djlangford

I would call this a solenoid, but can't find one at Napa, Autozone, or online. What the heck is this, and does anyone have a part #, either GM, Delco, or other.

Its from a '74 BB Auto, CA Emission, A/C. :confused: :conehead

Thanks,
David

PS< Dialup users, beware, the real image is large.

http://members.***.net/djlangford/corvette_photos.htm

Greg

WHOAA!!! That's a BIG picture Dave! That is a Ford style solenoid. It shouldn't be there, someone has added it. Is it hooked up to your starter?

The Dude

It looks like a Ford-style starter solenoid to me. Maybe somebody retrofitted your car at some point because of heat soak/starter problems?

djlangford

I haven't traced the cables, but there definatley has been some re-wiring on this.

Heat soak is what I'm trying to solve, about to replace the starter, tried the heat-wrap, have hooker headers now, too.

I knew I reconized this from somewhere. I worked on a '67 fastback when I was a teenager.

Sorry about the photo size, I thought my website auto resized based on broweser setting...guess not.

Wires go through firewall, to top and bottom of alternator, and to starter.

This might help, I tried to trace as many cables as possible:

http://members.***.net/djlangford/solenoid_detail.htm

Greg

Through firewall are probably going to the ignition. If the car had headers before Bubba was probably trying to eliminate 'no starts' when the original solenoid heated up. Easiest thing to do, pull all that crap out and go back to the original set up. This won't be as hard as it sounds. And wrap the starter to protect it from your new headers.
Greg

81' Corvette Guy

Yeah...that is a Ford style solenoid, used to have a 64' T'Bird..had a couple of em. Anyhow, looks like Bubba's been busy there putting that Ford gear in your Vette! Should be pretty ez to replace..if you want to continue the fine work that Bubba's been doing...heh! Hope you get it squared away!

Big Fish

I think it might be wired to be a battery kill switch (disconnects all accessories when the key is off) The wiring on it doesn't seem heavy enough to drive the starter motor. Only one wire to starter, which starter terminal?

SanDiegoPaul

Hot Crank Solenoid
:yesnod:

74BBcherryred

I have a 74 BB also is that mounted in side the left front fender ,i have something similar to that mounted there . Dave

mrvette

KNow what's funny to me.??? don't you STILL have to activate the GM solenoid to move that Bendix spring toward the flywheel in order to engage it??? if so....when that happens the contact are made for the starter to run right there inside the GM solenoid....so firing the starter motor is nothing to do with actually moving that gear/spring/clutch to engage the flywheel/flexplate....

so just exactly WHAT is accomplished by doing that install....frankly I have never done one...and can't see exactly what is accomplished....

I know the internal functions of that moveable field lever type thing used as a solenoid to move the bendix to engage the gears in a Ford starter of some decades ago...so that's not it....

GENE

cardo0

Okay now I've found an unhappy BB customer. :lolg: Just last weekend I had three honest forum members testify that everyone they new running a remote solenoid fixed thier heat soak/stater problem. Well hears my post on the subjet:

I shouldn't say this as it steps on a lot of good effort of others but...... <img NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.corvetteforum.cc/zeroimg/smilies/icon_bs.gif" BORDER="0">
Installing a remote solenoid on a GM starter is just putting two solenoids in series or back to back and does not remove or deminish the hot start problems of the starter motor mounted solenoid . By design the GM starter needs the starter motor mounted solenoid linkage arm and cann't force out the starter gear without it. Now a Ford is designed to operate without the solenoid on motor - different linkage for gear. Whew! Had to get it out.<img NAME="icon" SRC="http://www.corvetteforum.cc/zeroimg/smilies/conehead.gif" BORDER="0">
The stock shield would protect solenoid from stock ram style exhaust but not headers. The real cure here is a good heat shield and Ecklers has a good looking one but I found the same shield at PAW for 1/2 price. <img NAME="icon" SRC="https://www.corvetteforum.com/zeroimg/smilies/thumbsup.gif" BORDER="0">

Extra research shows the Ford stater with permanent magnents are attracted to motor armature - once energized by power from remote solenoid - that pull in a lever to throw out the stater gear. Now the Chevy (GM) solenoid must remain on stater motor to pull in lever that pushes out starter gear - yes remains heat soaked .
Now I've been heat shield shopping myself and I like the polished SS item at Summit for ~$20. The polished SS should help reflect heat. An improvement here would be to ceramic coat for thermal barrier. The problem is where the shield attaches to starter and could actually tranfer more heat to solenoid/stater. An advantage of a mini-starter is more dead air space between stater/solenoid and exhaust sys..

I see that some members have made a lot of good effort trying help to others with remote solenoids trying to fix hot start problems. I'm sorry if I bust a few bubbles here but this would be somethng hard to see unless done in a laboratory under controled conditions. The only help a remote solenoid may provide is to act as a heat sink to remove some of the heat from starter motor (heat flows hot to cold). ;)

Greg

:iagree: Totally

Stinger66

I suppose when someone doesnt understand something,, they feel the need to look down their collective noses at some poor stiff trying to do the best with the info he has available to him..hummmmmmm sounds like the C5 forum...too funny..Ok Ok , Ill go back to the C-2 forum right after this post...
In my humble opinion,, the addition of a FoMoCo remote starter relay/solenoid on a non NCRS corvette is one of the first mods to do after the addition of headers, (even non-header cars).

