00 Trans Ram

OK, first of all, the name is from my primary race car - a 2000 Trans Am built for autocross (ESP class). Now, on to the meat of what I need.

I've got a '77 Vette that has a busted engine. I'ts been sitting in a field for 5 years, with no hood, windows down, etc. Basically, I want to strip it, put some good performance suspension and wheels/tires, a dependable, medium HP (400ish) engine, roll cage, minimal interior (race seats, no frills that don't make it go fast), and whatever else I come across in the process. Let me be clear, this isn't a "I'm planning on doing this, but will never do it" thread. Got the car already and just wondering what parts are best for a C3. I don't want to spend 7 million dollars on the thing, as this is my first foray into road racing. If I crash, I don't want to be selling the house. That said, I do want quality parts. Specifically, I need the following parts (that I know of):

Wheels - lightweight (not a big deal, as this costs lotsa $$$), strong, around $200 per wheel, wide, maybe big diameter for larger brakes if money allows
Tires - got these covered with Victoracers or the new V710's
Springs - for the front, I've seen both 500lb Gymkhana coils and a transverse composite leaf (ala, C4), what's best? Is 500lbs enough up front? For the rear, what rate (I assume composite is best here)? Possible or reccommended to do coilovers on all four corners?
Shocks - I run Koni S/A's on my car, so I know and like these. Are off the shelf Bilsteins better/worse? Is there some kind of preferred "custom" set-up? Is the adjustability of Koni's wasted if it's only for road race?
Swaybars - What sizes match best for road race? Larger usually = better, but not always (my rear is small in the T/A).
Control arms - front, no ideas what to do. Does stock work or replace? With what? Rear, no idea, either.
Rearend - how strong is the rear? no drag racing, just constant up and down revs.
Roll cage - who makes good cages for these cars? Have welding and cutting equipment and will install myself.
Engine - want something that is $2000-$3000 ish, up near 400hp, reliable, 350-383ci. Not averse to using used engine (not my own - it's D-E-A-D), but with new internals. Prefer to make power in higher revs. This is not the most important part of the build, as of now, because I need experience and safety first.
Carbuerator - need something to match the engine. Has to perform well under high lateral G's (over 1G in turns - I currently pull 1.05G's in mt T/A)
Whatever else you think - What other parts or areas have I overlooked.

I know a bit about handling and racing, but little about specific C3 preparation and details. Any suggestions are very much appreciated!!

45ACP

Some reading material that may be of interest to you....

Go here - http://www.corvettefaq.com/listing.asp?group=6

Click on the link entitled "Chevy Power Book on Corvette - In PDF format".

hawgn68

Trans Ram,
I built a '73 for vintage road racing, constrained by vintage rules, so my input is couched on those restrictions. The C-3 vette is well set up for road racing and you don't need to go exotic to have a competitive car. Poly bushings, a big front sway bar (1 1/8"), 550lb springs in front, a 5 leaf steel or fiberglass 340lb spring in back, a spreader bar, adjustable strut roads for the suspension and you're in there. As for the motor, I can't run strokers or roller cams, but built a bullet-proof 6k RPM 355 with all forged rotaing assembly, 141 casting (camel hump) heads, performer RPM with Holley 4779 on top and 1 3/4" headers using a comp cam .520/.540 lift solid cam it's putting our 430 hp. I use a Muncie M-21 with Hays 11" clutch set up with a 3.73 rear gear for the track we run (Texas World Speedway 2.9 mile, 19 turn course.) O-ring calipers with Performance friction pads and stock rotors do the braking.
I can't compete with the $100k high strung, pedigree Mustangs, but I can run with the $50k guys and beat quite a few of them with the $10k I've invested in my vette. Unless you're auditioning for F-1, it's all about fun for the dollar, and you can't beat the vette.

Jim

00 Trans Ram

45ACP-
Holy crap! When was the last time anyone saw a BOOK that gives you a step-by-step guide on how to modify a production car into a race car?!? Damn, that one is going to get printed and put in the shop.

hawngn68-
That pretty much what I want for mine. Nothing exotic - just enough so I'm not driving a station wagon around the track. If I put it into a wall, I want to a) walk away, and b) walk away without crying. Quick questions: What is a "spreader bar"?

