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last thing I wanted to do was cover this in a dual snorkel ugly element.....
if what you are using works for you keep it.....my thoughts are until you try both on your engine its just a hypothetical argument if it benefits your engine/situation or not.
I don't have access to a dyno, and unless you have a dyno mounted on a moving flatbed trailer, or some other way of simulating running at speed, I'm not sure that is a valid test. If we stick to just comparing an open element to the later L82 dual snorkel setup, we are looking to find if there is an optimal solution, understanding that cold air is better, but less flow restriction is also better. It is possible (likely, I'd say), that the answer may be different for two different cars, and with a carb and distributor, you will be throwing away a lot of the optimization. I only have stock L48s at my disposal for testing, but I can imagine that at high RPM for a high HP car, the air flow restriction may be the limiting factor.
I ordered a MAP sensor (vacuum hose connection, same part as a 1982 Corvette), and the coolant temp and throttle position sensors spec'ed for the FiTech EFI system (GM parts from an early 90s Camaro). I have a GPS sensor that will record speed at 1 Hz (and display on an LCD like a certain DeLorean). I also have 4 thermocouples on an Arduino, but that is ALL that Arduino can do, so I will have two, or perhaps 3 Arduinos connected to a single laptop to record data. Not super efficient (there is a reason modern cars use the CAN bus!), but doable.
I'll have the thermocouples mounted in the following locations:
1. Ambient air (below front bumper)
2. Engine compartment ambient (mounted a few inches ahead of the firewall near the distributor)
3. Intake air (inside the air cleaner element, before the carb)
4. Coolant temp (taped to the upper radiator hose)
I'd expect a few highway runs in both configurations (L82 and open element), with the car at operating temp, hopefully on an overcast day with minimal temperature change during the experiment. There is a long hillclimb nearby that I can do for sustained higher load data.
I can then plot everything (up to 8 channels) on a single plot and compare.
Am I missing anything? Will the MAP sensor and TPS be sufficient to determine if there is a restriction loss from the intake? I don't have an easy way of getting a tach signal, not without converting to EFI, and an O2 sensor is probably 6 months away.
Its not really a big hit on a stock motor at all . the rule is ...for every 10 degrees below 70 * you get the incoming air , you can gain 1% in HP ..the difference above 70* air is practically zero.. so, if you can get the air incoming down to 50* , you will gain 2% over 70+* air.. .. lets say you have 300 HP... that's 6 hp gain.. its not spectacular gain.. and how much time do you spend at WOT? .. . gains from RAM Air are better but not at low speed.. put the air cleaner you want on it .
x2
Never tested underhood temps, but if an engine is running at say 200 degrees, the block and fan is radiating a lot of heat underhood. How is it possible underhood temps may be 75 degrees? I dont buy it.
If one had to buy the ultimate in GM snorkel air cleaners the ones off a 1 ton dually or 454 truck would be ideal...if it would fit. Those use a 3"? element and have a large snorkel.
I could never tell a difference between running a sealed cowl induction setup or not. Was there actually? Not enough to care
I don't know if this is true or not, lets say it is. Are you familiar with parasitic drag? The resistance air creates when an object travels through it.
Most people don't think about it.
In aviation it's a big factor. And is also the reason an aircraft can achieve a much higher true airspeed at a higher altitude despite the significant loss of power from the engine by operating at that altitude.
So if your statement is accurate that would be my guess as to why it is so. The air presents a huge amount of drag on a moving vehicle, the faster it goes the drag increases geometrically (basically, there is a formula) so it's not a linear relationship.
Check probe #4 on my test at idle. Water temp 180* air temp behind rad 172*. Pretty close wouldn't you say? Of course the rad is not designed to cool to ambient, sheesh.
Yes it does actually, just not significantly at the speeds we are operating at typically.
What gets better is that the volume of air through the rad increases allowing for a greater heat exchange increasing the effeciency of cooling.
Look I understand you like your under hood set up and stock fan and want to keep it. So be it.
But even you admitted to having some ping at times with your engine. Why is that? I'm running more compression than you and never have any ping, even with 87 octane.
