C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age
11-01-2002, 02:49 AM
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St. Jude Contributor
C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age
How many of the C4's & C5's do you think will hold their original value(or double/triple) 30 years later like the C3's have done? In my view... none, zilch, nada. Although these new fangled Vettes can run circles around the C3's with their tech suspensions & computer monitored everything, who would want to own one of those things 30 years from now? There are probably 100,000 more things that can go wrong with all of the circuitry going through those cars and 99% of the owners do not buy them with the intent of maintaining themselves like the C3 owners do. The C5 owners may take offense, but GM doesn't want your vette on the streets 30 years from now as they learned their lesson of the 50's, 60's & 70's. There is not (1) GM car that I can think of that was made in the 80's that is worth anything at all. The only good thing for GM was that Ford & Mopar lost their intentions of value well before they did, so at least the toned down mid to late 70's vettes were better than anything else being made. The rest of GM's line? Pretty much junk along with the others. I consider that the age where every American car flat went to hell as far as resaleable value. The manufacturers of today are not the manufacturers back then. Granted the manufacturers have reinstalled *horsepower* as an option, but the stuff being built today cannot go through the abuse(and last) compared to what we were able to do to those motors/trannys back in the 60's/70's. Aluminum heads... aluminum blocks... that's fine for lightening components in drag racing, but for longevity? Excuse me, but the stuff today is high tech junk that GM, Ford & Mopar are offering as an excuse to compete with the likes of the BMW and their Japanese counterparts.
By the way... I ran across my first *Prowler* the other day. One sharp looking vehicle with a briggs & stratton sounding motor in it. I feel for the old time Mopar people that remember the days of the Cudas, Challengers & Super Bee's. Whomever didn't design a V-8 into that should be strung up at sunrise.
By the way... I ran across my first *Prowler* the other day. One sharp looking vehicle with a briggs & stratton sounding motor in it. I feel for the old time Mopar people that remember the days of the Cudas, Challengers & Super Bee's. Whomever didn't design a V-8 into that should be strung up at sunrise.
11-01-2002, 05:03 AM
#2
Melting Slicks
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
I think that, just like C2s and early C3s weren't worth much in the late 70s and 80s, you will see the rarer C4s (ZR1s, 40th anniv, Grand Sports, Pace Cars, and LT4s) pick up in value as time passes. Same goes for the Z06 to a lesser extent since many were made. Rarity and performance always makes specific cars of any category more collectable. I know alot of C4 and C5 guys that do all of their own work; just hang out on their forums for a while and you will see. Don't be so quick to judge the new tech as 'junk'; the advances that have allowed the Z06 to crank out well into the mid 300s RWHP from a stock small block is much more than all but a few of the old stock big block cars. With minor mods, these guys can easily get 400+ RWHP. As a matter of fact, most factory BB cars were well under that figure due to mild street-friendly cams and drivetrain loss of the C3s versus the new more efficient C4 and C5 drivetrains. All vettes are :cool: , some more than others IMO but all are genuine :chevy and will carry on the legend. :cheers:
Agree 100% on the prowler; killer looks with mosquito bite :lol: :lol:
[Modified by Marks69BB, 3:06 AM 11/1/2002]
Agree 100% on the prowler; killer looks with mosquito bite :lol: :lol:
[Modified by Marks69BB, 3:06 AM 11/1/2002]
11-01-2002, 06:45 AM
#3
Team Owner
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
I think you are largely correct there, especially in referance to the electronics longevity....once they stop making many modules or circuits boards, like the intermittant wiper board for the late sharks.....it's over...
between the government on one side limiting mods, and the lack of parts on the other....or just plain the PRICE of the parts.....
not to mention of course the inherant wiring itself.....lousey execution....
I tore into an '84 once for extensive electrical work....lemme tell you, it's a h urting experience, the myrid connectors burried everywhere make even the power windows a bit much to repair....and here I"m an experienced ET, the typical guy gets it, and it's over....
GENE
between the government on one side limiting mods, and the lack of parts on the other....or just plain the PRICE of the parts.....
not to mention of course the inherant wiring itself.....lousey execution....
I tore into an '84 once for extensive electrical work....lemme tell you, it's a h urting experience, the myrid connectors burried everywhere make even the power windows a bit much to repair....and here I"m an experienced ET, the typical guy gets it, and it's over....
