agin them?

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