I'll wager a contributing factor is your intake sucking up hot air.
.
Why are you comparing aircraft with C3's? Apples and oranges.
Yes, I can eliminate my ping if I detune my engine but I would be giving up lots of HP. Once again, NO HOT AIR! Talk about non-believers, sheesh! Anyway, my ping is at light load, not wot, so its not an issue by any means. Btw, had yours on a dyno yet? That gives everyone a better comparison between their builds. Note, my dyno numbers are posted in another thread and were achieved with the open element in place which better simulates actual road conditions i.e. no rad seals, ambient air flowing over the rad and engine and into the carb. Like it or not, that's the way it is.
Anyway, when I come back from a day of cruising, I can open my hood and place my hand on top of my air cleaner and its NOT hot. Only way that can be is because cooler outside air is reaching my open element which also means cool air is getting to the carb and also removing the heat generated by the engine. Are you getting it, Reeve? Again, Ignatz proved that in the same way you proved that you have lots of heat under your hood. All I can say is enjoy the heat, lol.
x2
Never tested underhood temps, but if an engine is running at say 200 degrees, the block and fan is radiating a lot of heat underhood. How is it possible underhood temps may be 75 degrees? I dont buy it. e
because that's NOT WHAT I SAID.. I was referring to gains from cold air intakes compared to under hood.. if its 70* outside, the CAI is bringing in 70* air.. pretty simple right?.. and just because your coolant is 200*, do not assume the air moving thru engine compartment while under WOT at 80mph, is 200* ..in fact its probably less than 90* .. the difference is small between the two air cleaners .. use what you like and BTW..if its 95* outside, what good is your CAI??
Last edited by fishslayer143; 08-01-2018 at 06:48 PM.
Why are you comparing aircraft with C3's? Apples and oranges.
Yes, I can eliminate my ping if I detune my engine but I would be giving up lots of HP. Once again, NO HOT AIR! Talk about non-believers, sheesh! Anyway, my ping is at light load, not wot, so its not an issue by any means. Btw, had yours on a dyno yet? That gives everyone a better comparison between their builds. Note, my dyno numbers are posted in another thread and were achieved with the open element in place which better simulates actual road conditions i.e. no rad seals, ambient air flowing over the rad and engine and into the carb. Like it or not, that's the way it is.
Anyway, when I come back from a day of cruising, I can open my hood and place my hand on top of my air cleaner and its NOT hot. Only way that can be is because cooler outside air is reaching my open element which also means cool air is getting to the carb and also removing the heat generated by the engine. Are you getting it, Reeve? Again, Ignatz proved that in the same way you proved that you have lots of heat under your hood. All I can say is enjoy the heat, lol.
exactly ..of course its not hot .. air is moving , BY DESIGN, thru engine compartment at the speed you are moving.. underhood temps are no where near coolant temps.. only if you sit ,idling will temps climb and you are not making horsepower idling so the comparison is pointless
Look.....I kind of gave up on these threads a time ago back because people want to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.....I did all the testing and all the measuring I did with probes inside the bowl for air temps and pressures and no matter what you want to believe no matter how many times you tell yourself ....the fact is that the cold air intakes actually work ...the under hood temperature at 50...80 ....miles an hour are significantly, again significantly higher than outside temperatures... it is near what it is at idol
Also an air intake that is bilt correctly will have a ram affect also the measurements I did on mine in bowl pressure the difference was a positive .2psi over open air element
But I’m pretty much done arguing with everybody about it I didn’t put that much time that much money in that much effort into making all these damn things just to find out it did nothing sorry it does I went out and bought all the equipment I did all the test I spent days on it
Look.....I kind of gave up on these threats a time I go back Because people want to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.....I did all the testing and all the measuring I did with probes inside the bowl for air temps and pressures and no matter what you want to believe no matter how many times you tell yourself ....the fact is that the cold air intakes actually work ...the under hood temperature at 50...80 ....miles an hour are significantly, again significantly higher than outside temperatures... it is near what it is at idol
Also an air intake that is bilt correctly will have a ram affect also the measurements I did on mine in bowl pressure the difference was a positive .2psi over open air element
But I’m pretty much done arguing with everybody about it I didn’t put that much time that much money in that much effort into making all these damn things just to find out it did nothing sorry it does I went out and bought all the equipment I did all the test I spent days on it
Bottom line, you’d need to test the same car using quarter mile trap speed, comparing an open element v L82 snorkel v your CAI system. Considering you can only potentially “gain” 1hp for every 10 degree drop in temp, I doubt you’d see the L82 out perform an open element (in fact, I’d wager the L82 system would cost power on a high HP build due to air restriction). If your CAI can build enough pressure in the last half of the 1/4 mile, it might be worth it.