GENE
11-01-2002, 09:29 PM
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Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (Marks69BB)
Mark,
I have nothing against the *tech* that is going into the cars today. All of the electronics though make them very suspect to lasting and as I stated above... GM doesn't want cars anymore that last 30-40 years that every local mechanic can work on easily and I believe the *NEW* GM builds in obsolesence of their parts. The car manufacturers offer 70,000 mile warranties because they have designed them to last that long & no longer. I wouldn't put it past any of them that if they find a major part that can last 150,000 miles(or 10 years) they sent it back to the drawing board for redesign back to 70,001 miles. If it lasts only 55,000 miles... so be it... warranty work.
I have no doubt that many of the C4/C5 owners have bought all of the electronic modules to figure things out and they are probably able to do many of the maintenance/repairs. Personally, I would be surprised if it were anywhere near the amount of C3 owners who have a shot with the basic tool box and a Chilton's manual.
Just out of curiousity... would you junk a '69 427 if it got flooded out and required taking down the motor & rewiring it? Most of us could do that. Do that to a C5/C6 and throw it away.
I have nothing against the *tech* that is going into the cars today. All of the electronics though make them very suspect to lasting and as I stated above... GM doesn't want cars anymore that last 30-40 years that every local mechanic can work on easily and I believe the *NEW* GM builds in obsolesence of their parts. The car manufacturers offer 70,000 mile warranties because they have designed them to last that long & no longer. I wouldn't put it past any of them that if they find a major part that can last 150,000 miles(or 10 years) they sent it back to the drawing board for redesign back to 70,001 miles. If it lasts only 55,000 miles... so be it... warranty work.
I have no doubt that many of the C4/C5 owners have bought all of the electronic modules to figure things out and they are probably able to do many of the maintenance/repairs. Personally, I would be surprised if it were anywhere near the amount of C3 owners who have a shot with the basic tool box and a Chilton's manual.
Just out of curiousity... would you junk a '69 427 if it got flooded out and required taking down the motor & rewiring it? Most of us could do that. Do that to a C5/C6 and throw it away.
11-01-2002, 11:17 PM
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Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (Cajun75)
Cajun75...
What part of N.O. are you from? I spent most of my terror partying years in La. High school in Algiers.... college at LSU.... and '80-'96 living in Marrero. There were some great rod-runs on Saturday nites at the shopping center right across the Huey P Long bridge on the east bank. Can't remember the name of it right now. I've got 3 plaques from the SOB car show there each year with a '69 Coupe I owned that was painted in *Saints* colors... black with a gold racing stripe(interior matching).
What part of N.O. are you from? I spent most of my terror partying years in La. High school in Algiers.... college at LSU.... and '80-'96 living in Marrero. There were some great rod-runs on Saturday nites at the shopping center right across the Huey P Long bridge on the east bank. Can't remember the name of it right now. I've got 3 plaques from the SOB car show there each year with a '69 Coupe I owned that was painted in *Saints* colors... black with a gold racing stripe(interior matching).
11-01-2002, 11:17 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
There might be more wires, sensors, and modules, but there are defintely car guys who own C4's and C5's. With the new computer interfaces I have seen, you can get 02 readings, timing, fuel ratio, temps, and lots of other great data that I think engine builders of all generations would like to have. C4's and C5's are great cars, really fun to drive, and very fast.
If you want to talk about reliability, we could always compare how long original C3 wiper systems work compared to C4's and C5's. :D
AC
If you want to talk about reliability, we could always compare how long original C3 wiper systems work compared to C4's and C5's. :D
AC
11-01-2002, 11:19 PM
#8
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
Have to disagree here...
IMHO, anyone who thinks a C4 or C5 is too hard to work on (wiring or otherwise) has never worked on one. Yes, they are more complicated than a C3, that's why I love my C3. BUT, they are not impossible, and the more FI and electronically controlled cars I work on the more I like and respect them. There may be more connectors, but they each one tends to be more unique and therefore easier to identify. My C3 has about 100 "clip-on" connectors, each like the other except MAYBE for the wire color. But if you haven't spent some time with a newer car it's hard to explain.
As far as collectibility...well, people were chunking C3s left and right not so long ago. This is easy to see from the condition so many of us found are cars in. Used up, abused, spit out, etc. but they are coming back. The C4 is one the way to a similar fate. I have a friend at work who has bought three C4s this year, each for less than about $4000 (one or two quite a bit less). They are abused, overworked, underappreciated, and in need of TLC. And he will give it to them. Each will be a nice car, and worth quite a bit more than what he paid.