Oh, one last thing - the car has a good auto tranny which will stay until the other stuff is done. But, for future reference, what is the best bang-for-the-buck manual out there? (Don't suppose I could transplant my LS1 engine and T-56 6-speed in there, could I? hahaha)

Mark70

You should give Dick Guldstrand a call, and let him know what you have in mind. He has a full selection of suspension components for street, autocross, and full race. He is VERY good at helping you select the correct components for your purpose. My car is setup as a Street/Autocross car, and I'm extremely happy with the performance of my car. Dick has been racing Corvettes for a long time, and he's a wealth of information (and just a really nice gentleman).

http://www.guldstrand.com

Ganey

Sounds good. The FE-7 is an excellent setup as hawgn68 said.
See FE-7 handling under 77 Facts on my website. FE-7 has 550 front & a 7 leaf rear spring. Composite rear spring rec. for less weight. Have run Koni adj. which were not better than the FE-7 shocks. Rear is very strong w/o slicks. 77 has larger half shafts than the early models. Expect you know to build w/ the rules in mind.

00 Trans Ram

Thanks for the Guldstrand note - I have heard of him before. I'll check out the site tonight.

As for "building with rules in mind", I know that I need to. However, I'm not sure where I want to put it. Locally, we have very few tracks (only 1 real road course beween Texas and Alabama). I need to figure out, at the same time, what I want to do with the car and which class that goal fits. I will then design a final plan for the car, with those rules in mind. I'd hate to do something, then find out I broke a rule that forced me out of a class (VERY mindful of that with my current car!).

gkull

Gutted Vettes with only racing in mind is the way to go

You can invest allot in trick suspension, but i'm convinced that it really comes down to balanced springs and sway bars. with the most important thing being tires and alignment settings.

I've got a lightened Vette and 550 pound front and 420 pound rear 1 1/8 F 5/8th rear

You can e-mail me questions.



I came accross this

10 Undeniable Truths about Going Fast


1.) You will not go fast by reading the rulebook - You need to get into the pits and see what other racers are doing to go fast. If you build to the letter of the rulebook, you'll be bringing up the rear at every racing event.

2.) Cheating exists in all types of racing - Some want to sweep it under the rug for the integrity of the sport, but non the less, it's there. I personally hate cheating, but when your competitors are allowed to get away with murder, what are you supposed to do?

3.) 5% of people will dominate - This doesn't just apply to racing, but our entire society. I know this may offend, but 95% of the people in the world are just along for the ride. Only 5% actually do anything of value.

4.) You can't Bolt-On your way to #1 - You can't order a number one qualifier out of a catalog. Fast racers will modify or design from scratch just about every important part on their cars.

5.) A full-time racer will outperform a part-time racer - I'm amazed how many part-time racers think full-time racers are cheating. I know it may be hard to admit, but they're just better. Not because they cheat, but because of their experience.

6.) More money does not directly equal more wins - Stop thinking you're losing because of money. I've seen world champs crowned with a tenth of the budget of their competitors. My advice, focus on what you spend your money on. Look at performance per dollar.

7.) Complaining about a competitor or his car will not make yours faster - Worry about you and your car, they're the only things you truly control. There is no such thing as a perfect car or driver, both can be improved.

8.) The difference between good and great is tuning - I feel like I've said this a thousand times, give the same engine to 10 different racers, you'll have 10 different results. The top tuners will always come out on top.

9.) You can make too much power - Unless you run the Bonneville Salt Flats, there's a good chance you can over power the track. I see it all the time with short track stockcars -- they almost all have too much low end power and spend half their track time at part throttle.

10.) An engineer with commonsense will rise to the top - It's only a theory because the combination doesn't exist Alright, I'm kidding, but you have to admit it's rare. The easiest way to get the same thing is having an engineer team up with someone with commonsense.

Evil_1979

If I had the money and could do it all at once this is what I would have done-

I will essentially be doing this myself but one piece at a time for my autoX-road racer.

http://www.vbandp.com/detail.aspx?ID=482

the price is great (and 10% off for forum members!).

~Kevin

00 Trans Ram

Oooohhhhh, Daddy likey that package! Looks like I'd want to change the swaybar endlinks to use adjustable rod-ends. And, I can't tell if the strut ends are rubber or compsite (I assume poly or nylon).

Let me tell you, $1000 for that is a steal! I paid the following for my 2000 Trans Am:

2 Front Koni SA's - $500
2 Rear Bilsein HD's - $180
1 32mm Front Swaybar - $170
1 21mm Rear Swaybar - $130
2 Ground Control Front adj. coilover setups (with 550lb springs) - $270

That's $1250, without any rear springs (which would add another $150). I'm going to love buying parts for the Vette!

Evil_1979

The smart struts are poly-

I dont know if the "standard" sway bar bushings & end links are rubber or poly-
asking VBP would be a good idea.

The price on this kit is really sweet- after the 10% discount it is awesome! Wish I had gone that route, but did the shocks and front sway bar last fall... Then the front springs and poly front end rebuild this spring. This fall I'm planning on the rear end- poly bushings and sway bar.
Not to mention the BTO 4 speed. Still debating on the 200-4R or 700-R4....

Good luck on the fun project!