Look.....I kind of gave up on these threats a time I go back Because people want to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.....I did all the testing and all the measuring I did with probes inside the bowl for air temps and pressures and no matter what you want to believe no matter how many times you tell yourself ....the fact is that the cold air intakes actually work ...the under hood temperature at 50...80 ....miles an hour are significantly, again significantly higher than outside temperatures... it is near what it is at idol
Also an air intake that is bilt correctly will have a ram affect also the measurements I did on mine in bowl pressure the difference was a positive .2psi over open air element
But I’m pretty much done arguing with everybody about it I didn’t put that much time that much money in that much effort into making all these damn things just to find out it did nothing sorry it does I went out and bought all the equipment I did all the test I spent days on it
Remove your rad seals, put on an open element and test again. Apples and oranges. Electric fans pointing towards the ground don't help either with under hood heat removal.
Bottom line, you’d need to test the same car using quarter mile trap speed, comparing an open element v L82 snorkel v your CAI system. Considering you can only potentially “gain” 1hp for every 10 degree drop in temp, I doubt you’d see the L82 out perform an open element (in fact, I’d wager the L82 system would cost power on a high HP build due to air restriction). If your CAI can build enough pressure in the last half of the 1/4 mile, it might be worth it.
And thus the reason I gave up...
last reply to this... The auto industry does NOT spend money that does not have some sort of payback.. A CAI cost money... they could do what they did years back and just have an under hood filter.. but no... you will NOT find any new car not build with CAI... wonder why??? maybe a little more power? maybe a little more MPG? maybe a little less ping in hot weather??? maybe all of them? Why do the manufacture spend that extra money?? cuz they just like the looks???
Originally Posted by resdoggie
Remove your rad seals, put on an open element and test again. Apples and oranges. Electric fans pointing towards the ground don't help either with under hood heat removal.
Remove the radiator seals????? lol... really??? and then over heat, yea that will work great... as we all know the C3 without the seals cooling super sucks. and no.. still not going to work,, just no... the frigen headers alone are like 400*!!! on each tube...
Okay, I got sick of the speculation and did a pre-experiment myself on my wife's 79. She was excited to help, since she's a tremendous nerd too.
(All temperatures in Fahrenheit)
BLUF, highway conditions:
86 Ambient Temp (measured ahead of radiator, between headlight actuators)
153 Temperature in engine compartment (measured on passenger side behind air filter)
153 Temperature at carb (measured inside air filter, above carburetor)
177 Coolant temp (measured at top of upper radiator hose)
Conclusion: Yes, it is freakin' hot inside the engine compartment. Enough air is NOT moving around in there. My wife wants the L82 system in her car, too.
Pertinent details:
We collected a LOT of data, which I'll need to graph, and probably post on a build thread, or start a new thread.
Data was collected at dusk, so sunlight heating was not a concern. The headlights were on an open during the test. My wife's car is a 1979 L48 auto, with an open element air filter. The stock CAI is missing, as is any replacement seals at the top of the radiator (you can see in the photos), so plenty of air can make its way around the radiator and into the engine compartment. The above temperatures were recorded at highway speeds. Lower numbers, but a similar spread, were noted at lower speeds on the fine roads in Northern Virginia. The highest temperatures were noted when we parked for a few minutes right after the highway run.