I paid $2600 for my '74 in '97. My friends didn't get it...it was just on old Vette to them, essentially worthless. I have watched the values increase a fair bit while I restified mine to the show winning beauty that it is today. I love it, and so do alot of people I meet who see it, whether at shows or at the gas station filling up.
I bought a '96 Collector Edition coupe last week. It's something I've loved since they came out, and the prices finally hit where I thought it was a good deal. It's an LT4, one year only engine, Collector Edition, red interior (1 of something like 540), and hard loaded. Bone stock it is probably faster then my heavily modified '74. Do I think it will be collectible...I think it already is. Ask my dad about his plain jain (though very nice) '86 coupe. Corvettes are collectible, and will maintain some value no matter what age or condition, just some more than others.
There are some C4 and C5 owners who wouldn't own a C3 if you gave it to them. Of course, there are others who appreciate our cars. Value is subjective...a car is worth what someone will pay for it. There will be as many people (maybe more) with a passion for C4 and C5 Corvettes as there have been for all the other generations, the C4 passion is growing rapidly even as we speak.
Let's see...cars from the 80s that are worth something today...Buick Grand Nationals, Corvettes, some Camaros and Mustangs. Of course, people are starting to hot rod Malibus, Monte Carlos, even Impalas.
About aluminum...considering that most engines couldn't make it much past 100K or so back in the 60s and 70s without a rebuild, I think that you are incorrect. Alot of what contributes to the longevity of todays engines is the superior engine management systems (FI, computer controls, etc) that keep the dilution of the oil and cylinder washdown to a minimum. Ironically, we owe that technology to the quest for emissions reductions. My '76 Suburban was driven by an old man all of it's 89K miles when I got it. It got 7 mpg and smoked at startup because the valve guide seals were shot. My '96 Collector Edition Corvette uses no oil, and gets well over 20 mpg at 80K miles, probably much rougher miles (it is a sports car, after all, complete with aluminum heads).
I am rambling...and have been for quite a bit.
I see your point, but I think it is a bit narrow minded. Look at the big picture, ask yourself what your C3 is worth compared to it's value new, and think about it's longevity compared to today's vehicles.
It's all a matter of perspective.
Jeff
IMHO, anyone who thinks a C4 or C5 is too hard to work on (wiring or otherwise) has never worked on one. Yes, they are more complicated than a C3, that's why I love my C3. BUT, they are not impossible, and the more FI and electronically controlled cars I work on the more I like and respect them. There may be more connectors, but they each one tends to be more unique and therefore easier to identify. My C3 has about 100 "clip-on" connectors, each like the other except MAYBE for the wire color. But if you haven't spent some time with a newer car it's hard to explain.
As far as collectibility...well, people were chunking C3s left and right not so long ago. This is easy to see from the condition so many of us found are cars in. Used up, abused, spit out, etc. but they are coming back. The C4 is one the way to a similar fate. I have a friend at work who has bought three C4s this year, each for less than about $4000 (one or two quite a bit less). They are abused, overworked, underappreciated, and in need of TLC. And he will give it to them. Each will be a nice car, and worth quite a bit more than what he paid.
I paid $2600 for my '74 in '97. My friends didn't get it...it was just on old Vette to them, essentially worthless. I have watched the values increase a fair bit while I restified mine to the show winning beauty that it is today. I love it, and so do alot of people I meet who see it, whether at shows or at the gas station filling up.
I bought a '96 Collector Edition coupe last week. It's something I've loved since they came out, and the prices finally hit where I thought it was a good deal. It's an LT4, one year only engine, Collector Edition, red interior (1 of something like 540), and hard loaded. Bone stock it is probably faster then my heavily modified '74. Do I think it will be collectible...I think it already is. Ask my dad about his plain jain (though very nice) '86 coupe. Corvettes are collectible, and will maintain some value no matter what age or condition, just some more than others.
There are some C4 and C5 owners who wouldn't own a C3 if you gave it to them. Of course, there are others who appreciate our cars. Value is subjective...a car is worth what someone will pay for it. There will be as many people (maybe more) with a passion for C4 and C5 Corvettes as there have been for all the other generations, the C4 passion is growing rapidly even as we speak.
