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Why do the push rods need to be kept in order?

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Old 03-12-2003, 02:54 AM
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sharkthehunter77
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Default Why do the push rods need to be kept in order?

The guys at the Pearl harbor auto hobby shop say this is not necessary, but all other sources of info say to do this so i have. Busy week for me and with over 75% of the squadron deployed ( and my turn to head out coming up veryvery soon) this whole project cam swap may be put on long hold.
As far as the gunk in the engines lifter valley is concerned, its not any amount any 98,000 mile small block would'nt have. The plan is to maybe replace the oil pump ( barring the presence of a receipt from the previous owner's file ). Later this year i'm having a set of aluminum edelbrock performer heads put in and maybe punch her out .030/ by one of the corvette/chevy specialist recommended by a close friend in the squadron( he build/restored his wifes early C4 up with a great 383) and that should take care of the ware and tear issues.
Old 03-12-2003, 02:59 AM
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Ironcross
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

They don`t have to, there all the same length. :thumbs: On top of that, they are constantly roatating. If worn, replace them. :cheers:


[Modified by Ironcross, 1:17 PM 3/12/2003]
Old 03-12-2003, 09:06 AM
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Tom454
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (Ironcross)

The issue is not related to the length of the pushrods on a SBC... the issue is the wear pattern established between each pushrod and its respective rocker arm and lifter. It is good practice to reinstall each combo (rocker, pushrod, lifter) as a "matched" set if there is significant wear. Severe wear patterns can generate a lot of powdered metal and cause other problems when re-installed out of order. So... it's a general rule, not always a requirement.
Old 03-12-2003, 09:08 AM
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Sigforty
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (Tom454)

:iagree: Tom put it down they way I would have. It is all about the wear patterns. It is the same reason you try to keep the cam lifters in order if they are removed.
Old 03-12-2003, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (Tom454)

:withstupid: ditto.
not an issue if your replacing both lifters and rockers. but if your not replacing both, it's a good idea. i've never experienced a failure related to it but it's so easy to do, why not? since your considering doing the oil pump 'while your at it' (you will find that becomes a major theme in your corvette life) don't forget to replace the seal in the timing chain cover and you might want to put a sleave on the harmonic balancer if your reusing the original. let us know how this project comes along.
i'm not familiar with the project, seems i came in about half way through. what's the build up you've selected and the circumstances regarding the tear down? how far along are you now? are you pulling the heads? if you are new to this, there are some seemingly simple things you can do now that will give you much more enjoyment once everything is back together.
Old 03-12-2003, 12:07 PM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

I did a few motor swaps there 25 years ago when I was stationed at Ford Island.

Push rod in the same hole is a new one to me. I've never done it. On a flat cam they are spinning and if I pull them out I just inspect for ware and see if the tips are chipped or cracked. I do keep lifters in the same hole if they are non roller.
Old 03-12-2003, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (clutchdust)