People just desperately need to prove the their fancy special cold air intakes actually make a difference in driving a car on the streets that that all they can do is pretend their "lab experiments" prove something. But in reality, its a one sided, narrow focus on very specific conditions that do not apply to the wide variety of engines, installations, configurations, etc that exist in the real world. When you try to bring up these differences, they remain steadfast that the rest of us are fools. As for modern cars using CAI as the "proof", it too is invalid. Its apples and oranges. An honest comparison could only be made with same car, same temp, same day, same hour, with very accurate and honest dyno equipment, and then do the same with a CAI and then with open filter. And that experiment would ONLY be accurate for that same car,....not every other configuration, installation, etc.
Lastly, in the real world , where we are not on a race track, trying to win a race, with the speed limits and responsible driving on the streets of America, any gain by a CAI, even if I would accept it under the conditions I listed above......is absolutely irrelevant. and I challenge if anyone could feel the difference. Just like a lot of other wiz bang "performance" mods,.......its irrelevant hoopla for 99% of the actual time driving our cars and simply makes money for the company selling the stuff. Put your fancy CAI on your car,......go out and push the gas pedal down and tell me you can feel a difference....I doubt it. I have done this on cars......NO DIFFERENCE, except my bank account has less money in it. It is a typical engineering theoretical concept that is meaningless in reality. But, if it makes you feel good, or that your car is better than others.......its America. You are free....for now.
Last edited by Torqued Off; 08-01-2018 at 11:05 PM.
People just desperately need to prove the their fancy special cold air intakes actually make a difference in driving a car on the streets that that all they can do is pretend their "lab experiments" prove something. But in reality, its a one sided, narrow focus on very specific conditions that do not apply to the wide variety of engines, installations, configurations, etc that exist in the real world. When you try to bring up these differences, they remain steadfast that the rest of us are fools. As for modern cars using CAI as the "proof", it too is invalid. Its apples and oranges. An honest comparison could only be made with same car, same temp, same day, same hour, with very accurate and honest dyno equipment, and then do the same with a CAI and then with open filter. And that experiment would ONLY be accurate for that same car,....not every other configuration, installation, etc.
Lastly, in the real world , where we are not on a race track, trying to win a race, with the speed limits and responsible driving on the streets of America, any gain by a CAI, even if I would accept it under the conditions I listed above......is absolutely irrelevant and I challenge if anyone could feel the difference. Just like a lot of other wiz bang "performance" mods,.......its irrelevant hoopla for 99% of the actual time driving our cars. Put your fancy CAI on your car,......go out and push the gas pedal down and tell me you can feel a difference....I doubt it. I have done this on cars......NO DIFFERENCE, except my bank account has less money in it.
The L82 system is STOCK on my 1980. It doesn't cost a dime, other than to restore it (and buy new accordions, perhaps). I did my testing in real world conditions, responsibly, on the streets of America. This was not a lab experiment, it was a prototype demonstration in an operational environment (the counter-prototype, really), and the test isn't complete until I repeat as you described (same car, conditions, change one variable, and collect additional data).
A dyno pull (especially without 80 mph air blasting in to the front of the car), or even a drag race would be a lab experiment. Steady-state cruising temperatures under your hood are as real-world as it gets.
The L82 system is STOCK on my 1980. It doesn't cost a dime, other than to restore it (and buy new accordions, perhaps). I did my testing in real world conditions, responsibly, on the streets of America. This was not a lab experiment, it was a prototype demonstration in an operational environment (the counter-prototype, really), and the test isn't complete until I repeat as you described (same car, conditions, change one variable, and collect additional data).
A dyno pull (especially without 80 mph air blasting in to the front of the car), or even a drag race would be a lab experiment. Steady-state cruising temperatures under your hood are as real-world as it gets.
And as I said, you tell me when you get done with your experiment that when you go out and drive responsibly on the streets that you feel a difference in one type of filter over the factory CAI.....you may find out it turns out opposite of what you thing....BUT understand this....I do not take my RPM to 6000 RPM on every gear change of my factory 4-speed / 355 rear end......so that is the reality I am talking about. Maybe you do, maybe some do, but again.....its irrelevant for the 99% of the population. I am not belittling you, I am simply trying to bring reality into this discussion. These ideas typically come with wannabee race car drivers and engineers who focus on things like this, with theoretical technical details to attempt to justify their better idea. But in the real world of driving a C3 Corvette, it is all useless and irrelevant.