~Kevin

aharte

You might want to get the koni shocks. I have VBP's front and rear adjustable leaf springs on fairly hard settings, and they bounce a little with bilsteins. I don't know for sure if koni's work any better, but I'd guess that they would.

Ganey, you can still buy FE-7 shocks? Where?

PatsLs1vette

Sounds like a nice project your getting into too,good luck with it and yes the ls-1 is doable several members already have done it.

00 Trans Ram

Well, obviously you guys know your stuff (not that I ever had any doubts). I just realized that a fellow SCCA Board of Directors member (actually the Regional Exec) owns a race shop. He has built over a hundred race Vettes of the C3 variety. He seconded almost every notion that you all had here (actually, because of your posts, I was able to sound like I had some idea of what I was talking about!). Looks like this is going to be the plan (always gotta have a plan):

Engine - used 350 with stock-ish internals (try to re-use as many parts off original engine as possible to keep costs down); invest money in the oiling system (road race pan, oil cooler, etc.). I may (stress MAY) be able to get my hands on a used race small block pushing 500hp for about $2900, so that could be an option.
Suspension - get the Vette Brakes kit (posted above), minus Bilsteins, and substitute Koni (still deciding between single and double adjustable, though).
Tranny - keep the auto for now; switch to 4 speed at later date. Will decide on type then.
Roll cage - will get one custom bent, then install myself before doing anything else.
Interior - "Interior? We don't need no stinkin' INTERIOR!"
Wheels - Got to decide on 15x10's or 15x12's. The 10" wide ones supposedly fit with no modifications to the body. But, the 12" are what I want (and may need). What kind of rules will I run over if I start cutting the body?
Tires - change of plans; will probably run used tires from pro-cars. These are cheaper, and stickier. But, have to replace them more often.

Think that's about it. From what I can see, I should be able to get all this done for about $5000 (heavily dependant on the engine combo).

Scooter70

See my sig!!!!!!

www.kmmotorsports.com - Click on "LS1 Swap"!!!!!!

I was at Gingerman (Michigan) on Monday and the LS1 in a C3 hauls azz on a roadcourse!!!

Twin_Turbo

OUCH! I will sell my 4 Koni rebound adjustables for that shipped. Any takers?

Springs - I wouldn't run a transverse. something about the "bucky" spring that doesn't appeal to me very much, like a heavy sway bar they take away some of the true independance and there's always harmonics transferring from side to side. 2 mounts are better than 1 but it won't eliminate all problems.
Shocks - Full coil overs, adjustability is not needed since the pos. do not represent actual valvings on most shocks. You'd need a dyno to adjust them all.
Swaybars - The softest bar is always the best, heavy bars eliminate the true independence of the suspension.
Control arms - stock sucks, read the topics about camber, front suspension geometry, caster, bumpsteer...and all. There's a lot of reading on those topics right here on the forum.
Roll cage - Alston Chassis Works

SmokedTires

Check out this link for some rear suspension ideas (not stcok setups ): http://www.corvettefaq.com/c3/Suspen...servations.mht

Here's one of my inspirations that I would love to reach someday: http://adamsgarage.com/gallery/GT1

You can check out my site in my sig for some of the things I've done for autocrossing my C3

Kevin Mason

If your sanctioning body allows this, I suggest getting hold of 17" aluminum wheels and tires (Corvette Central now makes a set that will bolt up to the C-3 with no adapters), and losing some or all of the EPA-mandated safety equipment behind the bumpers (it's heavy).

Also, be prepared (as per the Chevy Power manual) to pull the body off of the frame and stitch-weld the entire frame and gusset it.

If budget and rules allow, you may consider going to an '82 style body on your frame (it's lighter and more aerodynamic).

Road racing rules! It's what Vettes were built for.

Twin_Turbo

Smokedtires, that's exactly what I am currently building, that's how i will have my coil overs set up. I was looking for that body kit but couldn't find it... I also am working on the front scoop, it will look something like that. Have the lower side completed but need to wait for my fluidyne oil cooler to finish the top.
That car is awesome (except for the location of the dry sump tank & the rear)

gkull

You should look at tire sizes an determine what wheel you need. 18 X12 inch rear and 17x10 fronts Have some nice Kumo race tires.

The other thing to look at is all Heim joint metal ends.

Build your motor around the idea of wide power band with lot's of rpm so you don't have to shift. Back when I Auto-Xed The local courses were generally 18 turn 1 miles. the faster cars could get up to the mid 80 mph. So I would just drive the whole course in second gear . my red line is near 90 in second. so I never hit the rev limiter.

Auto trannies are a big problem at AX. Years ago I had a Monza V-8 and tried a 1400 stall convertor and a full manual shifter for awhile so it was kind of like a manual. I later went to a 5 speed.