just searched for some of your topics. read your previous posts. YIKES! i think that cam may be kind of radical for an otherwise stock L48. just my $.02. it's pretty darn healthy. if you haven't really messed with it yet, (*just my opinion*) i'd suggest you try to exchange it for something more in the 262-268 range. you'll likely make as much or more power and have better idle quality and vacuum.
either way, you should have your lifters sitting in a container of oil. doubt anyone has told you these things yet. if you can scrounge up an old push rod, give them a couple light taps (using the pushrod as a punch) each day until you actually drop them in the engine. this will help load them with oil and 'burp' them too.
clean all your gasket mating surfaces with a gasket scraper to get the big chunks of crap off, then use a green scotchbrite pad and finally rinse the surfaces with brake clean or similar residue free solvant.
like a previous poster said, use RTV for the front and rear block to manifold seal. run a nice, thick bead all the way across trying to keep the same thickness evenly. you want to do this about 30 minutes prior to when your going to reinstall the manifold so it gets 'tacky', meaning it's stiff but still a little bit sticky. then go have a burger or something before you drop that manifold in place.
everywhere else, you want to use an extra thin layer of silicone. trust me, this is where most rookies really screw up and it is disappointing to get all done with an engine and finally drive it and before the break-in mileage is complete you have a big greasy pig in your parking spot. i won't speak on the one piece oil pan gasket because i don't use them but on all your cork gaskets including a conventional oil pan gasket, put a thin layer on both the mating surfaces. it should be thin enough that you can still see the metal or cork underneath the silicone. then when you tighten anything like the timing chain cover, valve covers, oil pan, etc, use a 1/4" ratchet and socket in your palm. it may not seem like it but trust me, that will be plenty tight enough. any more than that and you stand a good chance of deforming the sheetmetal and squeezing both the silicone and gasket out in certain places and i promise you that will leak.
once you get the cam, timing chain and lifters in place, go ahead and put your pushrods and rocker arms on. in my opinion, this is the best time to make your initial adjustments on your rocker arms. it should be relatively easy to rotate the crankshaft using the crank snout and a large set of channellock type pliers (be careful not to gouge the surface, i usually make it a point to use the woodruff key to leverage the crank). rotate the engine until you can see #1 cylinder is all the way up and both lifters are as far down in their bore as they can go, usually just flush with bore itself. then tighten both rockers on that cylinder down until they are just snug on the valve tip. rotate the engine 1/4 rotation at a time and follow your firing order and tighten the corresponding rockers until you've done all eight cylinders. this is just an initial setting, you'll still have to go back after the engine is running and do it again.
before you start the engine the first time, you want to get oil up to your new parts so you need to pump the oil. you can use a drill mounted tool to drive you oil pump before you drop in your distributor or just unplug the hot to your distributor and rotate the engine with the starter until you get oil pressure on your gauge. best to do this with no plugs in to turn the engine over with less resistance.
let's see, anything else? hmmm... can't think of anything else right now, maybe somebody else will jump in and add anything i missed or even dispute someplace i screwed up.
most important (as others have said), take your time and have fun! this will be one of the most satisfying things you'll ever do with your car, especially when it starts up and runs the first time. i tried to explain it to my wife once and it's the male equivalent to giving birth! :jester :lol: :cheers:
Old 03-12-2003, 03:51 PM
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sharkthehunter77
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (clutchdust)

I had the same concerns with that cam, yet it is sapposed to be the proper one used in the edelbrock power package and i have their "performer" intake manifold ( installed before i bought the car) so we will see how it goes. Every one elses cams were a little milder in the range you mentioned but i am hoping for the advertised 0-5500 RPM sweet spot with my combo of Performer cam, performer manifold and true dual exhaust. The carb is a rebuilt Q-jet and may prove to be the weak link but it has'nt gien me any problems so i will leaveit be untill X-mas when i go shopping for a new carb. truth be told i like having small primaries and larger secondaries so when I say new carb i mean edelbrock Q-jet.
The reason for the project is to install a new cam, a better harmonic balancer, and learn more about the chavy small block in general and the condition of mine in particular. As i stated in a previous post, i just decided to change the oil about 5 weeks ago and to my horror discovered less then 2 quarts in the engine. I decide to join the DIY club becuase she runs so sweat. I mean i have had all sorts of local and long time hot rodders look at my small block ( when we can all get the time to socialize) and the general concensus was that while a little tired and certainly a little rough around the edges the engine is in pretty good shape for 98,000 miles. Yet, is in need of TLC. So, my options are.... crate engine...all ways a great choice, but oh yea i forgot. I'm an E5 in the Navy, and 4 keys for a ZZ4 is out of the question. If it came to the car absolutly needing a new engine then it would have to sit for months while i saved up and how much fun is that!?!? I MUST do what i can to increase the life time and performance for my CSB as my environment both financial and logistical demand. That means I instal a new cam matching the manifold, and later someone much smarter and more experienced installs 67cc aluminum heads/punches her .030 over and i may have the engine balanced. Its a staged approach. i am allways open to suggestion as its never tooo late to tur around ...its just sometimes too late to turn around cheaply!!!
Old 03-12-2003, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

well, i'm just glad to see you getting this involved. seems alot of people aren't willing to take the plunge because they lack the confidence that they can actually take something apart and then put it back together and actually have it work. :cheers:
no offense but i still don't like the cam selection simply because of your compression. i'm assuming your not pulling the heads since you haven't said (or i just missed it). if you were to pull the heads and have them rebuilt, they could be milled slightly to bring up the compression and then a thinner gasket to bring it up even more. i don't think i would like that cam with less than 9.0:1 static CR. i'm pretty sure that the L48 was 8.2-8.5:1. i don't know that it will be any less powerful than the 262 (but i'd bet it won't have the push down low where you want it) but it's going to compromise fuel economy (becoming more relevant every day) and drivability.
way back when i used to work for comp cams i asked one of our salesmen about cam selection and the resounding conclusion is that almost everyone over cams an engine. this particular guy used to say that he would ask the customer what size they thought they wanted and then listen to see how much it appeared they knew. if they were pretty knowledgeable, he'd recommend one size smaller than what they thought would be good. if they didn't really know, go two sizes smaller.
i am a big fan of the q-jet though so i, for one, applaud your decision there. i think for the most part holleys are overrated and i'll take my rochester any day.
just think about it this way, if you do get deployed, then you have all that time and combat pay to save up for that fastburn 385 or zz4. hope that it happens for you like it did for me during the first go around, it was over before i got a chance to deploy.
:cheers: :flag :seeya
Old 03-12-2003, 08:10 PM
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biggjimm
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

Hey Shark whats up? Just wanted to let you know to only use RTV sealant on the manifold ends and you can use some around the water ports on the side gaskets but DO NOT use any RTV around the intake ports. As gasoline will eat the sealant. Never use RTV adjacent to gasoline. Im not sure if any one mentioned it yet but make sure you run the engine at 2000 RPM's for twenty minutes to break in the cam properly. Not doing this will cause your cam to wear excessively. When you install the push rods and rocker arms, do this one cylinder at a time, make sure both lifters are all the way down in their bore (valves closed) spin the push rod in your fingers as you tighten the rocker nut, when you feel the drag of the rocker arm on the pushrod as you are spinning it, turn 1/4 turn more and stop. do every cylinder this way and you will be pretty close. You will still probably have to readjust them after the engine warms up, but this will let you break the cam in properly without having a bunch of clanging lifters. I just fired my new 511 HP 355 in my 73 last saturday and adjusting the lifters that way put them right where they needed to be. Make sure you soak the new lifters in clean moter oil first. If I think of any thing else that might help you I will post it as well. Good luck biggjimm
Old 03-12-2003, 10:39 PM
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sharkthehunter77
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (biggjimm)

511 HP from a 355, well no wonder they calls you biggjimm!!! :eek:
Sooo, this thing with the push rods hepls out becuase of the engines hot/cold cycle right? If the push rods get soaked in engine oil what about lubricant for the rest of the lifter valley stuff? this gets funner by the minute!!!
Old 03-12-2003, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

no, no, no! it's not the pushrods, the lifters. you want to put them in a container and then fill it with clean oil over the top of the lifters. they're hydraulic meaning they use engine oil to function. if you don't presoak them, well, it's not good on them. but beyond that, once you fire up the engine it won't have any oil in the lifter then as it fills (if they don't suffer any damage in the meantime) they will tighten up your rocker arm adjustment. that will be a weird problem because you'll be able to start the engine but after the oil pressure is up and the lifters 'pump up', they will hold the valves open and it will run very poorly if it runs at all. to add to what biggjimm said, once your done with the initial break in (that 2000rpm for 20 minute thing), back the engine down to a normal idle. somewhere between 700-900rpm, probably closer to 900 with that cam. then with the valve cover off and the engine running, start on the #1 exhaust valve and loosen it until you hear a distinct 'click'. then slowely tighten it up until it goes away. then go a 1/4 turn past that point. you may notice the engine begin to run rough but this is normal. give it 10-15 seconds to smooth out and tighten another 1/4 turn, wait and another 1/4 turn. do this with each valve then go to the other side. for the final adjustment, you want each lifter to be 1/2-3/4 turn past the 'tick'. be prepared! the engine will squirt oil through the pushrod/rocker arm holes like mad. put something under the car to catch it (i use and old shower curtain), put something on you and your fenders. as the engine warms up it's going to burn off the headers too so be ready for that, it's not really a bad thing it just looks like the car is on fire. you may be able to buy or borrow a set of oil deflector clips. these do just like they say and clip onto the rocker arm and cover that hole. it still allows the oil to come out (i.e. watch for oil draining over the lower portion of the valve cover mating surface) but it just prevents it from shooting 30 feet across the shop! after that, set your timing, check your water and oil level and your just about ready to take it for a test spin. when you get back crack open a cold one and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
:cheers:
Old 03-12-2003, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

BTW, go to the parts store and buy some engine assembly lube. use it L*I*B*E*R*A*L*L*Y on any engine part that moves. don't have any left over. your going to change the oil and filter in 500 miles anyway.
the cam isn't that bad on break in either. pretty much after the 20 minute break in and the valve adjustment, your just about ready to go spank some rice. i would probably suggest alot of the usual break in proceedures such as vary your speed, gradually work your way up in peak rpm's, etc. for a while (maybe 100 miles) but for the most part, break in proceedures are for rings to seat, if your not doing rings, it shouldn't be a problem, just a safety precaution.
:steering:
Old 03-12-2003, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (clutchdust)

clutchdust...very good info there!! i'm not even building an engine and i read all you typed! :crazy: good stuff, keep it up :thumbs:
Old 03-13-2003, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (radwebster)

clutchdust...very good info there!! i'm not even building an engine and i read all you typed! :crazy: good stuff, keep it up :thumbs:
:thumbs: Check on that. This thread is nearly a complete tech tip on top end rebuild. :thumbs:
Good advice - been through about 98% of that myself. Especially for someone
just learning, one of those "How to Rebuild your CSB" books can be useful and fun reading.

Good Luck :seeya
Old 03-13-2003, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

If one pushrod bends or breaks, you only replace one, so it is fine to mix/match. It is however good practice to keep them in order. It makes you more judiscious in keeping lifters, valves, bolts and things organized. Good Luck
Old 03-13-2003, 11:04 AM
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sharkthehunter77
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (clutchdust)

The valve adjustment post is getting sent straight to the printer so i can lamenate it. The engine is approaching zero hour, the old cam comes out right after work, the new lifters will be soaked in engine oil over night at the hobbby shop and then, friday my new( way tooo lopey for this compression cam goes in). Now the wife and i were talking, she has aproved the purchase of new cylinder heads( only becuase she didnt ask ...How much$). I want 67cc combustion chambers, a thin head gasket and power mostly below 5500RPM to match the reast of my set up. Should i have my current heads ported, they are 75cc chambers and probably do not flow all that well!!!

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Old 03-13-2003, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

( way tooo lopey for this compression cam goes in).
was that for me? :blush: i reread that post and i guess it did come off a little strong. sorry about that. man, i'm just wishing you best of luck and hope it turns out better than you expect! :cheers:
good to hear about the aluminum heads. are those going on at this time as well or later on?
i'm jealous, now i want aluminum heads! :cry
Old 03-13-2003, 01:34 PM
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sharkthehunter77
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (clutchdust)

no i would nerver attack you or any forum member. I am admitting that i thought the cam was abit RADICAL when i purchased it 2 weeks ago, but am putting my faith in the fact that edelbrock says that it should work for my car becuase it matches their performer manifold. The performers package also includes headers I have true dual exhaust and the old pop-up headlights are removed, so i hope no vacuum problems insue. My chief concern now is getting new cylinder heads. Since i am awaiting orders to ship out i plan to 1) pick a set of heads 2) win the war in Iraq ( i will be on the ground) and 3) return and have someone really really really good at this engine stuff put them in. I will post a question late this evening about heads.
Old 03-13-2003, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: Why do the push rods need to be kept in order? (sharkthehunter77)

Sharkthemechanic77,

I see the fun has begun! Keep the “fun” your objective through the whole process and you’ve become a certified hotrodder for life.

I read parts of the posts up above and wanted to share my 2 cents on them. First, that “Performer” cam you mention is just a step above the stock cam. Don’t expect too much of a improvement in performance from it. I think Clutchdust is thinking you got the wilder “Performer RPM” cam. That is probably why he is cautioning you. If you are going to do the head-swap now, get yourself a bigger cam.

Second, if you are using the thick grease-like type of assembly lube on your cam & lifters, don’t put on too much. That stuff could temporarily block oil passages and cause problems.

Third, soaking the lifters in oil may work sometimes. The better way to preload the lifter is to use a trigger-squirt oil can just before you drop them in.

My last bit of advice is now that your engine will no longer be stock, distributor timing and carburetor settings will need to be tweaked to obtain the best performance. So don’t depend on all of those factory specifications for optimal performance. Welcome to hotrodding!

Norris


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