How about this....in this analysis, did the experts consider the weight difference of the cold air induction versus open filter?. Did they consider the blockage of airflow through the ventilated engine compartment of a C3 corvette that a cold air induction system provides? Or maybe, if you just drive the car with half tank of gas on a regular basis, you will see the same acceleration advantage? Or maybe not eat lunch before driving?
Last edited by Torqued Off; 08-01-2018 at 11:00 PM.
And thus the reason I gave up...
last reply to this... The auto industry does NOT spend money that does not have some sort of payback.. A CAI cost money... they could do what they did years back and just have an under hood filter.. but no... you will NOT find any new car not build with CAI... wonder why??? maybe a little more power? maybe a little more MPG? maybe a little less ping in hot weather??? maybe all of them? Why do the manufacture spend that extra money?? cuz they just like the looks???
Remove the radiator seals????? lol... really??? and then over heat, yea that will work great... as we all know the C3 without the seals cooling super sucks. and no.. still not going to work,, just no... the frigen headers alone are like 400*!!! on each tube...
bolded true
Ah, I’m not disputing the value of a car manufacturer’s “cold air induction” on modern vehicles (though very few new vehicles actually have a true cold air system, but mostly a tube with a filter in a restrictive box, hence why the aftermarket sees an easy sale by making their own versions, which are just primarily less restrictive, but that’s not the point).
While you’ve designed a very nice looking unit, the point of my post was to actually put this question to rest..open air cleaner v L82 snorkel v your premium air induction unit, and test at the drag strip. No need to take samples of air temp around the engine compartment, which clearly there is a dispute over.
Seems to me you’d get a hell of a lot of interest in your air induction system if it improved trap speeds, even by 1 or 2 mph.
EDIT: My 17’ GT350 has, from the factory, a cold air induction. Air inlet temp into the engine is 5-20 degrees warmer than ambient (highway driving, otherwise it quickly rises to very hot). That’s pretty good. So good, aftermarket attempts to better the factory system have been dismal failures. So, I agree, they can work.
Last edited by AirBusPilot; 08-01-2018 at 10:58 PM.
And as I said, you tell me when you get done with your experiment that when you go out and drive responsibly on the streets that you feel a difference in one type of filter over the factory CAI.....you may find out it turns out opposite of what you thing....BUT understand this....I do not take my RPM to 6000 RPM on every gear change of my factory 4-speed / 355 rear end......so that is the reality I am talking about. Maybe you do, maybe some do, but again.....its irrelevant for the 99% of the population. I am not belittling you, I am simply trying to bring reality into this discussion. These ideas typically come with wannabee race car drivers and engineers who focus on things like this, with theoretical technical details to attempt to justify their better idea. But in the real world of driving a C3 Corvette, it is all useless and irrelevant.
How about this....in this analysis, did the experts consider the weight difference of the cold air induction versus open filter?. Did they consider the blockage of airflow through the ventilated engine compartment of a C3 corvette that a cold air induction system provides? Or maybe, if you just drive the car with half tank of gas on a regular basis, you will see the same acceleration advantage? Or maybe not eat lunch before driving?
Originally Posted by AirBusPilot
FYI, I do race, my 2 boys and I have 5 corvettes we race,,, the C3 I road race competes with C6z' and C7's and while in the corners they have a slight advantage due to not enough rubber (this is being fixed) I out pull on them in the straights and equal on braking/// I do see 7000RPM and my EFI monitors air inlet temps.. and as the test showed in a previous post, I stay about 0-5* above out side temps. also, on real world testing, my unit achieved a positive .2psi bowl pressure increases over open element. if you can not grasp/understand that a denser air charge increases horse power I would suggest you read up on it. a super charger and turbo charger does just that,puts in a denser air charge.. colder air in denser, more pressure, i.e. turbo ram air, is more dense. why do people pay big bucks for a intercooler? all it does is cool down the inlet charge??? lol,,,, come on.. think about it..