We didnt add them to replace the solenoid at the starter,, but they were there to assist during hot engine starts to provide the required hi amps needed to start high compression high performance engines....when the starter mounted solenoid gets well overheated, the relay wont transfer the necessary amperage thru the solenoid,, you will notice the solenoin engages the gear to the flywheel, but it cant turn the engine over fast enuf if at all to start it..go grab the starter cable from the battery and notice how the outer insulation melts into your hand from the cable resistance..
The remote system provides the needed amps to allow the starter motor to turn as designed and start the engine.

A bolt on metal heat sheild will help out much,, but best if used to lower the direct heat from the headers,, not to replace the use of the remote solenoid..
The heat sheild will help prevent the heat related damage to starter components,, i.e. solder joints, springs, wires.

As an added benifit,, the remote unit is a handy aid in tuning the engine and other jobs where you need to bump the engine around from under the hood
The only reason you will need someone in the car will be to make sure you have it in neutral before you bump it over or start it, as it will bypass any neutral safety switches in the system...
We incorporated these remote solenoids in my Winston West cars in the early 80's and are still used today.. must be some advantage to them...Good Luck,, and remember,, Its just my opinion :rofl: :rofl:


[Modified by Stinger66, 1:11 AM 6/9/2003]


[Modified by Stinger66, 1:17 AM 6/9/2003]

Weird Science

I'm an electrical engineer by trade, and understand a few things about volts and amps.

The hot start problem is this: The heat causes the internal resitence of the starter mount solenoid to rise to the point it can not source enough current to the starter motor.

1st, I highly doubt this is your remote starter solenoid. No friggin way those itty bitty wires are passing the required amperage to the starter. You can use a starter solenoid for ANYTHING that you chose. The only difference (elecrtically) between that big **** solenoid and a relay is the solenoid can handle a much larger load. So, that one in your pic could be used for anything.

Now when I got my remote kit from Summit and looked at the schematic and read the instructions, the first thing I thought is this is a complete waste. As stated above, it is just asking you to wire two soelnoids in series. There is 0 benefit from that. Solenoids do not increase voltage. They are just a switch.

I also read the post above from the guy that swears they increase available amperage to the starter. At first I called :bs but after thinking some more, I thought of how this could be true. This WOULD work as he described, but you can NOT hook it up according to the instructions. You would need to run the cable from the remote solenoid to the starter post that goes straight to the starter motor, not the 'usual' bat post. This WOULD provide all the power the starter needs, but need to be used WITH the remote mount solenoid as well. The reason is the starter mount solenoid also kicks out the gear to engage with the flywheel. Also, even though the starter mount solenoid may have problems, using it in parallel with the remote mount will increase the current that can go to the started. Basically, they would work together.

NHvette

Electrical Engineer here, too. Totally agree with everything below.
Mostly with the fact that the thin 12 guage wires coming and going to
that Ford sloenoid will do little for a starter motor current draw.

Probably an accesory cutout like someone mentioned above or a relay to power up a big audio amp.
:seeya


[Modified by NHvette, 2:53 PM 6/9/2003]

Tom454

The pic is a Starter RELAY... not a SOLENOID.
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book3/9h.htm


The RELAY is a device that acts upon the same fundamental principle as the solenoid. The difference between a relay and a solenoid is that a relay does not have a movable core (plunger) while the solenoid does.

Ford uses a starter relay and a "Bendix" or starter drive.
GM uses a solenoid and a drive gear.

I could be wrong of course... I'm not an electrical engineer...

cardo0

Okay lets beat this solenoid thing to death guys. :lol: I have to open my big mouth again here. :eek: I realize I don't have an engineering degree but I have ripped into a GM solenoid or two. The offending heat soaked solenoid is bypasses by the stater current through a slip ring contact once the energized coil pulls in the slug/lever (which kicks out the stater gear on the other end). What I'm trying to say is the solenoid coil is bypassed by the starter armature current once the slug/lever is pulled in - if the heat soaked solenoid can pull it . The key here is the heat soaked solenoid has to pull in the slug/lever enough to make up the slip ring contacts and throw out the starter gear. I really appreciate your expertise Weird Science and NHvette and thank you for jumping in soo please correct me if I'm wrong here as I still don't see any remote solenoid as a cure. :skep:

Stinger66

The use of the term Relay is correct, I dont know what the remote unit in the post is being used for ,, but we used them at the firewall as a relay between the battery + post and the starter motor.. On the starter we put a jumper wire from the sol. post to the Bat . post
We run a wire from start post at keyswitch to the ign. post on relay to energise the relay, allowing full power to the Bat. post witch inturn gives full power to the sol. post. energising the starter solenoid..
Its not rocket science, just poor engineering on the G. M.
Thru the years G.M. tried many different fixes for this problem.. Now they have the hi torq starters that will flip your car should the engine not turn over upon hitting the start switch...

ry

looks amost like a horn relay

clem zahrobsky

gm retrofit this type of remote solenoid setup on their 454 motorhome chassis because of the heat soak problem with the gm starter solenoid. :chevy