Let's see...cars from the 80s that are worth something today...Buick Grand Nationals, Corvettes, some Camaros and Mustangs. Of course, people are starting to hot rod Malibus, Monte Carlos, even Impalas.
About aluminum...considering that most engines couldn't make it much past 100K or so back in the 60s and 70s without a rebuild, I think that you are incorrect. Alot of what contributes to the longevity of todays engines is the superior engine management systems (FI, computer controls, etc) that keep the dilution of the oil and cylinder washdown to a minimum. Ironically, we owe that technology to the quest for emissions reductions. My '76 Suburban was driven by an old man all of it's 89K miles when I got it. It got 7 mpg and smoked at startup because the valve guide seals were shot. My '96 Collector Edition Corvette uses no oil, and gets well over 20 mpg at 80K miles, probably much rougher miles (it is a sports car, after all, complete with aluminum heads).
I am rambling...and have been for quite a bit.
I see your point, but I think it is a bit narrow minded. Look at the big picture, ask yourself what your C3 is worth compared to it's value new, and think about it's longevity compared to today's vehicles.
It's all a matter of perspective.
Jeff
11-01-2002, 11:30 PM
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Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
I think the new vettes will do just like the old ones did. Depreciate to a certain level, hold that level and eventually start back up. Hell, I sold an 81 z28 in near perfect condition back in 90 for $2600. I see them now for twice that. It seems like 20 years is the mark for alot of these cars to bottom out and head up in value. What I like about the c5 is the ability to make over 300hp and idle smooth all day long with the ac on and get over 20mpg. Technology is always advancing. The c3s were way ahead of the original c1 with a six cylinder and 2spd powerglide. Does that mean chevy should have stopped at the c3. Change is cool and so are all vettes. :cool: :cheers:
11-01-2002, 11:51 PM
#10
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (mp77)
And your forgetting about inflation! The price of the car may exceed its sale price numerically but so what - We earn five times as much as when the C3's being sold
11-02-2002, 12:01 AM
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Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (no_radio)
no_radio...
Good answer. I can't disagree with what you *rambled* on about. It's all in our own preferences of what we enjoy. I too think the mid '90-'02 vettes are something that GM has done to keep the Corvette name as something that everyone enjoys seeing. They are beautiful cars.
And I completely agree with you that no matter what year many of them are going to be abused and left to rot. Luckily a few of them were put into the hands of people like yourself and the previous owner of the Vette that I own that are willing to bring them back to life. Ten years from now I can tell you that what you see today will be what you see then as I appreciate what time people take to restore cars and will keep them in that condition.
Hopefully I am wrong about GM and the C4/C5's.
Good answer. I can't disagree with what you *rambled* on about. It's all in our own preferences of what we enjoy. I too think the mid '90-'02 vettes are something that GM has done to keep the Corvette name as something that everyone enjoys seeing. They are beautiful cars.
And I completely agree with you that no matter what year many of them are going to be abused and left to rot. Luckily a few of them were put into the hands of people like yourself and the previous owner of the Vette that I own that are willing to bring them back to life. Ten years from now I can tell you that what you see today will be what you see then as I appreciate what time people take to restore cars and will keep them in that condition.
Hopefully I am wrong about GM and the C4/C5's.
11-02-2002, 12:18 AM
#12
Le Mans Master
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
Well to be honest, I for one would rather see every Corvette built being driven into the ground rather than the collector/speculator parking a new one and never letting it see the light of day. :smash:
AC
AC
11-02-2002, 08:57 AM
#14
Team Owner
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
bgrice, allthough I AM a fan of DPFI and most things electronic, I do agree the overkill in later cars C4-5 is a whole lot too much, and the wiring allthough fixable, gets to be a bit of a pain fixing everything when it starts smoking....now an '84 I looked at about a year or so ago was a 'beach' car, so that meant the corrosion was accelerated, but in fact all vettes will eventually get that way, just a matter of time....at any rate, the burnt connectors/connections/fuses/plugs and switches I saw in the fuse block and in the harness itself just about made the car un repairable...I had to get real creative to fix it 'right'....just NO other way around it....
all you NCRS types are going to be loving harnesses, this a harness for a C3 is a bit much??? hehe...you ain't seen nothing, yet....400 buck harnesses for a C3 are marginally justifyable....but 3000 buck harnesses made in China for a C4 will NOT be......