Ah, I’m not disputing the value of a car manufacturer’s “cold air induction” on modern vehicles (though very few new vehicles actually have a true cold air system, but mostly a tube with a filter in a restrictive box, hence why the aftermarket sees an easy sale by making their own versions, which are just primarily less restrictive, but that’s not the point).
While you’ve designed a very nice looking unit, the point of my post was to actually put this question to rest..open air cleaner v L82 snorkel v your premium air induction unit, and test at the drag strip. No need to take samples of air temp around the engine compartment, which clearly there is a dispute over.
Seems to me you’d get a hell of a lot of interest in your air induction system if it improved trap speeds, even by 1 or 2 mph.
EDIT: My 17’ GT350 has, from the factory, a cold air induction. Air inlet temp into the engine is 5-20 degrees warmer than ambient (highway driving, otherwise it quickly rises to very hot). That’s pretty good. So good, aftermarket attempts to better the factory system have been dismal failures. So, I agree, they can work.
As stated above, there is NO restriction in my box or any well designed box.
also as stated above my unit actually showed a .2psi increases of pressure in the bowl vs an open air filter.. I would say that is the opposite of restrictive.. imho
As stated above, there is NO restriction in my box or any well designed box.
also as stated above my unit actually showed a .2psi increases of pressure in the bowl vs an open air filter.. I would say that is the opposite of restrictive.. imho
i agree.
Gale Banks once said for every pound of boost, you gain 7% hp.
.2 psi x 7% = 1.4%
That’s 6 hp for my car (rwhp). Then add say, a 60 degree reduction in air temp. Rule of thumb, 1 hp per 10* temp change, that’s another 6 hp (very rough numbers here).
So, 12 potential hp. A little over 1mph in trap speed increase.
Okay, I got sick of the speculation and did a pre-experiment myself on my wife's 79. She was excited to help, since she's a tremendous nerd too.
(All temperatures in Fahrenheit)
BLUF, highway conditions:
86 Ambient Temp (measured ahead of radiator, between headlight actuators)
153 Temperature in engine compartment (measured on passenger side behind air filter)
153 Temperature at carb (measured inside air filter, above carburetor)
177 Coolant temp (measured at top of upper radiator hose)
Conclusion: Yes, it is freakin' hot inside the engine compartment. Enough air is NOT moving around in there. My wife wants the L82 system in her car, too.
Pertinent details:
We collected a LOT of data, which I'll need to graph, and probably post on a build thread, or start a new thread.
Data was collected at dusk, so sunlight heating was not a concern. The headlights were on an open during the test. My wife's car is a 1979 L48 auto, with an open element air filter. The stock CAI is missing, as is any replacement seals at the top of the radiator (you can see in the photos), so plenty of air can make its way around the radiator and into the engine compartment. The above temperatures were recorded at highway speeds. Lower numbers, but a similar spread, were noted at lower speeds on the fine roads in Northern Virginia. The highest temperatures were noted when we parked for a few minutes right after the highway run.
your tests confirm what Pauldana and I know , and what the other folks have yet to learn. Thank you.
And yes, the earth is NOT flat.
Gale Banks once said for every pound of boost, you gain 7% hp.
.2 psi x 7% = 1.4%
That’s 6 hp for my car (rwhp). Then add say, a 60 degree reduction in air temp. Rule of thumb, 1 hp per 10* temp change, that’s another 6 hp (very rough numbers here).
So, 12 potential hp. A little over 1mph in trap speed increase.
You still selling those kits?
You are dead nuts on... and BTW, great math! Thank you...
That math is like 16hp for me:-)
yes
Originally Posted by REELAV8R
your tests confirm what Pauldana and I know , and what the other folks have yet to learn. Thank you.
And yes, the earth is NOT flat.
why some see this as a difficult concept evades me, ,,,,
god, I can not believe i got roped into this again,, lol
07-31-2018, 09:13 PM