it's kinda like chasing original chrome......only we can't just take a burnt up harness and plate/paint it over and have it look new....now I do notice some of the newer computers are gold plated contacts, well that's nice, and should be done throughout the cars, but I suspect not....and it's the high current connections that corrode the brass and get hot that terminate the life of the harness, or make it a true PIA to fix....
add enough of them in there giving similar problems, and guys that are NOT ET's will just give up....even guys that ARE ET's will get frustrated...
now add those construction detail facts to the usual resto/preservation problems we all face, and......draw your own conclusions....
so NOW upon reading this all the C4-5 guys go park you car in the garage, and 'save' it....;-)))
GENE
all you NCRS types are going to be loving harnesses, this a harness for a C3 is a bit much??? hehe...you ain't seen nothing, yet....400 buck harnesses for a C3 are marginally justifyable....but 3000 buck harnesses made in China for a C4 will NOT be......
it's kinda like chasing original chrome......only we can't just take a burnt up harness and plate/paint it over and have it look new....now I do notice some of the newer computers are gold plated contacts, well that's nice, and should be done throughout the cars, but I suspect not....and it's the high current connections that corrode the brass and get hot that terminate the life of the harness, or make it a true PIA to fix....
add enough of them in there giving similar problems, and guys that are NOT ET's will just give up....even guys that ARE ET's will get frustrated...
now add those construction detail facts to the usual resto/preservation problems we all face, and......draw your own conclusions....
so NOW upon reading this all the C4-5 guys go park you car in the garage, and 'save' it....;-)))
GENE
11-02-2002, 09:31 AM
#15
Race Director
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age
you can bet on 1 thing:
30 years from now most c3's will not be on the street, and the coool cars will be restored c5's.
i noticed c1's have already disappeared.(except mine :D
30 years from now most c3's will not be on the street, and the coool cars will be restored c5's.
i noticed c1's have already disappeared.(except mine :D
11-02-2002, 09:41 AM
#16
Team Owner
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (Matt Gruber)
I dunno, Matt, by the thime the gummint messes with cars and such, and oil politics, we may not have the gasoline to run them anyway....
change out the old 350-454's for an atomic power pak and electric motor....
GENE
change out the old 350-454's for an atomic power pak and electric motor....
GENE
11-02-2002, 12:27 PM
#18
Melting Slicks
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Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (jerryp58)
:rolleyes: :sleep: :sleep: :bs
:rolleyes: :sleep: :sleep: :bs
:rolleyes: :sleep: :sleep: :bs
:rolleyes: :sleep: :sleep: :bs
11-02-2002, 02:36 PM
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Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (no_radio)
[QUOTE]....."There are some C4 and C5 owners who wouldn't own a C3 if you gave it to them. Of course, there are others who appreciate our cars. Value is subjective...a car is worth what someone will pay for it...." /QUOTE]
My very 1rst vette is my 90 and I do love it with a passion. HOWEVER I'm one of those guys that always DROOL whenever I see a C3. I have absolutely fallen in love with them ever since I was 12. Its a feverish high whenever I am lucky enough to see them on the raod, I always wave without fail, and the people driving them seem like the best folk around.
I agree- value IS subjective - enjoy the beauty that you have and try to keep it as long as possible. My next step is to get a 6 speed '96 LT4 and that will be a keeper for life. At the same time, what I really want also is a great C3 because its a huge part of the great Heritage that is CORVETTE :chevy :seeya :cheers: Hats of to ya all! :cool:
My very 1rst vette is my 90 and I do love it with a passion. HOWEVER I'm one of those guys that always DROOL whenever I see a C3. I have absolutely fallen in love with them ever since I was 12. Its a feverish high whenever I am lucky enough to see them on the raod, I always wave without fail, and the people driving them seem like the best folk around.
I agree- value IS subjective - enjoy the beauty that you have and try to keep it as long as possible. My next step is to get a 6 speed '96 LT4 and that will be a keeper for life. At the same time, what I really want also is a great C3 because its a huge part of the great Heritage that is CORVETTE :chevy :seeya :cheers: Hats of to ya all! :cool:
11-02-2002, 08:44 PM
#20
Drifting
Re: C3 values versus C4's & C5's and the rest of the high tech age (bgrice)
I like both the c3/c4 era ....The c3 always gets the most looks ...but the Zr1 is my choice to go fast in.....Drive what you like just as long as its a vette...save the wave :cheers: